``Chernobyl on steroids`` happening RIGHT NOW

Sleeping? What's that?

Kyodo is reporting that ANOTHER FIRE has broken out at Reactor 4....

URGENT: Fire breaks out again at Fukushima's No. 4 reactor: TEPCO

A fire broke out again early Wednesday at the troubled No. 4 reactor of the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said.

Noooooooooooooooooooo

Fukushima nuke plant situation 'worsened considerably': think tank

The situation at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant in northeastern Japan ''has worsened considerably,'' the Institute for Science and International Security said in a statement released Tuesday.

Referring to fresh explosions that occurred earlier in the day at the site and problems in a pool storing spent nuclear fuel rods, the Washington-based think tank said, ''This accident can no longer be viewed as a level 4 on the International Nuclear and Radiological Events scale that ranks events from 1 to 7.''

Noting that a level 4 incident involves ''only local radiological consequences,'' it said the ongoing crisis is ''now closer to a level 6, and it may unfortunately reach a level 7'' -- a worst case scenario with extensive health and environmental consequences.

Radiation leak feared at spent fuel pool, water injection ordered

A nuclear crisis at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant deepened Tuesday as fresh explosions occurred at the site and its operator said water in a pool storing spent nuclear fuel rods may be boiling, an ominous sign for the release of high-level radioactive materials from the fuel.

The government ordered the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., on Tuesday night to inject water into the pool at the No. 4 reactor to cool it down ''as soon as possible to avert a major nuclear disaster.''

TEPCO said the water level in the pool storing the spent fuel rods at its Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant's No. 4 reactor may have dropped, exposing the rods. Unless the spent fuel rods are cooled down, they could be damaged and emit radioactive substances.

The firm said it has not yet confirmed the current water level or water temperature in the pool and will try to pour water into the facility from Wednesday through holes that were created following an explosion earlier Tuesday in the walls of the building that houses the reactor.

Due to high radiation levels at the No. 4 reactor, workers on Tuesday were unable to prepare for the pouring of water into the troubled pool.

The firm said its workers were only able to remain in the central control rooms at the Fukushima plant for 10 minutes to avoid exposure to excessive radiation levels. They have retreated to a remote site to monitor data on the reactors, it added.

The nuclear agency said the water temperature in the pool stood at 84 degrees C as of 4 a.m. Monday, higher than the normal level of 40 to 50 degrees. Usually, the upper tip of the fuel rods is at a depth of 10 meters from the surface of the pool, it said.

Edano said water temperatures in the pools at the No. 5 and No. 6 reactors at the Fukushima plant have been rising as well.

TEPCO said the problem could develop into a critical ''meltdown'' situation, in which fuel rods melt and are destroyed, emitting massive amounts of radioactive materials into the air.

2157: Tepco says efforts are underway to tackle the fire inside the building which houses the number four reactor, Reuters reports.

.2153: Flames are rising from the reactor, AP reports.

"A Japanese nuclear safety official has confirmed reports that the water inside the waste fuel storage pool for the number 4 Fukushima reactor may be boiling, AP reports"

Originally posted by Aeons
The Ukraine is a large place. Russia is a huge country.

Japan is not. Japan doesn't have anywhere to evacuate TOO.

Hi,

The material i read suggest that the upheaval and movement of people from areas surrounding Chernobyl has created social and economic problems ( and the resulting health problems) far out of porportion to the observed effects on those who suffered prompt radiation effects back in the days after the disaster. While I'm not sure if this is something 'experts' are likely to support it seems to be that it would have been better to evacuate people only from areas where contamination was confirmed and to have aided everyone else in adapting their lifestyles accordingly in areas where there were some contaminants. The Russian government overreacted and in retrospect even their modest fatality expectations were proven to be vastly overstated.

The Japanese government is not contributing to creating panic and is acting quite conservatively in estimating such a large area when the threat is so limited. The coming days will show that that the alarmist are once again just that despite the fact that practically everything that could in this instance go wrong did; nukes are safe even when your not trying very hard.

If you really concerned about 'nuclear particulate fallout' just make sure you do not inhale it and do not ingest it; both easy to do with practically no effort. If you suspect that you may have been exposed/ have some on your skin just wash it off. You would be surprised how much 'nuclear/radiation' effects you can survive with a modicum of preparation and training.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Aeons
The Ukraine is a large place. Russia is a huge country.

Japan is not. Japan doesn't have anywhere to evacuate TOO.

Hi,

The material i read suggest that the upheaval and movement of people from areas surrounding Chernobyl has created social and economic problems ( and the resulting health problems) far out of porportion to the observed effects on those who suffered prompt radiation effects back in the days after the disaster. While I'm not sure if this is something 'experts' are likely to support it seems to be that it would have been better to evacuate people only from areas where contamination was confirmed and to have aided everyone else in adapting their lifestyles accordingly in areas where there were some contaminants. The Russian government overreacted and in retrospect even their modest fatality expectations were proven to be vastly overstated.

The Japanese government is not contributing to creating panic and is acting quite conservatively in estimating such a large area when the threat is so limited. The coming days will show that that the alarmist are once again just that despite the fact that practically everything that could in this instance go wrong did; nukes are safe even when your not trying very hard.



If you really concerned about 'nuclear particulate fallout' just make sure you do not inhale it and do not ingest it; both easy to do with practically no effort. If you suspect that you may have been exposed/ have some on your skin just wash it off. You would be surprised how much 'nuclear/radiation' effects you can survive with a modicum of preparation and training.

Stellar

Uh... yeah. The only threat from radiation is if you breath it in? Duck and cover... duck and cover.

Tell that to the heavily armored workers in Chernobyl who were covered head to toe in thick LEAD armor, who would still only be able to be near the plant for 50 seconds at a time.

That the robots they had doing the work for them SHORTED and stopped working due to the radiation. Everything that is touched by radiation DIES. It's an invisible enemy and it wreaks havoc in MANY, MANY ways you can hardly even see for years to come.

Oh. And don't worry, Japan totally has it under control. They're doing everything great! No need to worry.

Oh wait except for the fact that spent fuel is now on fire, there's TONS (literally) of spent fuel just being stored there... 4 reactors are having issues.

Chernobyl didn't have a containment building!!! Great, these reactors did. Oh until we have an explosion at each and every one of the active reactors that destroys that containment building.

There is no containment. All 3 reactors ARE in meltdown. The Japanese have completely evacuated the plant. They've given up on it, there is absolutely nothing they can do.


According to Wikipedia timeline posted earlier:

10:46 Tepco says the reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been emitting white smoke for about 45 minutes[26]

11:36 The remaining 50 workers located in the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have retreated from the plant after radiation levels there have surged

Plant workers abandon due to radioactive concerns




In the latest documentary of Chernobyl I watched, there was the initial footage of the plant that showed when the reactor's top had blown off. The most disturbing image was the fact you could see 'white smoke' raising up from the reactor. That was PURE RADIATION. So intense it had a physical form... that is scary, scary, SCARY stuff. And now it's happening at Daiichi. And with 4 reactors.

I used to be one of the followers of this story since the hour this earthquake originally hit (you can see my posts in the first thread) and had been telling everybody NOT to overreact about the nuclear reactors.

I've watched them since like a guard dog... and it hasn't gotten ANY better, just shows more and more they cannot contain it. Sadly, Japan was one of the most prepared in many ways... but unfortunately they aren't using their resources properly at this point.

There's nobody pumping water. The fuel rods are damaged. There are pooled fuel rods that are on fire now. There is NO CONTAINMENT as the buildings that had that responsibility have BLOWN UP.

I'm just trying to keep this in line... I'm not in fear, or trying to cause it. But I'm NOT going to sit down and take this lightly in the least. People HAVE TO KNOW as this affects EVERYBODY on the Earth.

Now we're just waiting to see how bad it can possibly get...

"PURE RADIATION". Well that's a new one. I guess it becomes visible once it is in it's pure form after all. Add that to the physical chemistry textbooks.

One thought I had was that reactor buildings 1,2, and 3 all had explosions. After that building 4 caught on fire because either the spent fuel rods or hydrogen from the spent fuel rod pools ignited. The spent fuel rod pools on 5 and 6 are heating up to the point workers are removing ceiling panels in anticipation of a potential hydrogen ignition. Why haven't the spent fuel rod pools on buildings 1-3 been an issue? Are they gone because of the explosion? Are there spent, highly radioactive fuel rods pieces scattered about the premises or possibly for miles in all directions?

JAIF gives charts showing the status updates of the six reactors Fukushima-1 here (not the earthquake report):
www.jaif.or.jp...

Notice under "Spent Fuel Integrity" for reactors 1-3 (that have all 'blown their tops') it states (no info). Interesting.

I forgot to add there is a "common" fuel rod storage building at ground level on the site with over 6,000 assemblies in it. What happens when that pool overheats and catches on fire?

Even worse. It had glass windows and may have been flooded by the tsunami sea water.
dcbureau.org...

According to Albert Donnay, a former nuclear engineer, “This means the common pool is now full of radioactive and corrosive seawater that will cause the fuel assemblies to fail and burst open, as they are doing inside the reactor cores that have been deliberately flooded with seawater. If the pool drains or boils away, the fuel will melt, burn and even possibly explode if the fuel collapses into a sufficiently critical mass.”

Experts fear the explosion rained debris into the pool that stopped natural cooling of the fuel bundles or knocked the bundles together, damaging them, sending the irradiated fuel chunks to the bottom of the pool where they could reach critical mass.

The problem is if the spent fuel gets too close, they will produce a fission reaction and explode with a force much larger than any fission bomb given the total amount of fuel on the site. All the fuel in all the reactors and all the storage pools at this site (1760 tons of Uranium per slide #4) would be consumed in such a mega-explosion. In comparison, Fat Man and Little Boy weapons dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki contained less than a hundred pounds each of fissile material.

Originally posted by Chez0011
I am just shocked that this could happen. Not just the engineering failures but the management at the plant seemed to drop the ball one time after another. Venting hydrogen into building one without venting the building, then doing it again with building three and expecting a different result. At least on building two they were knocking holes on the walls to try to vent it before it went. Then they have pump trucks that run out of fuel and pump no water 180 min while the reactor vessel goes dry. Reservoir ponds drying up and no pumping for two hours. I mean come on, these people have all the resources of the military/government if they just pick up a phone.

I don't know much here, BUT BUT BUT!

where are/were the "rescue" ships that have plenty of "Pump" capabilities to get water on the reactors ??????

the US Navy has been very close to the area with helicopters etc.

there are US military bases in Japan too ..... where's the help ????

where's the Japanese ships with water pumps ??????

where's the big cargo planes dropping supplies ????

anybody??



Are they allowing the reactors to go for a reason ????

reply to post by xuenchen


Good question. They had all the resources they needed at their fingertips essentially (one would think). I will say to their credit that they had (I believe) six fire trucks on site pumping before #3 blew and knocked all but one out of service (my understanding).

However at this point considering the circumstances and emotions that go along with a monumental disaster such as this I'm more prone to believe that human incompetence/error or mis/lack of communication was the cause more than conspiracy. Plant employees (including engineers) have a high level of devotion and pride to a plant, I can't imagine deliberate actions to prevent saving it. Not only that I can't imagine the plant owners intentionally taking a hit financially, public relations wise (to the nuclear industry and company), or death toll intentionally. There is just way too much beyond human nature and human decency for a conspiracy of that level to take place IMHO.

Not only devotion to the plant but as the situation gets worse so does the life expectancy of every person on site.

Hi Shagula,

Originally posted by shagula
Uh... yeah. The only threat from radiation is if you breath it in? Duck and cover... duck and cover.

Unless your close enough to the nuclear explosion or damaged reactor to get irradiated, yes, duck and cover is a good place to start.

Tell that to the heavily armored workers in Chernobyl who were covered head to toe in thick LEAD armor, who would still only be able to be near the plant for 50 seconds at a time.

These guys were shoveling dirt and concrete onto a exposed reactor and to recover from the exposure that near it they would probably have to go to a decontamination unit out of line of sight of the reactor ( thus allowing for sufficient matter to absorb the radiation) maybe no more than 50 or 100 meters away.

That the robots they had doing the work for them SHORTED and stopped working due to the radiation. Everything that is touched by radiation DIES. It's an invisible enemy and it wreaks havoc in MANY, MANY ways you can hardly even see for years to come.

Everything that comes into contact with radioactive material does not die but obviously you can if your standing atop a exposed burning reactor. Fact is we have had decades to study the effect of radiation on the human body and the verdict is that with proper precautions and training people can just about work on top of exposed reactor cores without dying or suffering serious negative long term health effects. It's not a job i would want to do but if your a emergency worker that may be part of your training and job.

Oh. And don't worry, Japan totally has it under control. They're doing everything great! No need to worry. Oh wait except for the fact that spent fuel is now on fire, there's TONS (literally) of spent fuel just being stored there... 4 reactors are having issues.

It's not that i am not worried that the failure of the safety features but that i have a bit more of a idea just how badly you can mess it up without your failure resulting in the end of the world as we know it. That kind of nonsense can be dispelled quite quickly once you start reading other than media reports on the supposed dangers involved. Thus even with TONS of spent fuel stored on site and significant safety feature failures it's been a week and Japan has strangely not yet ceased to exist as a nation.

Chernobyl didn't have a containment building!!! Great, these reactors did. Oh until we have an explosion at each and every one of the active reactors that destroys that containment building.
There is no containment. All 3 reactors ARE in meltdown. The Japanese have completely evacuated the plant. They've given up on it, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

They have temporarily evacuated personal until radiation levels moves within what they consider to be 'safe' for emergency workers. The fact that they are willing to clear out emergency workers in my mind suggests that they do not rate the risk to Japan or anyone else high enough to risk even a few dozen workers. The Russians ordered alot of men to their deaths knowing that sacrifices are required to do essential jobs. I am sure the Japanese can and will sacrifice lives if they think the risk of a catastrophic meltdown can thus be avoided and that they have sufficient people willing to risk their lives to protect their country.

According to Wikipedia timeline posted earlier:


11:36 The remaining 50 workers located in the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have retreated from the plant after radiation levels there have surged

Plant workers abandon due to radioactive concerns

And for some reason you presumed that they will not go back in if the situation demands it?

In the latest documentary of Chernobyl I watched, there was the initial footage of the plant that showed when the reactor's top had blown off. The most disturbing image was the fact you could see 'white smoke' raising up from the reactor. That was PURE RADIATION. So intense it had a physical form... that is scary, scary, SCARY stuff. And now it's happening at Daiichi. And with 4 reactors.

No comparison can be made as all four reactors went offline, it's a safety feature, the moment the quake struck. Chernobyl was out of control right from the start and there was simply no time to take anything like adequate precautions given it's dual use fast breeding setup. The notion that these reactors could still go 'chernobyl' is in my opinion very close to ludicrous and in a few days time your all going to be kicking yourselves for once again jumping on the panic bandwagon. I understand such emotions in the Japanese who live nearby but it's totally unjustifiable at this distance and with your Internet still allowing you to study the actual dangers.

I used to be one of the followers of this story since the hour this earthquake originally hit (you can see my posts in the first thread) and had been telling everybody NOT to overreact about the nuclear reactors.

Well good job on not overreacting right from the start! That's something even thought i do not know what to call it.

I've watched them since like a guard dog... and it hasn't gotten ANY better, just shows more and more they cannot contain it. Sadly, Japan was one of the most prepared in many ways... but unfortunately they aren't using their resources properly at this point.

They were pretty well prepared and despite much of the safety features failing the situation is still sufficiently in control that emergency workers health still rates highly enough to get talked about.

There's nobody pumping water. The fuel rods are damaged. There are pooled fuel rods that are on fire now. There is NO CONTAINMENT as the buildings that had that responsibility have BLOWN UP.
I'm just trying to keep this in line... I'm not in fear, or trying to cause it. But I'm NOT going to sit down and take this lightly in the least. People HAVE TO KNOW as this affects EVERYBODY on the Earth.
Now we're just waiting to see how bad it can possibly get...

They are pumping water when they can and as best they can and while it's not sufficient it's apparently preventing things from getting significantly worse fast. It's been five days? Why do you think it's going to go out of control now when they have had four days to assess the true threat level and to decide on just how much they should risk in dealing with this situation? 40 workers withdrawn due to dangerous radiation levels? 40? Does it sound to you as if they have are panicking? I will worrying when they start carrying out the emergency workers on stretchers showing that the situation is getting so out of hand that they have decided that throwing bodies at the problem was now preferable to hanging about outside and making those evacuation zones permanent.

Until then we are much to far away from this problem to get emotional and certainly too far away to believe that this affects everybody on the planet. Unless you mean that nuke construction in the US and elsewhere will again be halted due to the ignorant fears of a ignorant public? That is a real concern and really worth worrying about....

Stellar

This is probably the worst case scenario...

chicoharlan In last few hours a horrible situation has gotten worse. NRC chair says all water in spent fuel pool at No. 4 reactor has boiled away.

There's at least 80 tons of radioactive rods in there... this is indeed Chernobyl on steroids.

Originally posted by Chez0011
"PURE RADIATION". Well that's a new one. I guess it becomes visible once it is in it's pure form after all. Add that to the physical chemistry textbooks.

Shagula is quite right about that light of pure radiation shooting up like a pale blue laser beam from Chernobyl. It's a well known phenomenon, whether or not it's included in a junior-high text-book.

Chernobyl 20 years on

... from the centre of the building, an unearthly, delicate, blue-white light shot upwards into the night - a shaft of ionising radiation from the exposed core. 'I remember thinking how beautiful it was,' Yuvchenko says.

Momentarily transfixed by the eerie glow - known as Cherenkov's Light - Yuvchenko was dragged away by Tregub, who realised they were standing in a lethal field of gamma radiation.

Cherenkov radiation (Wiki)

Originally posted by Chez0011
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Good question. They had all the resources they needed at their fingertips essentially (one would think). I will say to their credit that they had (I believe) six fire trucks on site pumping before #3 blew and knocked all but one out of service (my understanding).

However at this point considering the circumstances and emotions that go along with a monumental disaster such as this I'm more prone to believe that human incompetence/error or mis/lack of communication was the cause more than conspiracy. Plant employees (including engineers) have a high level of devotion and pride to a plant, I can't imagine deliberate actions to prevent saving it. Not only that I can't imagine the plant owners intentionally taking a hit financially, public relations wise (to the nuclear industry and company), or death toll intentionally. There is just way too much beyond human nature and human decency for a conspiracy of that level to take place IMHO.

Not only devotion to the plant but as the situation gets worse so does the life expectancy of every person on site.

There's no reason to believe any of this disaster is due to human errors in handling the situation.

There is one mistake recorded where someone turned off a valve which was meant to vent steam venting from a reactor building, resulting in the explosion of the hydrogen within the building, but, as the other reactors also experienced the same type of explosion, I wonder if the first story of human error was not a face-saving fabrication by the company.

Pumping in sea-water was a choice of desperation, as it causes corrosion quickly at those temperatures, drastically increasing the production of explosive hydrogen gas. However they had no better "solution" available.
It also means those reactors can never be used again.

The hydrogen explosions resulting from this corrosion and/or exposure of the reactor fuel to the open air have knocked out the cooling systems, so now there is no way to use any regular cooling method.

The helicopter deliveries of water have had to stop because high winds prevented the water dropping on the target and the excessive radiation levels above the plant were too dangerous to keep flying over.

An American ship was in the area to help, but had to leave because the men were becoming contaminated from the radiation.

The whole area for miles around is just a thick mass of debris, initially inaccessible to the vehicles they needed there. Although bulldozers have been clearing roads, it's still a frightful mess and difficult to navigate around.

There are now riot-cannon trucks squirting water, but the danger presented by reactor 3, which has been using plutonium fuel, (MOX), is such that they have to concentrate on cooling that, and are not able to attend to the others too.

All this addition of water can do is, at best, refill the pools in which old, used fuel is stored. There are seven of these pools, on actually sitting on top of each reactor, fully exposed now the roofs have gone, and an even larger one at ground-level.

What they can't do now is get coolant into the damaged reactor cores.

What Japan is dealing with here are 4 - 6 nuclear time-bombs of incredible size, and I've no doubt that in that techno-minded society in which doing one's duty is paramount, they will be doing everything possible to avert disaster.

Of course, at the same time, they will be doing everything possible to save face.
If any of these plants does actually blow, we'll be seeing the head of TEPCO fall on his sword, with or without help from his compatriots.

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by Chez0011
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Good question. They had all the resources they needed at their fingertips essentially (one would think). I will say to their credit that they had (I believe) six fire trucks on site pumping before #3 blew and knocked all but one out of service (my understanding).

However at this point considering the circumstances and emotions that go along with a monumental disaster such as this I'm more prone to believe that human incompetence/error or mis/lack of communication was the cause more than conspiracy. Plant employees (including engineers) have a high level of devotion and pride to a plant, I can't imagine deliberate actions to prevent saving it. Not only that I can't imagine the plant owners intentionally taking a hit financially, public relations wise (to the nuclear industry and company), or death toll intentionally. There is just way too much beyond human nature and human decency for a conspiracy of that level to take place IMHO.

Not only devotion to the plant but as the situation gets worse so does the life expectancy of every person on site.

There's no reason to believe any of this disaster is due to human errors in handling the situation.

There is one mistake recorded where someone turned off a valve which was meant to vent steam venting from a reactor building, resulting in the explosion of the hydrogen within the building, but, as the other reactors also experienced the same type of explosion, I wonder if the first story of human error was not a face-saving fabrication by the company.

Pumping in sea-water was a choice of desperation, as it causes corrosion quickly at those temperatures, drastically increasing the production of explosive hydrogen gas. However they had no better "solution" available.
It also means those reactors can never be used again.

The hydrogen explosions resulting from this corrosion and/or exposure of the reactor fuel to the open air have knocked out the cooling systems, so now there is no way to use any regular cooling method.

The helicopter deliveries of water have had to stop because high winds prevented the water dropping on the target and the excessive radiation levels above the plant were too dangerous to keep flying over.

An American ship was in the area to help, but had to leave because the men were becoming contaminated from the radiation.

The whole area for miles around is just a thick mass of debris, initially inaccessible to the vehicles they needed there. Although bulldozers have been clearing roads, it's still a frightful mess and difficult to navigate around.

There are now riot-cannon trucks squirting water, but the danger presented by reactor 3, which has been using plutonium fuel, (MOX), is such that they have to concentrate on cooling that, and are not able to attend to the others too.

All this addition of water can do is, at best, refill the pools in which old, used fuel is stored. There are seven of these pools, on actually sitting on top of each reactor, fully exposed now the roofs have gone, and an even larger one at ground-level.

What they can't do now is get coolant into the damaged reactor cores.

What Japan is dealing with here are 4 - 6 nuclear time-bombs of incredible size, and I've no doubt that in that techno-minded society in which doing one's duty is paramount, they will be doing everything possible to avert disaster.

Of course, at the same time, they will be doing everything possible to save face.
If any of these plants does actually blow, we'll be seeing the head of TEPCO fall on his sword, with or without help from his compatriots.

I have been reading your posts about the whole situation ....

I agree 100% !!

I would add that the copters should easily have been equipped with pumps and 2 fire hoses !

Not dropping a few useless gallons after all the water dried up!

two copters could easily keep a steady stream going 24 hours !

It would have been easy to "water down" ANY area ....

and the ships have lots of pumps and hoses too !!

I think the whole thing is being exploited and manipulated by the Companies and Organizations involved .... the Govts are just the scapegoats!

the media is completely under a control agenda !

and I think everybody KNOWS EXACTLY what they are doing !!!!

The results are typical ....

reply to post by Kailassa


As the Wiki article states, the blue is the ionization effect not the radiation itself not to mention he referred to 'white smoke'. I didn't take chemistry till I went to college so I could not attest to what is in your jr. high textbooks.

reply to post by Kailassa


I wasn't saying the disaster was due to human error. I did say there were situations like pumps running out of fuel that were human error/incompetency in my opinion.