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Chemtrail Debunkers....

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posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by firepilot
 


OK I concede the conditions in the upper atmosphere may have been different but it's interesting you made no comment on the other point I made in that post.
Pick holes in what you can and sidestep the rest or just ignore it.
You should keep track of what you say when answering questions so that when you sidestep it don't come up and bite you in the ass.


Well, your posts are rather unorganized with little coherency, so its going to be hard to address everything from memory when I do so. The more organized you make it, and the more salient your points are, and the more logical in its thoughts, it will be easier to hit all the points.

But like I said, I do not debate peoples emotions, perceptions and memories, I stick to rational ideas, science, data, and specifics.




posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


I see you haven't done a lot of research on it Mathius? Doug Richardson of Jane's withdrew his initial assessment. He was initially fooled by perspective as seen on the video. I take it that you haven't seen the webcam still from LAX or the footage from Hermosa Beach? Not everything that appear to rise vertically is actually doing so.

Read up on how edited video on a slow news day was used simply for ratings. Ask yourself why neither the people living in the island off the coast, Air Traffic Controllers at LAX, or residents rushed to the media to report this ballistic missile roaring into the sky?

How the tape was edited and presented.

www.freerepublic.com...

TJ



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by Argyll
 


i have never called or accused you of being a government shill and respect the way in which you conduct yourself when posting your reply's which is more than I can say about some here.
My point is that some here will pick something I say in a post and rip it apart but ignore the rest of the post.
Also it annoys me when a member says to me that the air traffic going criss cross the sky is normal as I'm so say under a very busy air route and when I posted earlier that today there where no planes criss crossing and no long lasting trails from the planes going over on the route I spoke about and asked where were the planes that criss cross the sky which they told me was normal air traffic and they just ignored it.
I also posted about 2nd world war planes and the possibility that chemical warfare may well have been used and again they picked apart the rest of the post and ignored that part.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


You underestimate me I am one of the lucky people that can recall all that I see and read and again you sidestep the question and cover it by saying I'm emotional irrational and question my perception.
You trust your science if you want it's not as if science theory's have never been proved wrong.
Its a shame because I thought that you had more about you but I see now that you attack what you can and ignore
the rest.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


And that shows you how perspective and an edited video of an aircraft contrail can be misinterpreted. It didn't fool Rear Admiral John Stufflebeem, retired US Navy. Rear Admiral Stufflebeem gave TV interviews after reviewing the footage.

www.navy.mil...

Why not contact him and ask his expert opinion?

johnstufflebeem.blogspot.com...

TJ



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by Argyll
 


i have never called or accused you of being a government shill and respect the way in which you conduct yourself when posting your reply's which is more than I can say about some here.
My point is that some here will pick something I say in a post and rip it apart but ignore the rest of the post.
Also it annoys me when a member says to me that the air traffic going criss cross the sky is normal as I'm so say under a very busy air route and when I posted earlier that today there where no planes criss crossing and no long lasting trails from the planes going over on the route I spoke about and asked where were the planes that criss cross the sky which they told me was normal air traffic and they just ignored it.
I also posted about 2nd world war planes and the possibility that chemical warfare may well have been used and again they picked apart the rest of the post and ignored that part.



Its because you are lacking one important thing, namely that is EVIDENCE.

If you are going to assert that the traffic is not normal, then give proof of it, rather than just an opinion. Give something that shows it is not normal, rather than expect people to just take the opinion of someone

If you are going to allege that World War II bombers were conducting chemical warfare and that was maybe their contrails, then give evidence of that. An allegation without any evidence, is meaningless. You are just speculating that the contrails were not real contrails, but you have ZERO evidence of proof of it. The only place that came from, was your imagination.

And I did pick the rest of it apart, because it was also baseless. Piston engines made persistent contrails too, they both have a fuel/air combustion that results in hot air and water as a byproduct. That is not my opinion, that is not speculation, that is fact.

That is the problem with so many chemtrailers, instead of giving concrete facts, logic and science ,so much of it is just speculation and opinions, with no facts behind it.

You are the only person in the world, who has ever alleged that WW2 bomber contrails, may have been chemical weapons programs. Thats not how you spray anything either, from 30,000+ ft that those B-17s flew from.

What about the B-36? It flew after WW2, and it made lots of contrails. Was that secret chemical weapons tests too?
edit on 18-3-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


I gave you prof when I posted the clip to -tube of the planes criss crossing so although you dismiss it as evidence of chemtrail's it dose prove that the air planes where there and today there where none flying in this way today.
Now wouldn't you agree that's strange that so much air traffic for 4 day's and then nothing today and no long lasting contrail's from the planes on the route I had said passed over my house.
edit on 18-3-2011 by djcarlosa because: correcting a mistake



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Well if you think that your friend's contrail info is correct then why not debate it on the following?

www.pprune.org...

On the PPRuNe you will find current serving and ex-serving military personnel. Everything from test pilots to decorated fighter pilots. I served 22 years in the RAF and 4 years in the Royal Observer Corps. If you do your research on the Royal Observer Corps you will see the history of that unit and in relation to observations of the sky and aircraft in it. Contrails can last a lot longer in the sky than your friend claims.

Why not take up the challenge and put the question to a large number of civilian and military aircrew and pilots over at PPRuNe?

Here is one test pilot that you can pose the question to? John Farley. He was the Chief Test Pilot on the Harrier.

www.pprune.org...

Here is John Farley explaining how a Harrier functions.



Here is John posting in reference to the Mintra level.

www.pprune.org...

Note the contrails picture from 1957 during a mass exercise.



TJ




edit on 18-3-2011 by tommyjo because: Additional info added



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by tommyjo
 


Thanks for the site and to prove that I'm not as closed minded as you think I will check it out tomorrow as its late here.
You say you served in the RAF may I ask which trade you trained in not because I don't believe you just interested.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


No you are absolutely correct dj, you have never directly called me a "shill" or "dis-info agent", but the point I was making is that a lot of the "chemtrail believers" (I hate using that phrase, but there is no other really) have insinuated that anyone who believes that "chemtrails" are in fact a perfectly normal occurrence, comfortably explained by simple science, are making these claims because they are, as I said earlier, either government shills or dis-info agents.......that is madness!

I think someone alluded earlier in this thread to the fact that, if TPTB, shadow governments whatever,whoever, wanted to poison us, then surely they would put what ever you think they are putting in aviation fuel into auto mobile fuel?......how easy would that be?

There really is no conspiracy here, look at some of the reasons for contrails coming out on this thread.........I'm not saying you subscribe to this, but, does anyone seriously think that the governments of this world are spraying chemicals into he atmosphere to hide a mythical planet hiding behind the sun?



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by tommyjo
 


Also I noticed you where replying to posts by mathias but he mailed me earlier to say he's been banned from posting so can't reply I only hope that they let him return soon.
The reason I'm telling you this is so that you don't think he's avoiding the point's you make he is just unable to answer you.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


No problem. I was an Intelligence Analyst in the RAF. Trade Group 11. The trade went through a number of titles before its current title of Intelligence Analyst. Prior to this rename my trade was known as Communications Systems Analyst.

TJ



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Thanks. I bet he is chomping at the bit? He only has himself to blame for receiving yet another ban!

TJ



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by Argyll
 


I agree with you wholeheartedly about the use of government shill or disinfo agent as a reply to a post is wrong and I have never used those word's in any of my post's in reply to someone else.
Now as to your post about nibiru I am of the mind that it is implausible but not impossible after all I would rather entertain the possibility than dismiss it out of hand and get caught short and you must agree that the earth has become more active in the last 2 years.
I do believe wholehearted that a pole shift will occur soon though as this to me seams to be a better explanation to what's going on all over the planet.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


But have you been linking your sightings to Plane Plotter or Flight Aware? There is a delay of about 5-8 minutes on Flight Aware. You are now aware that UN14 Upper Air Route is above you so why not link your sightings up to Flight Aware? On the transatlantic flights you can see the full flight plan. The aircraft are still routing through your area using UN14. All you are observing is different conditions at altitude affecting the persistence of the contrails.

TJ



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by firepilot
 


I gave you prof when I posted the clip to -tube of the planes criss crossing so although you dismiss it as evidence of chemtrail's it dose prove that the air planes where there and today there where none flying in this way today.
Now wouldn't you agree that's strange that so much air traffic for 4 day's and then nothing today and no long lasting contrail's from the planes on the route I had said passed over my house.
edit on 18-3-2011 by djcarlosa because: correcting a mistake


Planes paths crossing means absolutely nothing. Do you actually think planes are supposed to never cross paths? And how is this evidence of spraying?

Do you realize that planes that spray insecticide or herbicide for example - actual spraying aircraft - do it at low level, on carefully designed routes that DO NOT CROSS, or make X's. Why do crossing trails mean something sinister?

Here is a bit of advice, and I mean this sincerely. Its not just you, its other chemtrailers, and the tactic is just to throw as many things up in a posting as possible, thinking that hopefully some of them are correct, and its a lot more claims and speculation, than evidence.

Worry less about making as many claims as possible, and try more to back up and provide documentation for the ones that you do make. You make think its unfair that people do not look at all of you statements after you make a big error, but thats human nature. You can have 10 points you make, but if the first one is false, the rest get skipped.

So, make less, and provide logical statements. Its far better to make 1 good point that you can back up, rather than posting a number of them that have no evidence to back them up
edit on 18-3-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by tommyjo
 


Yes he certainly not happy with being banned thankyou for telling me what you did in the RAF and in so doing I have to say sorry if in any earlier posts I have come across as disrespectful.
I know we may never agree on the subject in hand but I will say that I respect you more now.
I will still look for prof and I will still be here debating this subject as my view point has not changed and I hope that if I can find prof you will show me the same respect.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


That is exactly the type of post that makes you out as a novice when discussing aviation. Piston engines can and do produce contrails.

You are obviously stumbling on webpages such as Tanker Enemys WW2 'chemtrail' page. That page is an absolute joke. It really is no wonder that people don't take chemtrailers seriously! And now you are implying that the WW2 footage actually shows Mustard Gas dispersal at high altitude?

www.tankerenemy.com...

This footage isn't from WW2. Those two privately owned P-51 Mustangs in the following video are cruising at high altitude. That isn't smoke or oil!



Webpage describing the background of the P-51 contrail flight.

www.cebudanderson.com...

TJ


edit on 18-3-2011 by tommyjo because: Malformed vid link corrected

edit on 18-3-2011 by tommyjo because: Additional info added



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by tommyjo
 


I never said that a piston engine wouldn't leave a contrail just that the kind of contrail would be different.
The fuel used would be different and that piston engines in ww2 planes where not as efficient in the way they used fuel and oil therefore there contrail's would be a mixture of fumes oil and unspent fuel.
Now a jet engine is a far more efficient and the contrail's left by them would therefore be different.
That was the point I was trying to get across.
also I would like to point out that I said that is it not possible that chemical weapons where used during ww2 after all mustard gas was used in the first,not that mustard gas was sprayed by ww2 planes.
edit on 18-3-2011 by djcarlosa because: added info

I do wish that people would read what is wrote properly before posting there reply and miss quoting me.

edit on 18-3-2011 by djcarlosa because: added info



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:44 PM
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I saw SEVERAL of these today, in action in Pittsburgh.

Airplanes flying what looked to be straight up into the air, and then straight back down leaving these trails. They often left 'X' marks.

Or, they'd go horizontally & then disappear into the clouds, only reappearing as they go straight back up. I took several pictures. Seriously. What is going on?




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