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Chemtrail Debunkers....

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posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 


I wish that you all would make up your minds or get your story's strait most of you claim 30,000 feet as the height at which contrails become long lasting and now you are saying 38,000 feet come on just find a figure and stick to it.
Also the vid I posted shows the planes are below the cloud line now correct me if I'm wrong but that proves these planes are not at 30,000 or 38,000 feet.




posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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No matter how many times you try to have a thread to keep the debunkers out, they will always come and stomp on your thread thinking they're right and you're wrong.

If our world was run by people like that, it would be a lot worse than it is now lol.

Now for on topic: I see the trails from planes every now and then, and the chemtrails people speak of...Well it does look out of the ordinary. Some say its just contrails and its normal, well maybe you've only been seeing chemtrails the whole time.

When I see the contrails, its not covering the entire sky... You see a small streak in the sky, but nothing big. Hell I live right beside an airport. I see planes flying all over the place, whether they're landing, taking off or way up in the sky.
edit on 17-3-2011 by krimletch because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by Phage
 


I wish that you all would make up your minds or get your story's strait most of you claim 30,000 feet as the height at which contrails become long lasting and now you are saying 38,000 feet come on just find a figure and stick to it.
Also the vid I posted shows the planes are below the cloud line now correct me if I'm wrong but that proves these planes are not at 30,000 or 38,000 feet.


Okay, so you are saying he has his story mixed up because some people say 30k feet, and some say 38k feet. The differences in humidity between 30k feet and 38k feet are likely to vary a lot less than the differences in humidity from 10k feet and 30 or 38k feet. If you even paid attention to what you posted, if 30k feet is where contrails stick, then they would also stick at 38k feet since according to basic math, 38 > 30.

krimletch: And maybe you, my friend are only seeing various contrails

edit on 17-3-2011 by joshnichols189 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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I would like this thread to be for people who truly want to investigate the subject of chemtrails. I would also like to respectfully request that the chemtrail debunkers refrain from interfering with this thread and post their usual anti-chemmie comments elsewhere.


You face a daunting task. If you really want to make a case for it, you'd have to:

1. Identify the companies/airlines involved.
2. Prove the capability of spraying by said aircraft. (includes how accused jetliners can carry passengers, their luggage, contracted luggage, AND large tanks of chemicals)
3. Show how this effort is kept quiet when it would involve numerous ground personnel and company officers.
4. Show how any substance would remain potent enough when exposed to the vast volume of the atmosphere, to affect anyone on the ground, from standard flight altitudes.
5. Identify differences between contrails and chemtrails.
6. Provide a motive for such an all-targeting method (i.e. you can't pick and choose WHO is affected and who is not).
7. Identify unexplained shortages of the chemicals involved in the process or unexplained amounts that weren't used for their stated purposes.
8. Provide documentation, air manifests, orders, etc. helping to prove any of it.
9. Identify how constantly changing air currents are predicted to spray on any specific target (or if just an all-encompassing target of population centers).
10. Explain why no credible whistleblower has ever come forward with compelling evidence.

I'd say you're in for quite the task.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by joshnichols189
 


Interesting how you side stepped the other part of my post and also the lack of information as to where you are as it is with most of the more forceful members you find in these threads.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 


personal experiences are totally acceptable data... you think the fda just accepts prescription drugs without running clinical trials... i think not... if you would actually do your own research instead of grilling me for what "i" have learned. you could see many many links online as well as well documented personal experiences among the wealth of information and photos online... i think you are just trying to debunk chemtrails because you have nothing better to do... i for one am stating my personal experience because i feel it is necessary on getting the truth out there to the public... please do not ask me for another link or source for i really do not feel like digging up months of research by adding link after link when you can totally find out all this info for yourself.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


I didn't side step anything bud, I didn't even watch your videos yet. Nice try


If you'd like for me to reply to it, I suggest you look at Clouds..

If you read this, you will note that "below the cloud line" doesn't prove that planes are below 30k feet, since clouds in tropical regions can appear as high as 60k feet.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 



Phage Says:



There are many hours difference between the time of the images and the sounding data on that page. . Weather changes.


Network Dude says:




Click on any region you want. You will see the current information on the Jet Stream. It's important to notice where it is coming from so you will understand what kind of air it is bringing with it. If it comes from the extreme north, then I would hazzard a guess that it would be bringing arctic or cold air. If it's coming from the south, then it would bring warmer, moister air. I have learned a little about this because of these discussions. A weatherman or someone who has a degree in climatology could explain it much better.



Did you guys read or review anything on the link I posted?

The creator of the link (work done 3-4 years ago) says

www.watchthesky.org...



Of course there are those in the Professional Chemtrail Denial Corps who would criticize the upper atmosphere data by saying that the radiosonde data represents only point samples at a particular point in time. Which is true. But this data is good enough for the NWS to make daily weather forecasts across the United States upon which millions of people depend on for making decisions affecting their personal lives and safety every day. The Chemtrail Denial Corps postulate that somehow enough moisture magically blows in on the jet stream for a few hours between the standard data collection times in one of the driest airsheds on the planet to allow the so-called "persistent contrails" to form and spread across thousands of square miles in the sky above us. Any honest weather scientist viewing this data would admit that the "magic moisture" scenario is highly unlikely, especially considering the number of examples (25 spray days) of the upper atmospheric data and Chemtrail Spray images documented on this site.


Here's another page from the same site with doppler radar.

www.watchthesky.org...

Wait a minute. Phage? Network Dude? Aren't you the same guys that jump on every single chemtrail thread as quickly and vehemently as you can?
edit on 17-3-2011 by coyotepoet because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2011 by coyotepoet because: second link



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by gloomyblue707
reply to post by Jack Squat
 


personal experiences are totally acceptable data... you think the fda just accepts prescription drugs without running clinical trials... i think not... if you would actually do your own research instead of grilling me for what "i" have learned. you could see many many links online as well as well documented personal experiences among the wealth of information and photos online...


I've done a lot of reading on the subject, and I watched "What in the World are they Spraying" and thus far I've come across nothing conclusive. I don't see how your comparison to the FDA and their clinical trials on drugs is relative to you believing there are chemicals being sprayed on us simply because you see lingering contrails in the sky.

I am not trying to debunk chemtrails at all. As I said, I still entertain the possibility, I'm just not as easily convinced as you are. Do yourself a favor and play devils advocate with yourself. Pretend you are a disbeliever in the theory and see what information you can find. It's healthy to do this on any debatable subject before making up your mind completely.

I hope you don't feel that I'm attacking you Gloomy, because I assure you I am not. You remind me of myself when I was in my late teens and early 20's before I evolved into the skeptic I am today.
edit on 17-3-2011 by Jack Squat because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by joshnichols189
 


I'm in the UK have lived here for the last 34 years so don't tell me that I don't know what clouds look like or the height at which they would be at or that I wouldn't be able to tell that the planes in question are flying above 30,000 feet I've been watching the sky's all my life and I know the difference in trail's planes leave.
I really hope that you are just a closed minded person because if you are not then shame on you.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 


you missed shorthand... everyones experiences with all drug studies in fda clinical trials are not always the same. which was my comparison. they go on firsthand data from every individual to make an accurata assesment of the drug they are studying to give the go ahead for it to be mass manufactured to be distributed to pharmacies and hospitals and doctors ... that was what i meant... and if you were reading everything i wrote i said clearly that i myself had a real life changing experience on that day last august when i witnessed unnatural rainbow sheen looking clouds raining down unnatural nauseating mist that didnt even feel like water it felt sticky and made us very clammy hands and ill... i think you are missing all that... so those videos just re infocrce what i have already witnessed first hand.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by badw0lf

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 

Aloysius you are one of the biggest chemtrail debunkers on ATS. Please respect the request made in the OP and post your comments in one of the other threads listed above in the OP.


See this is what irks me. You go get a MOD to approve the rules set by the OP, otherwise this topic is open for all ATS to discuss.

No clubs allowed...



He requested it kindly, is it really so hard to respect a kind request? Regardless of your opinion on chemtrails when someone kindly asks of something it should be kindly requested, so long it doesn't get in the way of your rights. He requested that only for this thread the chemtrail debunkers don't post, he requested as to not pollute the conversation about proving them.

If you debunkers want so much proof then why can't you at least respect the request of not getting in the way of us compiling and documenting our proof?



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


Why don't you want to hear opposing viewpoints? Do you truly believe that you will be able to learn a thing, with out other peoples opinions? Why try to silence differing opinions? Just because they are different does not mean they are wrong.

Fact is, you DON'T know the answer for sure. So, if you ever wish to learn the truth AND be positive that it IS the truth, you have to welcome all sides of the debate, truly consider all sides of the debate and work together to find the truth....

That is the only way... If you can't work together, the truth shall never be known.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 





I am not trying to debunk chemtrails at all. As I said, I still entertain the possibility, I'm just not as easily convinced as you are. Do yourself a favor and play devils advocate with yourself. Pretend you are a disbeliever in the theory and see what information you can find. It's healthy to do this on any debatable subject before making up your mind completely.


Absolutely! That is the true meaning of "Deny Ignorance"-being open to ideas outside your world view at the time. I wonder how many on the "contrail" side are willing to do the same thing. I think it's that level of humility and openness that separate the true skeptics from the disinfo agents.
edit on 17-3-2011 by coyotepoet because: last sentence



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Nowhere in my post did I attack you, or say you did not know what clouds look like. I simply made a reply to something that you said and posted a link that I thought explained my response. I don't understand how you would be able to tell how high a plane is when you are sitting on the ground, but I did NOT say you didn't. You and all of the other chemtrail theorists say that debunkers talk down on you. Well, I did no such thing and here you are talking down on me.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok

I would like this thread to be for people who truly want to investigate the subject of chemtrails. I would also like to respectfully request that the chemtrail debunkers refrain from interfering with this thread and post their usual anti-chemmie comments elsewhere.


You face a daunting task. If you really want to make a case for it, you'd have to:

1. Identify the companies/airlines involved.
2. Prove the capability of spraying by said aircraft. (includes how accused jetliners can carry passengers, their luggage, contracted luggage, AND large tanks of chemicals)
3. Show how this effort is kept quiet when it would involve numerous ground personnel and company officers.
4. Show how any substance would remain potent enough when exposed to the vast volume of the atmosphere, to affect anyone on the ground, from standard flight altitudes.
5. Identify differences between contrails and chemtrails.
6. Provide a motive for such an all-targeting method (i.e. you can't pick and choose WHO is affected and who is not).
7. Identify unexplained shortages of the chemicals involved in the process or unexplained amounts that weren't used for their stated purposes.
8. Provide documentation, air manifests, orders, etc. helping to prove any of it.
9. Identify how constantly changing air currents are predicted to spray on any specific target (or if just an all-encompassing target of population centers).
10. Explain why no credible whistleblower has ever come forward with compelling evidence.

I'd say you're in for quite the task.


Gazrok makes a good point.. Take 7 for instance.. After this amount of spraying around the globe there must be some shortages of said chemical(s).



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


Matty - no I will not respect that request.

You said above:

Let's give the doubter's a fair chance to voice their opinion and lets treat everyone here with respect.


Sure didnt' take long to change you mind!!

ATS is a public forum, and members are allowed to post to any thread they like as long as they stick to the T&C's.

sorry about that....but if you want a nice cosy fireside chat about the chemtrail hoax that you can control you will have to do so in your own forum, where you do have the ability to censor replies, or one of the many existing chemtrail love-fests where no dissention is allowed.




And once again, he asked you stay away from this thread; him saying give you a fair chance to voice your opinion was to other threads. The OP clearly and kindly asks debunkers of chemtrails to refrain from posting here, in this thread alone, but doesn't ever say to not post on any of the other chemtrail threads.

Hell, start your own chemtrail debunking threads if you want to compile your evidence.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 


also JACK you failed to notice i stated i have previously been sprayed by a crop duster before going to valley springs before this and know very well this was not spray from a cropduster growing up in vacaville witnessed the actual spraying of fields on the edge of town... we felt ill but had been in the cemetary for over an hour and witnessed this stuff get lower and lower and lower dropping down to the ground in a strange mist i have never seen before nor had my friend. this lead me on a incredible search that lead me here today... and to be honest with you JACK i had no previous knowledge of what chemtrails really were until after this day ... just had to point that out. I barely believed it when it happened.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Debunker here.

The atmospheric concentration of aerosols is routinely and continuously studied by researchers in the field of atmospheric science all over the world.

I think it would help your case if you could provide data in published literature which shows dangerous aerosols in significant quantities showing up in that literature.

Given how widespread you claim this phenomenon is, I assume that you have ample data to back up your claims?

I also want to say that I find it terribly disturbing that you want to discuss one side of the issue without hearing from the other side. Is the case for chemtrail spraying so weak that you now need to silence your critics by banning them from the discussion. I smell a rat here.

In fact, I'll just go ahead and say what I think. Regardless of what *your* personal motivations are, I believe the chemtrail conspiracy was created to intentionally distract attention from the real issues.

Firstly, I'd be totally unsurprised to find that the vast majority of observed "chemtrails" are actually misidentified contrails. The continual and deliberate eschewing of rational science by chemtrail devotees indicates that very strongly.

But, I'd also be unsurprised to find that some military planes may also have the ability to spray radar reflective substances to mask military operations or to create radar or other interference. However, I would bet the toxicity of such spraying is extremely low. The people spraying the stuff are doing it over cities where their own families and friends live!

Look beyond the conspiracy they want you to believe and try to see what their real motivation might be. That is if it is even happening at all. Personally I'm not convinced anything is being sprayed over cities.

What really infuriates me about these things is that the adherents to the conspiracy say they can't prove anything without *funding* and approval to test samples. Whenever I see people asking for money to prove their conspiracy theories I know that something is up. If the only people that believe these theories are ones without jobs or savings of any kind, then that tells you everything you need to know right there.

So what's wrong with sending a helium balloon up and taking atmospheric samples just like other atmospheric scientists do? The cost of this is so low almost any hobbyist can do it. And it is not the only cheap way to get information about the chemical composition of these "chemtrails".

But let me guess here. The concentration of these aerosols is so low that you have to measure them right in the spray itself. Just taking an atmospheric sample in the general vicinity won't do?

And yet somehow this concentration which is too low to measure anywhere but directly in the trail is supposed to be doing what? Sterilising people, making them sick.

Whatever.


edit on 17-3-2011 by XtraTL because: correction of a tpyo



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 01:22 PM
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Gazrok makes a good point.. Take 7 for instance.. After this amount of spraying around the globe there must be some shortages of said chemical(s).


Thanks. I should point out though, that my reason for posting the list isn't to side with one viewpoint or the other.

Personally, I don't feel there is anything to the theory, so I listed some of the reasons WHY I feel this way, and invite those who do believe in Chemtrials to address these points (that are likely shared by others who feel the same way I do), in stating their case, if the real goal is to present a sound argument for them.


These questions (and more) are likely to come up from anyone seriously evaluating the case, and adherents of the theory must be have some kind of response to them if they want the idea to be considered by others. I'm not closed to the idea...I simply haven't felt the need to research it myself enough to make a truly informed opinion...and the reasons for that, are in that list. If enough of an argument can be made that addresses those points, then sure, I'd be willing to look closer at it, but right now, it's difficult to fathom that any organization has a) the motive, b) the means, or c) the willingness to subject it's own members to such a thing.




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