The UK census questionnaire.. legaly confusing??

What is to stop people saying they didn't receive it in the post - we know how inadequate the postal service is at the best of times! They have no proof I didn't sign for anything

reply to post by blackcat99


If you tried that one, they'd just send you another.. or come round and give you one.

It's when you send it back that it 'gets lost in the post'..

reply to post by Cobaltic1978

If you boycot the census and don't send off a census form you support Lockheed Martin even more for, as the processing contractor for the forms, they will then get paid for work they don't have to do! I believe we should do the opposite:send in forms (the more the better - use the "individual questionnaires" option too), and make them as time consuming and as expensive as possible to process. The easiest way to do this is to write some stuff as answers and then direct your attention to the bit which really matters, namely all the BARCODES and CODE NUMBERS on the form.

Lockheed Martin makes its money from the census using a very high speed computer scanning system for the forms (all explained in plain language in the links below). this relies on barcodes in the following way:

1) The big barcode on the front page is linked to the mailing-out data base of the forms. When it is scanned (by the Royal Mail), it registers "form received". If the Royal mail can't scan that bar code, either because it is unreadable or because the form has been put wrongly in the envenlope (or both) they will have to forward it to Lockheed Martin's processing centre to deal with. Only that processing centre has the data protection conditions to allow the envelopes to be opened. If is so happens that both the big bar code and also the numbers printed under it and beside it are unreadable, Lockheed Martin will have to do an address search before they can even register the form as "received" (or possibly use the "personal internet access code", if that is still readable)

2) Each page has in the bottom corner a small bold-printed barcode. This is the page number for the computer scanner to read. These page-number barcodes are the same on all forms.

3) Each page has on one side only a fainter, "wavy" bar code. These are the same on each page of a form, but diffrerent for all forms. It is that form's unique "identity" barcode.

On arrival at the processing centre, the spines are trimmed of the forms and the ensuing loose pages are meant to be scanned (at a rate of 15000 per hour, claims Lockheed Martin). The combination of barcodes 2) and 3) makes it possibble for the answers on the pages pages of forms to be scanned, if necessary in complete random order and mixed up with other forms.

If these bar codes are unreadable, computer scanning cannot take place, and vastly more time consuming and expensive full manual keying-in of the data will be necessary. If, in addition, all the numbers under the barcodes are also unreadable, the keying-in clerk will have to do an address-search before he/she can even get started keying in data (or possibly, use the "personal internet access code" on the front page, if that is still readable)

This link below , by the UK Office for national Statistics (ONS), contains downloadable "Newslwetters" which contain ntain good descriptions of the process: see nos. 4. 5 and "special issue"

www.ons.gov.uk...

These 2 links are Lockheed Martin's own descriptions of how it all works:

www.lockheedmartin.co.uk...
www.lockheedmartin.co.uk...

(By the way, for fellow anoraks: I don't believe the candle wax thing - looks like an urban myth to me)

An alternative approach is to confuse the Optical Mark Recognition (OMS) and Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software when computer scanning to takes place. This has to do with the way you tick boxes and write in the answers on the form. This alternative approach would lead to the need for lots of manual intervention and corrections. I save that for another time, if anyone wants to know.

reply to post by Extralien


Its carefully worded nonsense to scare you into filling in the form.

Everyone should be included in the census - all people, households and overnight visitors.

This is the objective, thats all it is stating, they want everyone to fill it out and send it back.

It is used to help plan and fund services for your community - services like transport, education and health.

If it decides the allocation of money, why do you not get money for filling it in?

Taking part in the census is very important and it's also compulsory. You could face a fine if you don't participate or if you supply false information.

Compulsory is an interesting word simply because it does not say "mandatory".

Every single thing to do with this type of nonsense, especially the voters roll always states the word "could".

The words "very important", thats just an opinion, I dont think its important at all.

This is worded in a way to make you think that you will get a fine when you will not. If you call them and say "Im not filling this out", you will be fined as you are interacting with them. If you return the letter to sender you will be fined as you are stating a loud and clear "NO". If you fill in the form and attempt to manipulate the document in any way, £1000 fine.

How would they know if you don't participate? They would know because you have to tell them you are not participating by replying in one of the many ways they will attempt to provoke you with.

If you file this Census form away, nothing will come of it just as it does not with the £1000 fine for not being on the voters roll.

Ive never filled in any "compulsory" form in at any point in my life, yes they come to your door to try and provoke a response ie open the door then shut it, is a "no". If you do not answer the phone, the door or reply in any way shape or form they cannot respond to you.

It is the same with unsecured small debts in this country, the famous line, "I understand if you cannot pay the full balance, we are willing to offer you a token payment as a gesture of good will of £1" and the person decides to pay and they are effectively putting their nether regions in a vice. The £1 is your admittance of ownership of a debt and they can take you for the whole lot. If you cannot pay, what the heck are you communicating with them for in the first place? They are paid to do anything to trick you into giving your money away, simple.

It is the same with private car parks such as a supermarket car park, they give you a fine for parking or send it in the post to you. If you ignore it, it has no consequences as you are not admitting anything at all. If you pay it, call them up and agree to pay a token gesture you have accepted a fine from a business. If I punched you in the face and then asked for £50 for it, you paid for it and I give you an invoice and receipt, you have accepted a fine for me punching your face in. Why would you do that? Why the heck do people pay private corporations for telling them they parked too long?

Personally I think you should be paid £1000 to spend what little time you have these days to sit down and fill in a 32 page document that generates cash and until that happens...

The really sad thing is though, everyone will shout, kick and scream but in the end they will bottle it and either fill it in or reply to them. Then they will say, "see, you do get a fine for it".

This will be all over the television in a few months banging it into your head about how it is so compulsory and it will show you an example of some guy called "Frank Gallacher" who wiped his backside with the paper and sent it back and hes now having to pay his fine. The rest will quake in their boots and think, I need to sort this out as I cant sleep, respond in some way and they too have to pay the fine as its too late.

Ack it goes on and on, ignore it all, it is their peril that is why they are so desperate to have you fill the damned thing in or respond to them, its all money and everyone gets it apart from the little guy.

The Government in the UK can be compared to a big stinking, scary vampire but even a big stinking and scary vampire needs someone to open the door and invite them in before it can touch you in your own home.

Well, I've had a very interesting conversation with a police officer..

Not going to say how I know him, in order to protect his identity..

but, he assures me that he has thrown his census form in the bin and claims the census is against his human rights.. He stated that everything is already known by the system and he does not need to do any more to provide info..

I was a bit stunned when he said that, but if anyone should know, a police officer should..

So, guess what everyone else can do

I already thought of what that video shows, except posting it back. I'm not posting mine back cos I destroyed the envelope too. Screw the census, screw the government.

Also I did the same with the previous census, and ignored the door for the day, and nothing came of it.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
Some good advice on completing the U.K Census.

Clever.

I'm sure he will have just as great a sense of wit when he is prosecuted for tax evasion.

I don't know why people are so reluctant to fill these in. I did mine the other day and there wasn't anything in there that the government didn't already know about me - and what little they did ask me was so wholly trivial that it could never realistically put me in any sort of position of danger or compromise me to the authorities in some way. All the census basically asks is where you live, what sort of building it is, whether you are employed and if so where you are employed, and then what ethnicity you are.

Nothing sinister as far as I could tell. They already know where I've worked before as my (former) employer already had my NI number anyways.

Originally posted by duality90
They already know where I've worked before as my (former) employer already had my NI number anyways.

You've hit the nail on the head... so why give it all to them again?

And why help them support Lockheed Martin... A machine of murderous weapons?

That and the breach of human rights thing...

reply to post by Extralien



The wording is pretty clear. It's saying that you are required by law to fill in the questionaire.

The second part that you quoted means that you may not have to fill out every field. And if there is a field that you are not required to fill out..then leave it completely blank. Probably so as not to confuse the computer that reads it.

Example.

Question 1: Are you male or female?

A. Male (if so go to question 2)
B: Female (if so, go to question 3)

In the case that you were a female..you would skip question 2 completely and leave it completely free of any markings.

I hope this helps.

EDIT: I am British BTW, but I live abroad, and as such I have never seen the census and do not know what is contained within. My explanation above is only my interpretation of the 2 paragraphs that you quoted.

They have just about everything I could put on that form anyway, the only thing they wouldn't know was if my girlfriend stayed over on the date they put in there... and what that has to do with anything is beyond me, purely being spying little gits!!

But everything else, everything you can't lie about and get away with, they know anyway. And Lockheed Martin could easily get that information whatever laws may be in the way.

Might aswell fill it in with some nice scruffy writing and make some guy squint to read it...make it near on illegible...that way you can read it and they cant claim you didn't fill it in, but it courses them trouble.

Originally posted by RMFX1
The wording is pretty clear. It's saying that you are required by law to fill in the questionaire.

The second part that you quoted means that you may not have to fill out every field. And if there is a field that you are not required to fill out..then leave it completely blank. Probably so as not to confuse the computer that reads it.

edit on 20-3-2011 by RMFX1 because: (no reason given)

This is the issue.. It does not say what you have written. I cannot find anywhere in the form where it states any of that.
As you've read in my first post.. it says;

Taking part in the census is very important and it's also compulsory.

Taking part in something does not mean you have to finish it.. The way it is worded suggests that you don't have to finish any questions, as long as you take part.. in other words, have a go and don't worry if you don't finish..

It's a bit like being in a race or a major league game or other sporting event..it's the taking part that counts..
When you're born, it's kinda compulsory to be a part of the human race.. doesn't mean you have to finish it under natural conditions though.. You can end it any time you like...

so what law or act is it that says we must fill it in, as im sure that there is an ocean of difference between the two

Does anybody know the significance of the 27th of march on these census forms?
I've sent mine off now, but wish i hadn't.
In one section it asks;
"will any extra people be stopping in your house on the evening of the 27th march"?

Why the hell would they want to know this? Why the 27th especially?

reply to post by Extralien


I didn't say that it said any of that. I was using that as an example of how forms, official and otherwise often get you to skip certain questions that do not apply to you based on the answers that you have given to previous questions. It's not hard to understand. Really..it's not.


And edit to add: I think that it stands to reason that if it is compulsory that you take part, that it is also compulsory that you complete the form. Now, just to clarify what I mean by that just in case you still can't grasp it. Completion of any form or questionaire generally means that you have filled out, in full, every part of the questionaire that is applicable to YOU.

What they are saying in the second quote of your OP is that they don't want you scribbling or writing anything in any of the fields that are not applicable to you.


EDIT #2: I actually googled it, and I found a perfect example from you. This is taken directly from the census.

Question 17: ‘This question has been left intentionally blank, proceed to question 18

Very funny, but this is an example of a question that "you do not need to answer" Leave it blank!

Originally posted by bargoose
Does anybody know the significance of the 27th of march on these census forms?
I've sent mine off now, but wish i hadn't.
In one section it asks;
"will any extra people be stopping in your house on the evening of the 27th march"?

Why the hell would they want to know this? Why the 27th especially?

It's the final day of the cenus according to this channel 4 link: www.channel4.com...

Q. What if no-one is at home on 27 March? A. If everyone in the household is away on census day you should complete your questionnaire as soon as possible after your return. If the household is absent for more than six months after census day, you do not need to complete the questionnaire. BUT anyone away from home for up to 12 months should still be included on your questionnaire

Originally posted by Extralien

Originally posted by duality90
They already know where I've worked before as my (former) employer already had my NI number anyways.

You've hit the nail on the head... so why give it all to them again?

And why help them support Lockheed Martin... A machine of murderous weapons?

That and the breach of human rights thing...

What human right does the census breach? I can't see this being treated as a breach of Article 8 ECHR.

And again - why do I care? There is nothing the state can gain from me in me telling them that I was formerly employed. If anything it just lets them know how many people were under-employed or unemployed in my area (I did not make enough money to become subject to taxation).

And if you don't mind me asking, what human rights breaches have Lockheed Martin been personally responsible for? They build weapons - they don't operate them. The Labour government has more blood on it's hands than Lockheed Martin has acquired throughout its history. Yes, there is obviously something unnerving about a company that manufactures weapons which can be used solely for the purpose of killing civilians (i.e. Nuclear Weapons) but if Lockheed Martin didn't build them, somebody else certainly would, but the vast majority of their arsenal has legitimate military applications - where their use to target civilians intentionally would be rather unlikely.

Everyone commits a great disservice to their local area in boycotting this on the feeble ground of pacifism. The census serves a very good purpose. If you object so strongly to human rights violations and wish to boycott any corporation that manufactures anything with any possible military purpose, you should probably stop flying on Boeing Airplanes (amongst numerous other manufacturers), stop purchasing clothing unless it is made in the United Kingdom or the west (where sweatshops are largely non-existent) and stop using petroleum products and boycott all oil companies as oil fuels tanks and warplanes.

Alternately, you could be a realist and not blame the person who manufactures the rifle but the person that pulls the trigger.

Edit: Sorry, that sounded really boorish and hostile. My apologies. Just so sick of bloody students (I still go to University) making such a mountain out of such a silly molehill. If you believe Lockheed Martin are deeply interested in the trifling personal details of your life, you overvalue yourself far too much. As far as I could tell the information on the census was largely useful for nothing other than ascertaining how many people of working age live in a given area on a regular basis (even a student like me - I do not live here 12 months a year but use the local NHS services on a regular basis for about 3/4 of it).

Originally posted by StevenDye
They have just about everything I could put on that form anyway, the only thing they wouldn't know was if my girlfriend stayed over on the date they put in there... and what that has to do with anything is beyond me, purely being spying little gits!!

But everything else, everything you can't lie about and get away with, they know anyway. And Lockheed Martin could easily get that information whatever laws may be in the way.

Might aswell fill it in with some nice scruffy writing and make some guy squint to read it...make it near on illegible...that way you can read it and they cant claim you didn't fill it in, but it courses them trouble.

I don't get why people are so fussed about Lockheed Martin being involved. I honestly don't think they give a toss how many people live in your house or where you work. They simply saw an opportunity to use their technologies in data processing to make money...

...just like anyone with skills in the free market.

Originally posted by duality90
I don't know why people are so reluctant to fill these in. I did mine the other day and there wasn't anything in there that the government didn't already know about me - and what little they did ask me was so wholly trivial that it could never realistically put me in any sort of position of danger or compromise me to the authorities in some way. All the census basically asks is where you live, what sort of building it is, whether you are employed and if so where you are employed, and then what ethnicity you are.

Nothing sinister as far as I could tell. They already know where I've worked before as my (former) employer already had my NI number anyways.

I do not think you understand how the government works.

They do not cross reference details held about you unless there is a crime of some sort commited or you provide the consent for them to do so.

For example, DVLA do not share details with DWP just as the NHS cannot share details with your GP etc. If you guys want proof, call NHS 24, tell them you are unwell and listen to the questions they ask you to answer yes or no too, they are along the lines of...

"Do you consent to us sharing the information you have provided today with your GP?"

"Do you consent to us sharing details with 3rd party research companies"

This is because they cannot cross reference all of your data. This census asks all of your basic information, they have it yes but they do not have it all in one place. If they did, they would not ask for it.

Here is an interesting article on the BBC today...

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

www.bbc.co.uk...

But I thought they do not share census information??

3rd party opinions on census information constitutes as sharing information to me but not too them.

I also do not like the thought that a bunch of well paid staticians will pour over my personal information.

Another thing that I find interesting is that a car drew into my drive on Friday night and a person hammered on the door, I didnt answer, they even peeked in my front window before putting the census envelope through my door. Im not on any kind of voters roll, I never give any permission for sharing of data and my GP details conflict with my NHS details and so on.

Weird that, eh? Considering that everyone else I know recieved it in the post, including all my neighbours.

They can bugger right off until I get paid £1000 to fill it in.

Originally posted by XXXN3O
But I thought they do not share census information??

3rd party opinions on census information constitutes as sharing information to me but not too them.

I also do not like the thought that a bunch of well paid staticians will pour over my personal information.

They can bugger right off until I get paid £1000 to fill it in.

edit on 22-3-2011 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)

Thank you so very much for making this observation.. I started a thread regarding that very topic just a while earlier..
www.abovetopsecret.com...
And they still want us to believe the data is kept secret for 100 years? lol.. pull the other one..

Thanks again.