Does Zinc Really Work? Yup! Vitamin C? Not so much...

Originally posted by finalword
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

Of course, you won't die from lack of vitamin C,

Scurvy, anyone?

but megadosing will contribute greatly to good health.

It's just a little unreasonable. And completely unnecessary. A quick reference into epidemiology can tell you that.

Read Linus Pauling's book. You can't get megadoses of vitamin C from healthy diet unless all you're eating is vitamin C rich foods. The only way is through supplementation.

That's the problem though...it's not natural. Nobody is getting chronic degenerative diseases, or colds for that matter, because of a lack of mega dosing with ascorbic acid. I'm not taking anything away from Pauling's brilliance in other fields, but his work is partly responsible for the senseless over supplementation of vitamin c to prevent and treat colds. I've read his work...and it's poorly designed. Clearly there was bias. And there are reasons why his work wasn't accepted by his peers.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


It surprises me that people claim megadosing with vitamin C is the "natural way" to fight infection, when it is anything but natural, as you've pointed out.

On a more on-topic point, I recently received a notice in my inbox (I believe it went unit or hospital-wide) with a link to the new paper validating zinc as a a prophylaxis against the common cold. Neat stuff =)

But, you know, apparently pharma "doesn't let this stuff out"....despite many of these therapies being "out" and endorsed by major allopathic medical groups.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Preply to post by lonegurkha

 

The minuscule amount of artificial sweetener in a lozenge is hardly harmful. However, its important to avoid any spike in blood sugar to avoid the immuno suppresive effects of elevated blood glucose. And your grasp of toxicity is a little off. Toxicity is highly dependent on dose. Zinc is toxic IF you ingestion too much. So is water.

And the solubility of vitamins has to do with how they're excreted. It's not an issue of storage.

edit on 13-3-2011 by DevolutionEvolvd because: (no reason given)

Any amount of artifical sweetner is harmful aspertame is used as ant poision .as you said there is little sugar in a lozenge, but I think you'll find that the "sugar" in that lozenge will be high fructose corn syrup.

I'm pretty sure that my grasp of toxicity is pretty good since I am hazmat qualifyed and have been for 25 years.Perhaps I can help you with some links for you to research the question of toxicity.Truth is it doesn't take much to cause adverse effects.As it happens people tend to take too much in because it tastes sweet and like candy.They don't think about the dose.

www.digitalnaturopath.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.sciencelab.com...

And as for the difference of fat and water soluable vitamins and how they work I think you will find that this link supports what I said in my post.

cysticfibrosis.about.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

I hope that these links will be enlightening for you.

Originally posted by lonegurkha
Any amount of artifical sweetner is harmful aspertame is used as ant poision

Salt kills slugs and snails. Should we label that a toxin, too?

What is poison for one species isn't necessarily poison for another.

I'm pretty sure that my grasp of toxicity is pretty good since I am hazmat qualifyed and have been for 25 years

Being Haz-Mat certified has absolutely nothing to do with understanding toxicology and/or pharmacology. All it means is that you took the afternoon course that qualifies you to dispose of radiologic, chemical, and biological waste. I'm Haz-Mat certified, too, as are almost all doctors (especially in hospitals) and I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert in toxicology.

Your links don't really provide any information about aspartame studies that demonstrate toxic effects. Can you post some research to back your claims? Personal websites just don't cut it in science.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by lonegurkha
Any amount of artifical sweetner is harmful aspertame is used as ant poision

Salt kills slugs and snails. Should we label that a toxin, too?

What is poison for one species isn't necessarily poison for another.

I'm pretty sure that my grasp of toxicity is pretty good since I am hazmat qualifyed and have been for 25 years

Being Haz-Mat certified has absolutely nothing to do with understanding toxicology and/or pharmacology. All it means is that you took the afternoon course that qualifies you to dispose of radiologic, chemical, and biological waste. I'm Haz-Mat certified, too, as are almost all doctors (especially in hospitals) and I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert in toxicology.

Your links don't really provide any information about aspartame studies that demonstrate toxic effects. Can you post some research to back your claims? Personal websites just don't cut it in science.

Well doc maybe your course took an afternoon ,but mine took a 40 hour week and included more than classroom nonsense. Maybe you should read up on the dangers of aspertame there are plenty of threads here to search or do I have to do the work for you.Hazmat isn't the only class I have taken there are many more as we of the chemical industry are required to keep up to date on our knowledge of chemicals and their handling.How much did you learn in your afternoon class? What class of protective clothing are you trained to use? Stick to your doctoring and leave the chemicals to the people who make them.
You're correct my links don't refer to aspertame I'm not going to do all the work to educate you.Look it up yourself,after all you're a doctor so we can assume you can do that right? Ah, you know how to read a MSDS right.

As for any personal websites that were linked I don't have a personal website so you really need to clarify which personal website you're refering to.

Since when do you have to know toxicology to understand how toxic a chemical is?

Originally posted by lonegurkha
Well doc maybe your course took an afternoon ,but mine took a 40 hour week and included more than classroom nonsense.

A whole work week? Well, golly gosh! That TOTALLY puts you on the same level as actual toxicology experts, who typically have PhD in the science!

I mean, a 40 hour class is the same as 5-7 years of graduate studies and research...right?

Maybe you should read up on the dangers of aspertame there are plenty of threads here to search or do I have to do the work for you.

Are you seriously putting ATS threads on the same level as actual studies and research? Is this site where you get all of your scientific data?

I fear for whomever relies on you as a Haz-Mat worker if the breadth of your scientific research is ATS.

Stick to your doctoring and leave the chemicals to the people who make them.

But YOU DON'T MAKE THEM. You haven't shown a single bit of knowledge regarding aspartame. You can't even spell is correctly! Geez!

You're correct my links don't refer to aspertame I'm not going to do all the work to educate you.Look it up yourself,after all you're a doctor so we can assume you can do that right?

So, rather than supporting your points, you're just going to blather on with half-truths and whole-lies, and then demand OTHER PEOPLE find the supporting work?

What a laugh.

As for any personal websites that were linked I don't have a personal website so you really need to clarify which personal website you're refering to

Please learn to read posts before replying to them. At no point did claim you linked to YOUR personal site. I was referring to the unprofessional "naturopath" sites you linked, which make poor attempts at seeming "scientific".

Since when do you have to know toxicology to understand how toxic a chemical is?

You sure as hell better understand toxicology if you're going to call yourself a "toxicology expert" and make claims about dosage, adverse effects, and toxic potential.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by unityemissions

 

The liver is probably the most nutritious part of any animal (organ meats and bone marrow). They filter everything...and are extremely nutrient dense. But there really is no comparison to the ascorbic acid in animal liver (a few mg/liver) vs supplements (500-1000/pill). And Linus Pauling, and others, are suggesting hyperdosing. There's absolutely no possible way.

WTF are you talking about, LOL!!!

Animals synthesize GRAMS per day!!

I think you're terribly confused!

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Ok Doc whatever you say.Too lazy to see all the links posted here that tell how dangerous the stuff is.If you wish to remain uninformed and continue to belittle my years of training then go ahead,Your loss.Don't think just because your a doctor that you know everything...you don't. If you had to be a toxicologist to be safe from chemicals we'd all be dead.including you by your own admission.

Originally posted by lonegurkha
Don't think just because your a doctor that you know everything...you don't. .

Pot, this is kettle.

Also:

Case-control study shows no links between aspartame and common neoplasms

Safety and toxicology evaluation shows no connection between aspartame and neoplasms

Italian study shows no link between aspartame and common neoplasms

Originally posted by unityemissions
WTF are you talking about, LOL!!!

Animals synthesize GRAMS per day!!

I think you're terribly confused!

A roughly 70kg animal (humans included) synthesize less than 15 grams per day, which is distributed throughout the body as it is made. Unless you're eating an entire animal every day, you simply can't hit the "megadose" level through natural means.

Wiki actually has a concise and accurate chart showing the amount of ascorbic acid per 100g in various animal products.

Animal sources of ascorbic acid

You'll note that the most vitamin C-rich source (raw calf liver) still only provides 36mg/100g. That's because animals don't horde vitamin C in any one particular place - it is distributed all over the body for use by various cells.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Doc my concerns with aspartame were never related to cancer.The biggest reported symptoms are neurological.Always have been.I never said anything about cancer.So here's some links which I'm quite sure you won't approve of.

www.medicinenet.com...
www.natural-health-information-centre.com...
www.dorway.com...
www.rense.com...
aspartame.mercola.com...

This is all I'm gonna do for you.If you chose not to believe then good luck to you and yours.I won't be consuming any poision from Searle and Monsanto any time soon.

reply to post by unityemissions


....perhaps. But those GRAMS per day, produced in the liver, don't simply set up shop in the liver. Much like glycogen doesn't just stick around in the liver of humans. You of all people should know that Ascorbate is USED by the body.

I'm pretty sure it's you who is terribly mistaken.

There's more Vitamin C in a Brussels Sprout than a Chicken or Beef Liver.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by unityemissions
WTF are you talking about, LOL!!!

Animals synthesize GRAMS per day!!

I think you're terribly confused!

A roughly 70kg animal (humans included) synthesize less than 15 grams per day, which is distributed throughout the body as it is made. Unless you're eating an entire animal every day, you simply can't hit the "megadose" level through natural means.

Actually, it's not nearly as static as you make it out to be. As the stress increases, so does the synthesis of ascorbic acid.

I have no clue why you're so boxed in your thinking!

Of course you can't naturally make up that dose. What is your definition of natural?! LOL! At one point in our history, it was natural to synthesize "megadoses" of ascorbic acid. We lost this ability. Now it doesn't seem to be "natural".

Wiki actually has a concise and accurate chart showing the amount of ascorbic acid per 100g in various animal products.

Animal sources of ascorbic acid

You'll note that the most vitamin C-rich source (raw calf liver) still only provides 36mg/100g. That's because animals don't horde vitamin C in any one particular place - it is distributed all over the body for use by various cells.

Once again, it's not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be. The synthesis is determined by need and ability. As the animal which has this ability becomes more stressed/diseased, it will up-regulate the production as long as the benefit outweighs the detriment (resources used). Is this not intuitively understood ?!

From your wiki source:

Goats, like almost all animals, make their own vitamin C. An adult goat, weighing approx. 70 kg, will manufacture more than 13,000 mg of vitamin C per day in normal health, and levels manyfold higher when faced with stress

Yes, healthy diet is always the best when wanting to fight off sickness...absolute no point in having a crap diet with fast food/pre packaged meals and then popping some multi vitamins and minerals in the morning, or eating a few 'superfood' mumbo jumbo and thinking you are somehow healthy, far too many people take them instead of changing to a healthier diet and reaping far more benefits. Guess popping a few pills is easier...surprise surprise.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by unityemissions

 

....perhaps. But those GRAMS per day, produced in the liver, don't simply set up shop in the liver. Much like glycogen doesn't just stick around in the liver of humans. You of all people should know that Ascorbate is USED by the body.

First off, I'd like to apologize for my ...passionate stance.. no, I'll say it: I was being an asshole. My apologies.

I think there's merely a misunderstanding in exactly what each other meant by each others words. I took some of what you said incorrectly. I apologize for this as well.

You're correct. The liver doesn't keep the grams, nor does it produce this all at once. I didn't understand that your point was that you couldn't naturally obtain these grams by eating healthy foods alone. This is correct.

The thing is... this doesn't say much! Most other animals produce very large amounts, compared to what we get from our diets. To think that we're somehow special, or that we couldn't benefit from those same, higher doses .... seems to be illogical.

If your point is that we must now ingest these very large doses by supplements, so it must be unnatural and detrimental.... well, I just think that's illogical. I have no problem whatsoever ingesting grams of ascorbic acid daily, popping a few pills or taking in some powder. If it works for nearly every other animal out there, then I'll go with common sense and say that it would benefit our health, in seemingly subtle, yet actually profound ways. I'll take the risk.

reply to post by Solomons


I'm not falling for your strawman.

I eat a very healthy diet, AND choose to maximize my bodies potential by supplementing.

The environment is far to mucked up not to, imo.

reply to post by unityemissions


Your bodies potential...care to extrapolate on that? If you eat a healthy diet then what do pills achieve that the diet does not? apart from extremely expensive urine of course. If you genuinely do need these pills then you would be in the minority, the majority of the now multibillion dollar industry in vitamin and mineral supplements is supported by gullible people who would rather pop pills and think they are healthy because of it rather than bother to eat a healthy diet which would do far more good than any pill.

Originally posted by unityemissions

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Most other animals produce very large amounts, compared to what we get from our diets. To think that we're somehow special, or that we couldn't benefit from those same, higher doses .... seems to be illogical.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Many other animals are herbivorous. Does that mean we would benefit from consuming a purely vegan diet? If you believe that we evolved from ape like creatures and that those animals consumed a diet almost entirely vegetarian, using your logic, we should benefit from adopting that same diet....even though it's becoming clear that what our ancestors ate may have directly influenced evolutionary changes in our physiology/anatomy.

I'm not saying that's the case with the loss of the enzyme that allows for humans to synthesize ascorbic acid; rather, I'm saying it's a bit fallacious to assume that, ecause the majority of the animal kingdom can produce their own, we should also and therefore would benefit greatly from megadosing.

You've pointed out, already, that stress levels determine levels of vitamin c production in those animals that can produce it. Would it be illogical to postulate that, as we evolved, stressors and stress levels were lowered, simultaneously decreasing the need for megadosing? Just a thought...

reply to post by Solomons


I honestly don't think you spoke a single bit of truth in your post.

Just more nonsense, so I'll be sure not to reply to you again on this topic in the future.

Thanks for letting me know where you stand!

This conversation should include Vit-D3 as well. The research on it in prevention of the common cold and flu is noteworthy. See this CNN Health article. Vitamin D may protect against common cold.

It makes sense since colds are common in the winter and we cover up our skin at that time because of the cold weather. Thus we produce less endogenous Vitamin D as a result of this behavior.