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Chemtrail Debunkers....

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posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by coyotepoet
 


I'm surprised it's so low - I got into debunking on dedicated chemtrail debunk sites - here on ATS I have found so much drivel I have been unable to read it without taking umbrage on many other topics.

Ideally I'd have had 100% on chemtrails....but I'm a sucker for getting persisted off at stupidity!




posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 





I don't give a rotund rodent's rectum about those apples - why should I?


If you're a legitimate skeptic instead of a paid disinfo agent you shouldn't. But with a chemtrail thread post percentage of 58% of 691 posts being on chemtrail threads spouting the same lines it really makes a person wonder. U2U count on spreading this info is up to 8 "chemmies" and counting
edit on 17-3-2011 by coyotepoet because: (no reason given)



Ahh, the "paid disinfo agent" moniker, what would a chemtrail thread be without chemtrailers trotting that out. What kind of delusional world do chemtrailers live in, when they think they no one actualy disagrees with them, and the only ones seen doing it, it because of getting paid.

What would be some interesting statistics? How about the number of times the same debunked photos appear
Or the number of chemtrailers who can state the average level of Al and Ba in the ground.
Or how many chemtrailers can talk about aviation without looking foolish.
Or how many chemtrailers think that the majority of air pollution at the ground is from high flying airplanes.
Or the percentage of chemtrailers who will admit to having posted hoaxed photos



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by miconATSrender
 


What don't you like?.......the condensation in the atmosphere that is formed from the aircraft exhausts?


Yes. I don't like the way they are clouding the skies. Do you like it? Does anyone like it?
It's more than condensation, its pollution. It has to be worse than car exhaust. I guess we should feel lucky our cars don't leave trails.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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not a single debunkers has even mentioned any possibility of what they thought happened the day i was in the cemetary .. instead people said i did not understand what i was seeing. or acted like they knew what i witnessed and therefore tried to explain by asking for proof i knew it was a chemtrail... it could of very will been a massive cloud of bird# for all i know(giggles) but i know that there were no planes overhead at the moment cropdusting, it was a very strange day here in northern california as far as skies go, people around me were getting ill or feeling uneasy, and we witnessed planes leaving huge trails that turned into wide clouds and joined together also lower near where we were at it misted down on me...like im freaking blind haha can one not comprehend not feeling well seeing unusual activity in the sky and strange mist then investigate what it was by narrowing down what it could of been then several weeks if not months of asking friends and family and online friends and forums about this issue all while investigating the chemtrail phenomenom only to come to the conclusion that one feel it is chemtrails...... its a great example of how when you try to speak upon the subject you get blind sided by negative comments immidiatly when from a solid experience... you debunkers really dismiss anyone who you feel you cannot manipulate into believing what you believe in. Good luck with that... and keep looking up in denial...no one says they are spraying chemtrails everyday across every city all around the world... just the fact they do indeed some days spray some suspicious stuff in teh sky and im curius as to whats it for and why they would do such a dirty deed.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 
www.id.uscourts.gov...
Mediation -

A form of alternative dispute resolution in which the parties bring their dispute to a neutral third party, who helps them agree on a settlement.


Before attempting to give "evidence" and prove it as facts for each item on the long list of items you requested and deemed necessary in order to satisfy your "burden of proof." I would prefer to first get past the simple task of coming to a
"consensus ad idem" and " Prima facie case"

In finding a "consensus ad idem" we can resolve a lot of the argument between "chemmies" and "debunkers". In proving conditions for a " Prima facie case" the "burden of proof" is usually quite low.

But we can't even seem to get past those points which are most simple. My first point I'd like to make is that cloud seeding is in fact Geo engineering which is in fact one type of "Chemtrail".

It would be nice if the other members of ATS (specifically the debunkers) gave their "consent" to treat this topic in a more civilized legal manner. And to treat it with some respect. Not just for the people presenting the evidence but the evidence as well. And to analyze, examine and discuss the pros and cons politely without the derogatory insinuations and innuendos. Without the mockery, the disdain, the crude dismissals and the subtle denials. From here on I hereby agree to follow those guidelines that I am, myself requesting of all the debunkers.

In simple legal terms it's called "discovery". Not presuming any of the facts into evidence or any of the evidence as facts (like current contrail science is fact or chemtrails don't exist) or the details of those facts (like all chemtrails are really just contrails or the purpose of chemtrails). It is supposed to be about disclosure and discussion and then agreeing upon and compiling what can later be referred to as "stipulations"

Second I would prefer to prove the facts in a step by step process rather than all at once. But so far it has been impossible to get past the first stages of "discovery" and some of the most simplest of tasks here. Due to the constant negative comments and behavior by both sides myself included.

I would just like to get past the idea that some persistent contrails ( the ones that last for many hours and now even days ) are not your normal contrails. They don't always occur under the expected conditions for contrails. They contain particulate matter released in one way or another ( exhaust, spraying, dumping ) that affects the atmosphere and therefore us in a number of ways (positive and negative).

I again would like to state that I am not an extremist "chemmie". I don't back or believe every single theory or accusation made by every "chemtrailer". I think it's mostly for the Geo engineering agenda. I have suspicions about it also being for weather warfare and toxic waste disposal. I do not believe strongly in any of the intentional soft kill theories.

Evidence en.wikipedia.org...(law)

When a dispute, whether relating to a civil or criminal matter, reaches the court there will always be a number of issues which one party will have to prove in order to persuade the court to find in his or her favour. The law must ensure certain guidelines are set out in order to ensure that evidence presented to the court can be regarded as trustworthy. The law of evidence governs the use of testimony (e.g., oral or written statements, such as an affidavit) and exhibits (e.g., physical objects) or other documentary material which is admissible (i.e., allowed to be considered by the trier of fact, such as jury) in a judicial or administrative proceeding (e.g., a court of law)

Documentary evidence is any evidence introduced at a trial in the form of documents. Although this term is most widely understood to mean writings on paper (such as an invoice, a contract or a will), the term actually include any media by which information can be preserved. Photographs, tape recordings, films, and printed emails are all forms of documentary evidence.
.


Burden of proof -www.id.uscourts.gov...

In the law of evidence, the necessity or duty of affirmatively proving a fact or facts in dispute on an issue raised between the parties in a lawsuit. The responsibility of proving a point (the burden of proof). It deals with which side must establish a point or points. (See standard of proof.)


Consensus ad idem en.wikipedia.org...

Meeting of the minds (also referred to as mutual agreement, mutual assent or consensus ad idem) is a phrase in contract law used to describe the intentions of the parties forming the contract. In particular it refers to the situation where there is a common understanding in the formation of the contract. This condition or element is often considered a necessary requirement to the formation of a contract.


Prima facie case - www.id.uscourts.gov...

A case that is sufficient and has the minimum amount of evidence necessary to allow it to continue in the judicial process.



Discovery en.wikipedia.org...(law)

In American law, discovery is the pre-trial phase in a lawsuit in which each party, through the law of civil procedure, can obtain evidence from the opposing party by means of discovery devices including requests for answers to interrogatories, requests for production of documents, requests for admissions and depositions. Discovery can be obtained from non-parties using subpoenas. When discovery requests are objected to, the requesting party may seek the assistance of the court by filing a motion to compel discovery.

Under the law of the United States, civil discovery is wide-ranging and can involve any material which is "reasonably calculated to lead to admissible evidence." This is a much broader standard than relevance, because it contemplates the exploration of evidence which might be relevant, rather than evidence which is actually relevant. (Issues of the scope of relevance are taken care of before trial in motions in limine and during trial with objections.) Certain types of information are generally protected from discovery; these include information which is privileged and the work product of the opposing party.


Stipulation - www.id.uscourts.gov...

An agreement between the parties involved in a suit regulating matters incidental to trial.


Too many cooks spoil the pot. And too many extremists on either side the "chemmies" or the "debunkers" creates an atmosphere that's almost as bad as the air we've all been breathing lately.


The approved scenario for the disscussion of chemtrails on ATS has thus far been comparable to trying to conduct a meeting in a circus tent full of magical rabbits being pull out of hats, trumpeting elephants, bicycling bears, juggling clowns, snarling tigers and cars full of giggling midgets. While also having to walk the tightrope and suddenly transition onto the flying trapeze upon request.

Why ?
What happened to deny ignorance ?
Why do personal stories about chemtrails get removed from the grey area forum ?
Why do valid conspiracy theories about chemtrails get removed from the General conspiracy forum ?



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by coyotepoet
 





A disappearing post can't keep the truth down. I have personally U2U'd 5 already and asked them to pass it on. Soon all of the "chemmies" will be aware of the debunkers posting percentages.


Ahh, the good old ad hominem.


Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.





posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by miconATSrender

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by miconATSrender
 


What don't you like?.......the condensation in the atmosphere that is formed from the aircraft exhausts?


Yes. I don't like the way they are clouding the skies. Do you like it? Does anyone like it?
It's more than condensation, its pollution. It has to be worse than car exhaust. I guess we should feel lucky our cars don't leave trails.


Yep - there are scientific articles out there that say aircraft pollution at high altitude is 2-4 times as bad as the same polution at sea level.

That much reviled tool of the NWO, the IPCC, says as much I think - I'll see if I can find a link....

can't find a link that quantifies it sorry - however this PDF does not that aviation pollution is of particular concern - see www.ipcc-nggip.iges.or.jp... - the comment is in the introduction - the document is about methodologies for measuring emissions from a/c.

But remember that the pollution is happening whether there are visible contrails or not - something most people tend to miss in the geenral rush to identify "chemtrails"!!



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by MathiasAndrew
Why do personal stories about chemtrails get removed from the grey area forum ?
Why do valid conspiracy theories about chemtrails get removed from the General conspiracy forum ?


Because there are no such valid theories, but the ones that do crop up can't quite be proved a hoax yet - ATS has a higher threshold for proving a hoax than chemtrailers have for "proving" their theory - ATS does actually require verifiable evidence!!

So this is where drivel goes until it is proven to be a deliberate hoax.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
reply to post by GenRadek
 


Exactly right about the contrails. I posted these as an example of how contrails will be mis identified as chemtrails because chemtrails are in a grid pattern. I was being sarcastic, but you get a S&F for actually noticing the difference.


I knew they are contrails, but good eye anyway..



Ah ya got me. lol! Sarcasm! Dang it why didnt I see it coming?

I love those grid pattern ones though. They make for interesting conversation.

edit to add:

I love the picture of the layers of contrails in the switchback shape. That looks awesome. i wonder if they were the Blue Angels, or Thunderbirds?
edit on 3/17/2011 by GenRadek because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by gloomyblue707
 


I have purposely not made any replies to your anecdote because anecdotes are personal experiences alone and are subjective.
I personally think you are mistaken in your conclusions. The more likely thing is someone was ground spraying pesticides and you were caught in the resulting cloud. I would have certainly investigated until an answer was found. For it to have remained visibly in a cloud, it would have had to be very close to your location and/or very close in time to your visit.
I would also not consider your anecdote to be a "chemtrail", as it would be at an altitude high enough it would not have been able to reach ground level as a cloud, mist, or anything visible. During the long distance down to ground level the aerosol would have evaporated/sublimed or been blown away and around by winds and updrafts. For a "chemtrail" to fall on you, it would have to be the size of fairly large hail.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:30 PM
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ATS has a higher threshold for proving a hoax than chemtrailers have for "proving" their theory - ATS does actually require verifiable evidence!!
DUDE ARE YOU KIDDING AGAIN??? when there are threads that are predicting earthquakes and talking about whales and dolphins causing tsunamis in japan your gonng pull the proving fact blah blah ATS card... yea the hell right buddy you are smoking rocks...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by gloomyblue707
not a single debunkers has even mentioned any possibility of what they thought happened the day i was in the cemetary .. instead people said i did not understand what i was seeing. or acted like they knew what i witnessed and therefore tried to explain by asking for proof i knew it was a chemtrail


Why should anyone actually know?

you gave a short avcount that lacked any detail.

you didnt' take any samples.

You gave no information as to the atmospheric & weather conditions, the location, what else was going on nearby.

You said there were no a/c spraying agricultural chemicals nearby - what constitutes "nearby"? what otehr aircraft were there around? What heights?? What ships, trains, vehicles were nearby? What ground based agricultural spraying operations? What industries? Were the caretakers spraying for weeds in another part of the cemetary?

these are all perfectly valid questions, and your inability to answer them is not "our" fault!

and somehow you expect debunkers to know exactly what happened to you......and when "we" don't you think that is proof that it was a chemtrail.

Sorry to disabuse you, but, contrary to popular belief, if you think it is a chemtrail then you are really supposed to provide some evidence to support the proposition.




its a great example of how when you try to speak upon the subject you get blind sided by negative comments immidiatly when from a solid experience... you debunkers really dismiss anyone who you feel you cannot manipulate into believing what you believe in.


we don't dismiss observations - we ask questions about them - and then "you" get all defensive because you cant' answer them.

I'll say it again - your inability to answer basic questions is not "our" fault, and if you are going to claim you are being sprayed with somethign then you shoudl be ready to answer the predictable questions!


just the fact they do indeed some days spray some suspicious stuff in teh sky and im curius as to whats it for and why they would do such a dirty deed.


there you go again - saying something is a "fact" when you haven't the evidence to support that assertion!


edit on 17-3-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by gloomyblue707
 



huh?

I don't get what you're actually saying here.

AFAIK the HOAX forum is for stuff that is deliberately created to decieve, therefore "merely" suggesting an apparently silly theory does not cut it for shifting there.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by miconATSrender

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by miconATSrender
 


What don't you like?.......the condensation in the atmosphere that is formed from the aircraft exhausts?


Yes. I don't like the way they are clouding the skies. Do you like it? Does anyone like it?
It's more than condensation, its pollution. It has to be worse than car exhaust. I guess we should feel lucky our cars don't leave trails.


Why does it "have" to be worse than car exhaust?.....it's ice crystals in the sky for gods sake!
Unless your driving an electric or hybrid car, then I've got news for you!........your car is polluting the environment a hell of a lot more than a plane travelling 7 miles above the earth's surface!



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Argyll
 


Yeah but for the given volume the greenhouse gas effect is worse if it is generated at altitude - there ARE actually papers out there soemwhere that say as much - aviation provides some small % of the world's greenhous gases, but they are thought to contribute a much higher % of the greenhouse gas effect - the clearest statement is actually at this wiki page - en.wikipedia.org... and is, again, from that great evil arm of the NWO the IPCC!!

wow - that's the 2nd time I've linked to IPCC highlighting pollution - I wonder why the IPCC is so obviously identifying the evil it's masters are perpetrating on us? Perhaps it is doing an "Arab Street" like Tunis, Egypt & Libya??!!



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by GenRadek
I love the picture of the layers of contrails in the switchback shape. That looks awesome. i wonder if they were the Blue Angels, or Thunderbirds?
edit on 3/17/2011 by GenRadek because: (no reason given)


Wonder no more young Gen....."Racetrack contrails"

Also you might like this page on coil/spiral/racetrack contails in satellite photos, and the work the various people have done to figure out just what the a/c was, and what it was doing, and figuring out the exact a/c & wind speeds & path, etc that is requierd to generate them



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 09:16 PM
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Not only is this a chemmy thread.

It is also a thread to argue over what to post and what not to post. Censorship?

Now you have to surf through all of the arguments on whats allowed to post on top of all of the non proof garbage.. Great job OP.


EDIT: I just wanted to leave this comment because I was going to give you the benefit of a doubt. But that is ok. I will leave you all to bicker now. I only read the first two or three pages.
edit on 17-3-2011 by liejunkie01 because: EDIT



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


Sorry, this is a forum, not a courtroom. You are asking for things which I would never agree to. Such as cloud-seeding being "chemtrails", because they are geo-engineering. Cloud seeding is something totally different from "chemtrails". It's a known event, and has been practiced for centuries using cannons and large fires before airplanes. The chemical used is also a known and is used for the physical mechanism of condensation only, not for chemical properties.




I would just like to get past the idea that some persistent contrails ( the ones that last for many hours and now even days ) are not your normal contrails.

I'm not going to stipulate this point either. Persistent contrails are normal, dependent on conditons in the atmosphere alone. I don't need to "get past" that idea, because your idea is just wrong.
Debunkers are also not "extremists". We are basing our conclusion based on decades of scientific research, from many disciplines, nations, and sources. I will not deviate from that.
What happened to "Deny Ignorance"? Nothing. I continue to learn the science involved. I research the topic at length and have for over 2 years now. To acquiesce to your "rules" would be embracing ignorance.
Why do personal stories get moved? Because they are subjective, therefore not real proof of anything.
Why do "valid theories"....? What "valid theories" are you talking about? There are no valid theories that "chemtrails" are real. If there was, there wouldn't be the need for threads like this. And face it, the theory changes year to year, person to person. When the proponents cannot even agree about the simplest facts of who, what, and why, why should any theory presented be more valid than the next?
If you would bring the "chemtrail" issue into the court room, I think you should remember that you are the claimant in a matter that it's most basic level empirical: That there is a chemical component in these trails that is somehow different than every other trail seen in the sky. Therefore the onus probandi is your's.
If you have good proof, show us. Expect us to research it and apply rigorous critical thought. Expect us to require good science method, including but not limited to proper sampling, use of a control, exclusion of all possible contamination, expertise in relevent fields of studies, repeatability, and peer review. Our science, which shows all claims of "chemtrails" are easily explained by standard sciences, include all these traits.
It's not us being picky, it's standard, expected scientific proof.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by gloomyblue707
 


It is a theory that is based on something pure emperical, unlike most theories out there. There are either "chem-" components to a "chemtrail" or there aren't.
So show evidence of the chemical. If you can't conclusively, it's still just story.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Yes your right, the greenhouse effect is increased by the effect of aircraft contrails, any sort of cloud cover will contribute to the greenhouse effect......but that has nothing to do with aircraft spraying chemicals on the populous.



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