I have a question for christians (not offensive)

Originally posted by DanUKphd
Yes. If you don't believe the bible which you can prove using simple maths then yes you're going to hell. There's a mathematical authentication code in the Bible and anyone who can count to a hundred is capable of proving the bible. Sorry to be so abrupt but unless you see the truth you're going to hell.

I really do not understand what you mean by this. I have an A-Level in maths (a grade proving i am a very capable mathematician). You can prove ancient writings documenting tall tales, such as ones of the bible are correct, by having the ability to count to 100?

Originally posted by Fconspiracy

Originally posted by DanUKphd
Yes. If you don't believe the bible which you can prove using simple maths then yes you're going to hell. There's a mathematical authentication code in the Bible and anyone who can count to a hundred is capable of proving the bible. Sorry to be so abrupt but unless you see the truth you're going to hell.

I really do not understand what you mean by this. I have an A-Level in maths (a grade proving i am a very capable mathematician). You can prove ancient writings documenting tall tales, such as ones of the bible are correct, by having the ability to count to 100?

Oh Good, i've been looking for a mathmatician actually...

www.youtube.com... check out this video series and see if its correct, i'd be interested to know honestly...

Try to ignore the preaching and concentrate on the math of it though

reply to post by Akragon


As the YouTube video pointed out, there were many versions of the Bible. As remember by the time the King James version was authorized, it could mean death if you were caught with anything else. Remember that God is no respector of persons. He certainly is not concerned with what book you read about him. The important fact is that you believe in him. No two humans think and process information exactly alike. So even about Christians in the same church there will be differing levels of comprehension and different interpretations. So really we all have our own religion (for lack of a better word).

Hell was something devised as a way to control the people. Do this or else type of thing. Jesus never taugh about it. He only spoke of a loving and caring Father. A Father of all people, regardless of nationality, race or religion. Jesus also never wrote on anything but the dirt because he wanted to avoid relic worship by his followers and once something is written on paper it becomes static and dead. He taught that truth must be alive and active and change with the times. Due to this is Apostles did not begin writing about him till almost 10 years after his death.

Consider this:

The Gospel by Mark. John Mark wrote the earliest (excepting the notes of Andrew), briefest, and most simple record of Jesus' life. He presented the Master as a minister, as man among men. Although Mark was a lad lingering about many of the scenes which he depicts, his record is in reality the Gospel according to Simon Peter. He was early associated with Peter; later with Paul. Mark wrote this record at the instigation of Peter and on the earnest petition of the church at Rome. Knowing how consistently the Master refused to write out his teachings when on earth and in the flesh, Mark, like the apostles and other leading disciples, was hesitant to put them in writing. But Peter felt the church at Rome required the assistance of such a written narrative, and Mark consented to undertake its preparation. He made many notes before Peter died in A.D. 67, and in accordance with the outline approved by Peter and for the church at Rome, he began his writing soon after Peter's death. The Gospel was completed near the end of A.D. 68. Mark wrote entirely from his own memory and Peter's memory. The record has since been considerably changed, numerous passages having been taken out and some later matter added at the end to replace the latter one fifth of the original Gospel, which was lost from the first manuscript before it was ever copied. This record by Mark, in conjunction with Andrew's and Matthew's notes, was the written basis of all subsequent Gospel narratives which sought to portray the life and teachings of Jesus.

The Gospel of Matthew. The so-called Gospel according to Matthew is the record of the Master's life which was written for the edification of Jewish Christians. The author of this record constantly seeks to show in Jesus' life that much which he did was that "it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet." Matthew's Gospel portrays Jesus as a son of David, picturing him as showing great respect for the law and the prophets. The Apostle Matthew did not write this Gospel. It was written by Isador, one of his disciples, who had as a help in his work not only Matthew's personal remembrance of these events but also a certain record which the latter had made of the sayings of Jesus directly after the crucifixion. This record by Matthew was written in Aramaic; Isador wrote in Greek. There was no intent to deceive in accrediting the production to Matthew. It was the custom in those days for pupils thus to honor their teachers. Matthew's original record was edited and added to in A.D. 40 just before he left Jerusalem to engage in evangelistic preaching. It was a private record, the last copy having been destroyed in the burning of a Syrian monastery in A.D. 416. Isador escaped from Jerusalem in A.D. 70 after the investment of the city by the armies of Titus, taking with him to Pella a copy of Matthew's notes. In the year 71, while living at Pella, Isador wrote the Gospel according to Matthew. He also had with him the first four fifths of Mark's narrative.

The Gospel by Luke. Luke, the physician of Antioch in Pisidia, was a gentile convert of Paul, and he wrote quite a different story of the Master's life. He began to follow Paul and learn of the life and teachings of Jesus in A.D. 47. Luke preserves much of the "grace of the Lord Jesus Christ" in his record as he gathered up these facts from Paul and others. Luke presents the Master as "the friend of publicans and sinners." He did not formulate his many notes into the Gospel until after Paul's death. Luke wrote in the year 82 in Achaia. He planned three books dealing with the history of Christ and Christianity but died in A.D. 90 just before he finished the second of these works, the "Acts of the Apostles." As material for the compilation of his Gospel, Luke first depended upon the story of Jesus' life as Paul had related it to him. Luke's Gospel is, therefore, in some ways the Gospel according to Paul. But Luke had other sources of information. He not only interviewed scores of eyewitnesses to the numerous episodes of Jesus' life which he records, but he also had with him a copy of Mark's Gospel, that is, the first four fifths, Isador's narrative, and a brief record made in the year A.D. 78 at Antioch by a believer named Cedes. Luke also had a mutilated and much-edited copy of some notes purported to have been made by the Apostle Andrew.

The Gospel of John. The Gospel according to John relates much of Jesus' work in Judea and around Jerusalem which is not contained in the other records. This is the so-called Gospel according to John the son of Zebedee, and though John did not write it, he did inspire it. Since its first writing it has several times been edited to make it appear to have been written by John himself. When this record was made, John had the other Gospels, and he saw that much had been omitted; accordingly, in the year A.D. 101 he encouraged his associate, Nathan, a Greek Jew from Caesarea, to begin the writing. John supplied his material from memory and by reference to the three records already in existence. He had no written records of his own. The Epistle known as "First John" was written by John himself as a covering letter for the work which Nathan executed under his direction.

Gesus man, you couldn't have made that post a little shorter could you...

All that information is great, but thats not what i was asking.....i wanted to see if a mathmatician can make anything of those hepetadic codes...pardon the spelling.

reply to post by mbartelsm


First Are you that person whom you are speaking of?

Your question is not an easy one to answer, most people who believe in Christ believe you have to be sorry for your sins and be forgiven for them by God. Not all sins are going to cause anyone to goto hell, some sins even those that have not been forgiven can be paid for in purgatory after death. Then there are the 7 deadly sins, now dying with these unforgiven are said to be a different story these will send you to hell.

I like to think my God is most clever and his love beyond measure, I dont think he came here to do a so so job of saving everyone he could. No he came for Victory! And as God knows you full well and seeing as he alone is your judge Im certain if you lived acording to his ways yet you had doubts about him, would not exclude you for even one of his disciples had these doubts and he knew him in person.

There will be other Christians who will tell you that he said you have to Believe in him. Well Believing in him is shown through good works.

Alas I cannot answer your question for like I said he alone is your judge...

Originally posted by BeenieWeenie
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

First

Are you that person whom you are speaking of?

First No 1-Liners: Please do not create minimal "me too," "I agree," or similar very-short replies.
Second You forgot to actually answer
Third I'm really happy, specially with my set of beliefs

reply to post by 5StarOracle

some sins even those that have not been forgiven can be paid for in purgatory after death.

Cite the chapter and verse for this idea for me please.

reply to post by mbartelsm

Hey, I sent you a private message. Most forget to check it. Hope it helps

reply to post by Akragon


Sorry for the long post. Had a lot to say. Anyway to discuss you question about the mathematiccal codes found in the bible, primarly 7, I wanted to supply a quote from The Urantia Book. But first I wanted to explain why 7 is important. 7 is the maximum combination of assioiation of Deity (Father, Son and Spirit). If you don't know what I mean by that here it is:

1. Father
2. Son
3. Spirit
4. Father, Son
5. Father , Spirit
6. Son, Spirit
7. Father,Son and Spirit

The quote from Paper 42 (Energy-Mind and Matter)
"Religion is not alone dogmatic; natural philosophy equally tends to dogmatize. When a renowned religious teacher reasoned that the number seven was fundamental to nature because there are seven openings in the human head, if he had known more of chemistry, he might have advocated such a belief founded on a true phenomenon of the physical world. There is in all the physical universes of time and space, notwithstanding the universal manifestation of the decimal constitution of energy, the ever-present reminder of the reality of the sevenfold electronic organization of prematter. The number seven is basic to the central universe and the spiritual system of inherent transmissions of character, but the number ten, the decimal system, is inherent in energy, matter, and the material creation. Nevertheless the atomic world does display a certain periodic characterization which recurs in groups of seven—a birthmark carried by this material world indicative of its far-distant spiritual origin. This sevenfold persistence of creative constitution is exhibited in the chemical domains as a recurrence of similar physical and chemical properties in segregated periods of seven when the basic elements are arranged in the order of their atomic weights. When the Urantia chemical elements are thus arranged in a row, any given quality or property tends to recur by sevens. This periodic change by sevens recurs diminishingly and with variations throughout the entire chemical table, being most markedly observable in the earlier or lighter atomic groupings. Starting from any one element, after noting some one property, such a quality will change for six consecutive elements, but on reaching the eighth, it tends to reappear, that is, the eighth chemically active element resembles the first, the ninth the second, and so on. Such a fact of the physical world unmistakably points to the sevenfold constitution of ancestral energy and is indicative of the fundamental reality of the sevenfold diversity of the creations of time and space. Man should also note that there are seven colors in the natural spectrum. But not all the suppositions of natural philosophy are valid; for example, the hypothetical ether, which represents an ingenious attempt of man to unify his ignorance of space phenomena. The philosophy of the universe cannot be predicated on the observations of so-called science. If such a metamorphosis could not be seen, a scientist would be inclined to deny the possibility of developing a butterfly out of a caterpillar. Physical stability associated with biologic elasticity is present in nature only because of the well-nigh infinite wisdom possessed by the Master Architects of creation. Nothing less than transcendental wisdom could ever design units of matter which are at the same time so stable and so efficiently flexible."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by 5StarOracle

 

some sins even those that have not been forgiven can be paid for in purgatory after death.

Cite the chapter and verse for this idea for me please.

I'm still waiting for that chapter and verse too....or catechism page, whatever ever floats your boat

Originally posted by mbartelsm
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I agree with you, whats worth is the intention and I intend to make this world a better place, I have faith that humanity will some day realize that and become better.

I know I try not commit wrong doings not because of salvation (an advantage of being agnostic-atheist) but because of happiness, and the only way to be happy is to make those around me happy, is to make this world a better place.

Dear mbartelsm,

I am sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I read what was posted afterwards. You said something very powerful and I am sorry that people did not pick up on it. You asked whether or not you could be saved if all you wanted to do was make the world a better place. Some people told you that you had to accept "Christ" as your saviour (want to see me upset other Chritians, here it comes), we are told to know the heart of Christ and the heart you described is the heart of Christ. You said you wanted to do good not to be saved; but, for it's own sake, that is the heart of Christ.

I believe that the person with the heart of Christ does not do good in exchange for salvation, he does it because it is the right thing to do and because of this he is saved. I will be attacked by others claiming to be Christians and have been before; but, they miss the issue and fall into the same trap that the Jews of the old testament did. They believe they have a lock on eternity without having to be loving. Doesn't work that way and contradicts what we are told in the bible, many will come and say they knew me; but, I never knew you (I paraphrase what Jesus said). He knows people by their hearts and not some ritual. It also says, "Your traditions make void the word of God".

Salvation (if you believe in such a thing) is a tricky thing, Some believe it means we get to go to heaven and have everything we want, the Club Med experience. It says in heaven all tears will be wiped away, it doesn't say that we take a long nap and get pampered. There are non-believers who have good hearts and are afraid that if they are wrong about God then they will risk going to hell, so they try and hedge their bets. If I live a good life then I am saved even if I am wrong; but, it is still wrong. Live a loving and giving life and who could possibly fault you; but, it is only a loving life if it is out of concern for others. Jesus said there is no greater love than one who gives his life for others, aetheists and others have given their lives for others, how can any Christian say that they would be condemned to hell for doing so; but, not accepting a name.

If any Christian thinks that because he knows a name he is saved, he better try reading Paul. Even the demons know that Christ is king, that does not save them. Too many refuse to circumsize their their hearts, Christian, Jew and aetheist. My ex-wife believed in Jesus, attended church and cheated on me. She then attended church with her married partner. She told me that she was saved so she was incapable of sin, it was a justification for her actions rather than a hinderance. She was more concerned about actions than her heart.

It is not about names, it is not about actions, it is about love. If you love others and don't want to see them in pain, if you love them as you love yourself, then your actions will follow. I don't like it when people ask me if I have been saved, they certainly cannot save me or you, only we can choose who we are and if our reasons are selfish then we miss the boat. Whether there is a God or not (and I believe there is), shouldn't we still care about one another, isn't that the best we have to offer. If there is no afterlife, if I am wrong and there is no God then I lived the way I believed in and that is good enough. If there is a God and it is not the God of my understanding, then I can look him in the face and say that I did the best I could. If he condemns me to hell for that, I will not like it; but, I did the best I could and that is all I could do. If that were the case then free will would be a trap rather than an opportunity, I don't imagine my God doing that to me or to anyone else.

Originally posted by mbartelsm
Hello ATS christian members, I have had a doubt for a while:
What happens to a person who do not commit sins and/or regret the ones done and tries to repair them, but doesn't believe in your God?
I mean, if a person who is better than many, if not most, of us just doesn't believe, is he or she going to hell?

It is known that Christ taught the 'inner Christ' or the 'Christ within us all', and so that I feel that if you are true to yourself and others that God's light may still shine down upon you. I believe in Christ. However, I think that God may have used others like him to convey the message to other civilizations, thus the correlation's between Him and others and their similarities. I suggest reading the Bible and seeking your own true answer and following your heart and what it tells you is right and wrong. I'm like you, just another sinner with the blessing of a life upon this planet and the opportunities to right my wrongs and live in God's image.

I personally believe there is a higher being, God if you want. I believe that man has warped the belief in a higher being into what ever they desired, be it control, or what ever. The book we all currently call the bible I feel has been tainted and twisted. The version most use now days is based on a translation ordered by a king, that says it all for me.

I felt the same way, then I read the Book of Romans. It clearly states that we must believe in our hearts that Jesus was sent here to deliver us, and that we are to love God above all others, and love our neighbor as ourselves and in doing so, we fullfill all of God's Commandments. The way I see it, when Jesus came, he fullfilled the Law of Moses for us because we could not live by those laws. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

reply to post by mbartelsm


Hey...human opinion means little as to your questions. But there are orthodox answers to what you asked that are generally accepted within christendome irregardless of denomination. My qualifications to answer your question is that I have ministry experience and I am currently working on a Master's Degree in Seminary. So...

The bible teaches that all human beings sin. Humans are born with sin so it's not a matter of trying to be good and trying not to sin. Once your born into the world...your part of it all. That the bible says all humans have sin read Romans Chapter 3.

Jesus stated in John 3:3, 5 that a human being MUST be born again. In greek, "born again" means spiritual birth from above (heaven). This takes place in a second in time when a person "repents" (metanoia in greek meaning a change of mind). In order to go to heaven, a person must be born again according to Jesus himself.

If a person goes through their life and is never born again, then yes they must be seperated from God for eternity. There is no way out of this. A person cannot deny God in life and spend eternity with God in heaven. You can't have your cake and eat it to..so to speak.

Incidently, salvation cannot be earned by "being good" etc. Read Ephesians 2:8-9 about this. Salvation is a free gift accepted or rejected by human beings. Repent means to change your mind, accept that you are what the bible calls you..a sinner. One who has trangressed against a Holy God. Accept that Jesus died for your sin...your transgressions against God. Once you have "repented" in such fashion...call out to Jesus and ask him to save you. This is the way of being born again.......

Salvation is simple. Believe in God as your Father, which in turn means man is your brother. Period! Just that simple. Over the centuries religious teachers from nearly all religion have tried to teach this and largely have failed because man just simply refuses to believe it is that easy.

reply to post by mbartelsm


religion has been used to control the masses for thousands of years, through fear and the ignorance of the population many have submitted, without question, to the tenets of a religion most dont fully understand. sin and hell, have both been used sense the beginning of this religion as a method of gaining converts and making sure people listen and obey the religion/state. only this religion has lessons to learn from, only this book has the words of the creator, and if you do not obey, if you do not submit to these beliefs, you will spend an eternity of torture in the abyss. infinity is something most cant even comprehend.

i personally feel that sin doesnt really exist in the way the majority of christians believe it to be. we humans are ment to make mistakes and learn, we will indeed inevitably do wrong, and hopefully learn from those wrongs. i dont feel like sin is so black and white. i dont think the creator of the universe (espically the christian god, all loving, all knowing, etc) would condem anyone, even the most vial murder rapists freak, to an eternity of torture and pain, maybe purgatory or something like that, but i dont fell like the "judgement" of our souls happens in this way

i believe when we are in the presence of God, the creator, we are consumed with love and intensity beyond anything we can imagine, our natural instinct would be to want to impress and be accepted. you and god watch everything you have ever done, together,everything you should have done, or could have done, what could have happend. in his presence, the feeling of guilt, and inadequacy and disgust in yourself will be so utterly overwhelming, even for the most devout and kindest human, the judgment that you place on yourself, the disgust in yourself for not doing enough, for not doing better, is the judgment that some speak of, and you yourself would probably condemn yourself to hell if you could. and in my belief, this is when God comes to us and covers us in an unimaginable feeling of love and acceptance.

my god once said, "go love someone the way i love you,"
i think if we make a true conscious and consistent effort at this, we will all be ok

Originally posted by UB2120
Salvation is simple. Believe in God as your Father, which in turn means man is your brother. Period! Just that simple. Over the centuries religious teachers from nearly all religion have tried to teach this and largely have failed because man just simply refuses to believe it is that easy.

Really? It's that easy? Do you think the fallen angels believe God is their Father? I wonder if Satan realizes he was created by God? Hmmm, that's all it takes huh? Interesting.

Originally posted by KJV1611

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by 5StarOracle

 

some sins even those that have not been forgiven can be paid for in purgatory after death.

Cite the chapter and verse for this idea for me please.

I'm still waiting for that chapter and verse too....or catechism page, whatever ever floats your boat

What's taking so long? Such a major doctrine there must be substantial Biblical support for it.