And so it begins. Radiation finally reaches my area //might get evacuated

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Foddy

 

I really wonder where you are getting your information from! The evacuation zone is not being extended.

Sorry - it is correct that the evacuation zone has been expanded to certain areas where higher levels of radiation have been detected, but residents are being asked to evacuate within a month, so it hardly sounds like a desperate situation. And who says they don't have gas? It may be in short supply, but it is possible to get it. I'm sure you can check for yourself, but if you can't, I'll give you the BBC website reference ("Life inside the Exclusion Zone" or something like that).

The US and UK recommended a 50 mile exclusion zone with the same recommendations, but the US has now admitted that it did this without any scientific evidence.

do you have any proof they admited this?

Yes. Here you are:

search.japantimes.co.jp...

I would think that still leaking radiation would make things worse wouldn't you??

there have been several members of ATS giving reports from inside Japan as well..and the numbers don't always match...but trust the ones that you want..

I have friends who are researchers at Tokyo University. The University has 3 separate radiation counters, all of which give very similar figures to those in Shinjuku. If you have a source for different figures, please post it.

Actually, why not hop on a plane to Tokyo - the US government isn't saying it's not safe - and take a look at things here

Actually if I had a way there I would come...not to sit in Tokyo but to go and try help get people out of the radiation zone

And In the month following the Chernobyl explosion 134 workers were hospitalised with acute radiation sickness and 31 died

and if you think that only those few people died from Chernobyl then there is no use talking to you further...

Where did I ever say that?? Why not reply to what I said, not what you imagine. What I am talking about here (I'm sure you know that, don't you?) is the number of workers who died in the immediate ONE MONTH period after the explosion. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough for you.

It seems that you really WANT this to be a huge disaster. Why is that?

reply to post by Foddy

And who says they don't have gas? It may be in short supply, but it is possible to get it

11 percent who said they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline.

source

If you have a source for different figures, please post it.

There has been several posting in this thread
abovetopsecret.com

It seems that you really WANT this to be a huge disaster. Why is that?

There is none as blind as he who will not see....I am done with you...

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Foddy

 

And who says they don't have gas? It may be in short supply, but it is possible to get it

11 percent who said they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline.

source

If you have a source for different figures, please post it.

There has been several posting in this thread
abovetopsecret.com

It seems that you really WANT this to be a huge disaster. Why is that?

There is none as blind as he who will not see....I am done with you...

I'm happy to discuss the situation with anyone who has facts at their disposal and is prepared to post them. Even now, it seems you can't. You say there is no gas, and then it seems that "11% say they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline", which is totally different. I ask you for figures of increased radiation levels and you can't or won't do it. And then you have the nerve to accuse me of being blind! I am living in Tokyo and see what is happening every day. You live in the US and only have access to a media whose sole interest (apart from the occasional sob story) is in finding sensational news and building things up to being more than they are.

Meantime, PLEASE post a link which shows increasing radiation levels in Tokyo. I would be very interested to see it. And, finally, when the US government starts reducing its number of personnel in Japan because of the threats from radiation, and increases (rather than reduces) the level of its warning about travel to Japan, then I might sit up and take notice.

Originally posted by Foddy

Shame on everyone who adds to the already terrible situation by imagining that there is a nuclear disaster too. There isn't. I hope all those who ran away from Japan are not allowed back into the country.

Seriously, Foddy? What are you, a nuclear troll, or a whack job? Ever seen the real history of Chernobyl? I suppose you're going to tell people that was all made up too, that the radiation poisoning was just a little sunburn that people blew out of proportion. Who are you to tell people NOT to look out for their own safety and well-being? Or condemn them for doing so???

reply to post by Foddy

Even now, it seems you can't.

hmm seems like I have provided facts for everything I said...all dismissed by you

You say there is no gas, and then it seems that "11% say they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline", which is totally different.

actually what I said was

I really like how he says they should evacuate on their own....like they can without gas

so how is that totally different?

I ask you for figures of increased radiation levels and you can't or won't do it.

actually I did do it...but you didn't read the thread it seems...
so in order to help you out..I will post 1 from that thread....there are more but I refuse to hold you hand thru all of them
posted by member MedievalGhost from japan

Just to update you and everyone else here, today my highest reading was .18 microsieverts per hour. My daily average since I got my geiger has always been within normal background levels of around .09 to .10, so this is about double my usual readings. Not deadly levels, but a notable increase.

abovetopsecret.com

but I bet you will find a way to dismiss that too..

You live in the US and only have access to a media whose sole interest (apart from the occasional sob story) is in finding sensational news and building things up to being more than they are.

actually the media I posted was from NHK....YOU are the one that posted info from BBC

Meantime, PLEASE post a link which shows increasing radiation levels in Tokyo

show me where I ever said anything about Tokyo???

And, finally, when the US government starts reducing its number of personnel in Japan because of the threats from radiation, and increases (rather than reduces) the level of its warning about travel to Japan, then I might sit up and take notice.

that makes perfect sense...??? you do know that the military is better suited to handle exposure than civilians right??

you do know that the U.S troops would stay until the very last minute to help right??

As far as I know only some of the family members have left

for the latest travel warnings go here


I really don't know if you are making an effort to troll or if you are just really young..so I am giving you the benefit of doubt here..
really stop and think about what you are posting...take a look at other people replies to you...you are making yourself look bad..take a close hard look at what people are saying...

Some of us have friends in Japan

Some of us saw that it will be Chernobyl levels many weeks ago and did our best to warn people

actually try and find the reports with numbers in them coming out of the plant...don't just trust TEPCO when they say everything is fine..look at all the things they have covered up in the past...

yesterday everything was stable..today radiation levels are rising at unit 4...that stuff makes no sense..

you are going to have to face the facts....this is not going away in 5/10 years....a large area of japan will be dangerous for the rest of your life...


But no doubt you will dismiss everything I say and try and further troll

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Foddy

 

Even now, it seems you can't.

hmm seems like I have provided facts for everything I said...all dismissed by you

You say there is no gas, and then it seems that "11% say they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline", which is totally different.

actually what I said was

I really like how he says they should evacuate on their own....like they can without gas

so how is that totally different?

I ask you for figures of increased radiation levels and you can't or won't do it.

actually I did do it...but you didn't read the thread it seems...
so in order to help you out..I will post 1 from that thread....there are more but I refuse to hold you hand thru all of them
posted by member MedievalGhost from japan

Just to update you and everyone else here, today my highest reading was .18 microsieverts per hour. My daily average since I got my geiger has always been within normal background levels of around .09 to .10, so this is about double my usual readings. Not deadly levels, but a notable increase.

abovetopsecret.com

but I bet you will find a way to dismiss that too..

You live in the US and only have access to a media whose sole interest (apart from the occasional sob story) is in finding sensational news and building things up to being more than they are.

actually the media I posted was from NHK....YOU are the one that posted info from BBC

Meantime, PLEASE post a link which shows increasing radiation levels in Tokyo

show me where I ever said anything about Tokyo???

And, finally, when the US government starts reducing its number of personnel in Japan because of the threats from radiation, and increases (rather than reduces) the level of its warning about travel to Japan, then I might sit up and take notice.

that makes perfect sense...??? you do know that the military is better suited to handle exposure than civilians right??

you do know that the U.S troops would stay until the very last minute to help right??

As far as I know only some of the family members have left

for the latest travel warnings go here


I really don't know if you are making an effort to troll or if you are just really young..so I am giving you the benefit of doubt here..
really stop and think about what you are posting...take a look at other people replies to you...you are making yourself look bad..take a close hard look at what people are saying...

Some of us have friends in Japan

Some of us saw that it will be Chernobyl levels many weeks ago and did our best to warn people

actually try and find the reports with numbers in them coming out of the plant...don't just trust TEPCO when they say everything is fine..look at all the things they have covered up in the past...

yesterday everything was stable..today radiation levels are rising at unit 4...that stuff makes no sense..

you are going to have to face the facts....this is not going away in 5/10 years....a large area of japan will be dangerous for the rest of your life...


But no doubt you will dismiss everything I say and try and further troll

edit on 13-4-2011 by okiecowboy because: (no reason given)

Okie Cowboy, this is totally bizarre! You still seem to think (and to be trying to persuade others) that the Fukushima situation "will be Chernobyl". Actually, I think I now understand where you are coming from. You say that you said this 'many weeks ago' and I guess you are now trying desperately to justify it. For example, you say that radiation levels in Japan are increasing, but all the evidence you have is that on one occasion (without a date) the level spiked. It also did in Tokyo. You can check the daily readings here:
ftp.jaist.ac.jp...
Levels in Tokyo spiked at 0.0166 (very close to the level you mention of 0.18) on 22nd March.
But you claim that the radiation level is now increasing. What is your evidence for that (other than within the facility itself on a temporary basis)?

I then pointed out to you the comparative numbers of people who died or were infected by radiation sickness in the MONTH after Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated from that the fact that I was under-estimating the number of people who died or became infected after Chernobyl (a complete non sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one).

I am not "really young", I am highly-educated and well-balanced. I try to read scientific information and opinions and form my own judgement on them. So far, I have not read any reputable scientific opinion to the effect that what is happening in Fukushima, terrible though it undoubtedly is, will result in anything like what happened after Chernobyl. For a start, at Chernobyl, an operating nuclear facility exploded, sending radioactive material 30,000 feet into the air. Nothing remotely comparable to that has happened at Fukushima (where the reactors automatically shut down after the earthquake), nor is there the remotest likelihood that it will.

If you have reputable scientific opinion to support the contrary position, please let us see it.

Finally, It is correct that some parts of Japan may be uninhabitable for a certain length of time, but people are again living within the 30 km exclusion area around Chernobyl, which emitted more than 10 times the amount of radiation emitted at Fukushima.

reply to post by Foddy


hmmm just as I figured..ignore everything that is said....why no comments about what info was presented? you spout off about me using U.S media and in fact I wasn't....but anyway...on with your trolling

You still seem to think (and to be trying to persuade others) that the Fukushima situation "will be Chernobyl

the facts are facts...not trying to persuade anyone...
here is a few numbers....

Cesium-137 levels of 3.26 million becquerels per square meter 40 kilometers northwest of the Fukushima plant

compare to most reports of Chernobyl 550,000 becquerels per square meter

yup more than Chernobyl...I can provide links but you wouldn't read it anyway

You say that you said this 'many weeks ago' and I guess you are now trying desperately to justify it

here is a thread I started back on 3-16...not need for me to justify anything...it is what it is

but all the evidence you have is that on one occasion (without a date) the level spiked. It also did in Tokyo. You can check the daily readings here: ftp.jaist.ac.jp... Levels in Tokyo spiked at 0.0166 (very close to the level you mention of 0.18) on 22nd March. But you claim that the radiation level is now increasing. What is your evidence for that (other than within the facility itself on a temporary basis)?

again If you would have bothered..you would see the date was 4-12....btw how long is temporary?

I then pointed out to you the comparative numbers of people who died or were infected by radiation sickness in the MONTH after Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated from that the fact that I was under-estimating the number of people who died or became infected after Chernobyl (a complete non sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one).

sigh...ok the difference is several thousand workers went in and started shoveling out debris by hand at chernobyl at the one reactor.....no one has even gotten a look at the reactors yet in Fukushima...that does not mean it's not as bad....but you won't see it that way

I have not read any reputable scientific opinion to the effect that what is happening in Fukushima, terrible though it undoubtedly is, will result in anything like what happened after Chernobyl

perhaps you should read more...those reports are out there...no matter what one i linked to...it wouldn't be good enough for you for some reason...

For a start, at Chernobyl, an operating nuclear facility exploded, sending radioactive material 30,000 feet into the air. Nothing remotely comparable to that has happened at Fukushima (where the reactors automatically shut down after the earthquake), nor is there the remotest likelihood that it will.

nope Chernobyl had one reactor explode like you said...Fukushima..we have 3 explode and melt downs..and a spent fuel pool fire....your right..not the same....guess what one is worse......but you won't see it any other way...

If you have reputable scientific opinion to support the contrary position, please let us see it.

again no matter what info is provided you it would not be "Reputable" to you..your too blind to anything but what you want to see

Finally, It is correct that some parts of Japan may be uninhabitable for a certain length of time, but people are again living within the 30 km exclusion area around Chernobyl, which emitted more than 10 times the amount of radiation emitted at Fukushima.

yes it is correct that a big part of Japan will be uninhabitable for a long time..and again compare radiation levels around both places and see how that turns out.....and remember Fukushima is still spewing radiation out...

Seriously, Okie Cowboy, you are wasting your time. Foddy is not open to a different opinion. I thought of posting statements by reputable nuclear physicists but it wouldn't do any good. Just know that most people here agree with you. What so many who disagree fail to understand is that we do not want to incite panic. We believe that knowledge is power, and that we have a right to the truth. Some may believe we should not have the truth so panic is avoided. They do not have that right, and should not be their decision to make.

There are things that we can do to protect ourselves and our loved ones from some of the effects of radiation. I have posted sources and information about this on other threads and am not about to do it again here. Just wanted to offer you my support.

reply to post by SammyB

Seriously, Okie Cowboy, you are wasting your time. Foddy is not open to a different opinion. I thought of posting statements by reputable nuclear physicists but it wouldn't do any good

Yeah I know...I told myself to stop several posts ago...I should have listened
I agree..not once was I ever trying to spread fear...simply facts...some people just have blinders on.

And thank you for the support.!!..

Well, Okie Cowboy, I just read some of your stuff, and it's all speculation. This might happen, 29,000 square miles might become uninhabitable (including, presumably, the whole of the Greater Tokyo area which is within the 170 mile radius). I'm quaking in my boots!!

I also read where you say "It would be far wrong for me to tell you to worry or not..I can only speak for myself...
If I lived anywhere on the west coast..I would be packing my families bags for a road trip..just in case."

Now your agenda is really clear. You're out to shock people and now you've put your cards on the table you don't want to back down and say you were wrong. Get on a plane to Tokyo, if you have the guts to do so, and see how life is going on normally here. I just had lunch with a friend who works at the US's Yokota Airbase (also less than 170 miles from the Fukushima plant - wow, danger danger) and things are going on as usual. No radiation suits, no radiation checks, no masks.

I think you need a reality check. Let's face it, you WANT this to become a huge disaster, don't you?

And here's some bedtime reading for you. An article from the BBC 2 days ago.
www.bbc.co.uk...
From which I quote part:

"The manual for agencies using the INES scale, published by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), runs to 218 pages.

One of the criteria for evaluating the severity of an incident is the total release of radioactive material.

This is derived by first adding up the amounts of each different radioactive isotope released, then multiplying each by a conversion factor related to the characteristics of that particular isotope, then adding up all of the resulting numbers.

Radioactivity is measured in bequerels (Bq); a million million of these is a terabequerel (TBq).

A level seven rating is defined as "An event resulting in an environmental release corresponding to a quantity of radioactivity radiologically equivalent to a release to the atmosphere of more than several tens of thousands of TBq of Iodine-131."

NISA puts the Fukushima figure at 370,000 TBq of Iodine-131 equivalent; the Nuclear Safety Commission, which has a more over-arching role in the Japanese system, says 630,000 TBq.
Testing for radiation Japanese authorities have acted very differently from their Soviet counterparts in 1986

Either way, it's clearly beyond the threshold for classification as an INES level seven event, although an order of magnitude lower than the 5.2 million TBq released from Chernobyl."

Approximately 10 times lower.

Okie Cowboy

More reading for you, from the highly respected Financial Times:

www.ft.com...=aff50ade-4bc6-11e0-9705-00144feab49a.html#axzz1JTQaDSIB

reply to post by Foddy


and some more reading for you from the highly respected Ny Times...link

reply to post by Foddy

Now your agenda is really clear. You're out to shock people and now you've put your cards on the table you don't want to back down and say you were wrong

your right..I was wrong....you figured it all out...My agenda was simply to scare everyone..I wrote that thread just hoping you would come along and read it...

So I back down...there is no threat of radiation...
there is no danger to human health


you win....

and some more reading for you from the highly respected Ny Times...link

Thanks, but I wonder if you read it yourself? Here are some extracts:

"Mr. Nishiyama said that his agency did not expect another big escape of radiation from Daiichi, saying that “almost all” the material that is going to escape has already come out. He said that the rate of radiation release had peaked in the early days after the March 11 earthquake, and that the rate of radiation had dropped by 90 percent since then.

The peak release in emissions of radioactive particles took place following hydrogen explosions at three reactors, as technicians desperately tried to pump in seawater to keep the uranium fuel rods cool, and bled radioactive gas from the reactors in order to make room for the seawater.

Mr. Nishiyama took pains to say — and other nuclear experts agreed — that the Japanese accident posed fewer health risks than Chernobyl."

"In the Soviet-era accident at Chernobyl, a burning graphite reactor pushed radioactive particles high into the atmosphere and downwind across Europe. The Japanese accident has mostly produced radioactive liquid runoff into the ocean and low-altitude radioactive particles that have frequently blown out into the ocean and fallen into the water as well."

okiecowboy, are you a sadomasochist or something?

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Foddy

 

Now your agenda is really clear. You're out to shock people and now you've put your cards on the table you don't want to back down and say you were wrong

your right..I was wrong....you figured it all out...My agenda was simply to scare everyone..I wrote that thread just hoping you would come along and read it...

So I back down...there is no threat of radiation...
there is no danger to human health


you win....

Where have I ever said that there was no danger to human health? Especially In the immediate vicinity of the Fukushima reactors I agree that there are some risks (and particularly to workers at the plant who did not wear proper protective clothing or who stayed too long on site).

However, what I have done is point out that I believe you are guilty of exaggeration, and the very fact that you said that if you lived on the West Coast of the USA you would have been standing by to evacuate is evidence of this. I have not seen even a worst case scenario posited which would have shown that there could be any danger, and indeed repeated statements from US authorities confirming that there would be no danger. For example:

"I think there’s essentially no concern in terms of the health effects on American shores,” Secretary of Energy Steven Chu told reporters after testifying before the House Energy and Commerce Committee on his department’s budget.

At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney made the same point, repeating a statement made earlier by a top Nuclear Regulatory Commission official.

“You aren’t going to have any radiological material that, by the time that it traveled those large distances, could present any risk to the American public,” said Mr. Carney.

And

"Health and safety authorities sought to reassure nervous residents that any radioactive particles would disperse as they cross the Pacific from Japan and not pose a public risk when they arrive. Even President Barack Obama weighed in.

"We do not expect harmful levels of radiation to reach the United States, whether it is the West Coast, Hawaii, Alaska or U.S. territories in the Pacific," Obama said in a televised statement. "That is the judgment of our Nuclear Regulatory Commission and many other experts."

Officials have said it would take five or six days for any particles to cross the ocean. Vancouver is more than 4,700 miles (7,500 km) from Tokyo, while Los Angeles is more than 5,400 miles (8,800 km) away."

I think you also do a disservice to any Japanese who may read your comments and are unable for financial or other reasons to leave Japan or the more potentially dangerous areas. Panic can be a dangerous thing and easy to spread.

reply to post by MedievalGhost

okiecowboy, are you a sadomasochist or something?

how does that old saying go? There is a sucker born every minute.....
At least I can say I tried...and tried....and tried

reply to post by Foddy

However, what I have done is point out that I believe you are guilty of exaggeration, and the very fact that you said that if you lived on the West Coast of the USA you would have been standing by to evacuate is evidence of this.

My very last comment to you on this thread...

Look at the date I said that...It was way early...and In fact I still stand by what I said...I would have my bags packed and ready to go....only a fool would not be ready to leave an area if needed...


and with that....Have a Nice life

tut tut Okiecowboy....

How is your head?
hurting I expect, after bashing it against that brick wall.
.
Foddy I respect your comments as you say your in Tokyo. But why have this one to one conversation on this thread when you could enlighten all the other members on the huge page thread on Japan's nuclear/earthquake thread.
I for one would be very interested in your comments on the detailed investigations into the reactors, consequences and radioactive fallout. Maybe you have valuable insight into the realities of what is going on.

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Foddy

 

However, what I have done is point out that I believe you are guilty of exaggeration, and the very fact that you said that if you lived on the West Coast of the USA you would have been standing by to evacuate is evidence of this.

My very last comment to you on this thread...

Look at the date I said that...It was way early...and In fact I still stand by what I said...I would have my bags packed and ready to go....only a fool would not be ready to leave an area if needed...


and with that....Have a Nice life

Some of the comments from US government officials I posted were made on 15th March, only 4 days after the earthquake, so it's difficult to understand your remark that your remark was "way early". In other words even 4 days after the quake, US authorities realised that even in a worst case scenario there would be no danger to the US, but you apparently knew better. And I wonder which part of “You aren’t going to have any radiological material that, by the time that it traveled those large distances, could present any risk to the American public,” you found difficult to believe and why.

But, as you suggest, it's impossible to preach to the already converted. You can carry on postulating imaginary scenarios and I will continue to live happily in Tokyo and rely on scientific opinions. Incidentally, if the situation is or risks getting worse, maybe you can explain why most of the foreign embassies in Tokyo which temporarily moved out of the capital have returned and why almost all of them have revised their travel warnings to the Tokyo area so as to say that there is no longer any potential danger? Of course, this does not accord with your line of reasoning, so I guess you will continue to believe that you know better.