Unions Threaten Business

reply to post by Sinnthia


Your right sorry im very passionate about this topic and i see my mistake. Carry on!

OP,

I read your post, and I feel compelled to respond.

I am a resident of Wisconsin, I am currently a student at one of the Technical Colleges, pursuing a degree in criminal justice with the intention to become a police office within the state of Wisconsin.

You make this boycotting out to be almost like the mafia going around threatening people, but what it is to clarify for everyone, the unions are boycotting certain businesses whose owners have provided large donations to Scott Walkers campaign. they are also passing out little "tickets" along with the purchases that them make to show businesses who much they make from union workers, and how much they may lose when they don't have that money to spend.

this is not a bullying tactic, it is people standing up for their rights.

Originally posted by Tomyj04
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Your right sorry im very passionate about this topic and i see my mistake. Carry on!

edit on 13-3-2011 by Tomyj04 because: spellinh

No problem. I starred that post anyway because I still agreed with the point you were making to me.

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by whaaa

 

November 2, 2010
Scott Walker 1,128,159 52%
Tom Barrett 1,005,008 47%

This is what democracy looks like.

Unfortunately, democracy is messy sometimes and also looks like this.

Huge Wis. rally vows recall steps vs. Walker, others
Wis. governor greeted at Washburn fundraiser by thousands of protesters

5:45 p.m. to the Steak Pit for a Republican Lincoln Day fundraiser. The large, boisterous crowd, which had been lining the streets leading to the restaurant since 4:30, quickly recognized him and erupted in boos and shouts of “Recall Walker.”

Recall Effort Launched Against Wis. GOP Senators

Since recalls are perfectly legitimate, if recall efforts are successful, how will opinions and defenses be altered?

Funny seems like stuff I could be prosecuted for under the RICO act...............
Of course it doesn't apply to the unions, only other forms of organized crime.

Originally posted by ecdude
this is not a bullying tactic, it is people standing up for their rights.

Yeah I am a little more than confused by the OPs premise here. Should people be forced to patronize certain businesses and buy certain products? That would be the alternative right?

A boycott is basically the heart of the free market. It is people voting with their dollars by choosing what to buy and from whom. How can anyone be railing against that?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
Funny seems like stuff I could be prosecuted for under the RICO act...............
Of course it doesn't apply to the unions, only other forms of organized crime.

Can you elaborate how this should fall under the RICO act, please?

Originally posted by centurion1211
Unions continue to act like thugs.

Here we actually have the the police and fire unions threatening a business if they won't support the unions against the Wisconsin governor.

yes, unions are a threat to big buisness. Thats why they exist. Without Socialized unions regular working people would have absolutely no power to do ANYTHING.

Without unions, Corporations are free to rack up massive debt, and then relieve the debt by cutting peoples wages instead of having the top 2% pay slightly more taxes, or maybe getting rid of Corperate bonuses.

And you demonize unions for fighting for their collective rights? either you havent thought about it, your in the top 2%, or your just a horrible individual who doesnt care about the democratic process.

All of TS should be siding against Gov. walker, and proceed to burning down his house raiding his bank accounts and having his kids be taught by wageless retards

reply to post by adifferentbreed


I hope your kidding. Is it illegal to to boycott a business? Is there a law being broken?

reply to post by adifferentbreed


That's ridiculous. Groups, individuals and organizations threaten boycotts all the time. If you were to threaten to boycott businesses by yourself or otherwise you would not be prosecuted under RICO, and you know it. I won't even go into the ridiculousness of comparing labor unions to organized crime.

Originally posted by NoArmsJames
reply to post by adifferentbreed

 

That's ridiculous. Groups, individuals and organizations threaten boycotts all the time. If you were to threaten to boycott businesses by yourself or otherwise you would not be prosecuted under RICO, and you know it. I won't even go into the ridiculousness of comparing labor unions to organized crime.

I'm a proud union member but it would be naive to think that organized crime hasn't played a role in unions. Especially the teamsters. That being said....

Do these people look like members of organized crime.

www.youtube.com...

Comparing todays unions to organized crime is at best a strawman argument and at the worst, desperate, pitiful crybaby whining.

Originally posted by EssenceOfSilence
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

The extortion I speak of is the extortion of the tax payer through collective bargaining. Fix it and you can collective bargain till the cows come home.

Ever heard of a situation where an argument is "not even wrong"? It's when an argument presented is so off-the-wall and irrelevant that it doesn't even fall under the scope of what's being discussed. What you've got here is a cluster of lies that you've been told that you've welded together - by intent or just by getting htem stuck in your head, I can't say - that end up with a "not even wrong" position.

Collective bargaining is nothing like extortion. It's when workers discuss among themselves as to what they would like from their employer, then come to the employer to discuss.

Second, the situation with public employees and their bargaining does not actually impact the taxpayer. They negotiate for a slice of the money that's already been set aside for faculty and staff pay. When the teachers' union for instance asks for a pay raise. they're not asking for you to pay more in taxes (since they pay taxes too, it'd be self-defeating). Rather, there is money already set aside in the budget for faculty, as well as the discretionary budget. This is what they are asking for a slice of. This slice will usually come out of excess in either the faculty or discretionary budgets, though in theory it could also come from a trim from the non-union management wages (and if you've ever had to deal with a school district's superintendent you know as well as I do that they deserve to be paid in potatoes and rocks anyway )

Boycotts are not extortion, Boycott yourself silly. I don't care. Boycotting doesn't make you a criminal and I never said that. Get your facts straight.

But their is a penalty if the business refuses. They threaten them with a boycott. Get your facts straight, again.

lolwhut

I agree the democratic process will take care of this issue, but it will most likely have to wait until election day. The voters can elect some new folks to pass a bill with collective bargaining rights included if that is what they truly want. That is how our republic works.

Actually it looks like it'll only have to wait until Walker and his antidemocratic cronies are ridden out of hte state on a rail. 100,000 people gathering in protest and in support of Walker's impeachment. Fact of the matter is, you can't just close a vote after ten seconds, much less five. You can't do this against the will of the people, through authoritarian majority rule paired with hte threat of violence, and expect it to work.

The democratic process isn't just sitting on your butt until election day, you know.

I for one do hope the public unions get the right to collective bargain back, but with some reform that takes the extortion out of the process and the TAX PAYER will not feel like they are being raped by both parties, the unions and the elected officials. I have proposed a solution to this many times on other threads.

My proposals remove the power to extort from the unions, but does let them support the workers and collective bargain. The tax payer has to be represented since they pay the bill in the end, the old process did not allow this due to corruption.

Until the public union system is reformed, I can not support it in it's old form since it is a bad deal for the tax payer.

Well, like I explained (albeit incompletely, I only have so much time in the world) the union system - public and private - do not work in the manner you are being told that they work. That is, you're being lied to.

I want you to take a moment and consider the source of the message you're getting. Who owns it? Who advertises on it? Odds are, whatever the source of your news, it is owned by and paid for by what we can colloquially call "big business." Clear Channel, FOX, Disney, Ford, whatever owners / sponsors you can think of most likely fall under this aegis. Agreed?

Now, with the source in mind, ask yourself; does big business have anything to gain from telling you, the consumer, that unions are bad, that collective bargaining is "extortion," that pensions are theft from the taxpayer, and all these other things? Do you know if any of these owners or sponsors are vehemently anti-labor against their own employees? If you've ever seen an ad for McDonalds, Starbucks, or Wal-Mart while watching your FOX Affiliate, well, you know the answer already.

And of course you realize that with the fairness doctrine abolished there is no longer any mandate to present two sides to a story, right? Pair that with the fact that since broadcast went digital, and public airwaves are no longer used, there's no way to require that the "news" actually tell you the truth, right?

So, take all this into account, then ask yourself, "Am I being lied to? Is there an agenda at work here?" - I'll leave you to reach your own conclusions, but I'm pretty sure you know the one i've reached.

I have yet to read from anyone supporting the union side a solution the fixes the issue (restores collective bargaining and takes the corruption out of the process). I would be glad to review any and give my opinion.

edit on 12-3-2011 by EssenceOfSilence because: spelling

Well, you haven't heard about it for the same reasons you don't hear astronomers talking about what to do in case we are invaded by fluffy pink unicorns from the Oort cloud, either. Even if Crazy Glen Beck starts ranting about our immediate takeover by Unicorn Overlords, even if his hue and cry is picked up by every listener he has, this doesn't make his "concern" based in reality. Asking astronomers to respond would just get you a blank stare, maybe stifled laughter. it's simply a non-issue. Same with what you bring up here, it's just not a facet of reality.

reply to post by whaaa


Damn right. I've already challenged another "unions are criminals" poster to prove that I, or my SEIU local are engaged in criminal activity, and if we are, to take it to the West Washington DA. Gave him her contact information and everything.

So far nobody's knocked on my door, so I have to assume the guy was either full of it, or doesn't know how to work a telephone.

We're only "criminals" to the minds of those who want to exploit us, and those poor folks who've bought their snake oil.

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by Garfee

 

Uhm ??? Because that's what the "taxpayers" pay them to do ??? Not the unions. The taxpayers.

No, the taxpayers do not pay them. The Taxpayers pay the government which in turn pay public servants.

reply to post by Tomyj04


I think he believes that this country is actually Israel.

Israel seeks to make boycotts illegal including allowing boycotted business to sue for damages without demonstrating damages.

So, yeah. There you go, poor guy's just confused, thinks that the US is suddenly on the East Mediterranean.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Garfee
You make me sick. Unions act for their members and in this case the members are public servants, including police and fire brigade. If you don't want to support your police or fire brigage then they should they save your business from theft or burning?

Oh, I don't know.

How about because it's their job????

They are public servants first, before they are union members, and not the other way around.

For anyone that thinks otherwise, this is the exact reason for busting a union.

OK. They are not public servants first. They are employees with families and lives of their own.

They can be public servants second if you like, but if a government as an employer is failing it's duty of care to it's employees then they should be free to contact those who fund said government and ask for support.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Tomyj04

 

I think he believes that this country is actually Israel.

Israel seeks to make boycotts illegal including allowing boycotted business to sue for damages without demonstrating damages.

So, yeah. There you go, poor guy's just confused, thinks that the US is suddenly on the East Mediterranean.

edit on 13/3/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

Why not? I mean this is what all these money grubbing corporate/facists and all their crappy sheeple followers/supporters want: the US to be...either Isreal, China, Or India. This is quite clear for anyone who has eyes. I mean Ray Charles can see this is the Agenda, without busting unions this agenda can't survive. Thank God there are 100,000 awakened individuals in WI.

reply to post by centurion1211




You are entirely wrong. A boycott is nothing to do with "threatening" a business or demanding protection (money). How can you be so ill informed?

I suggest you study and learn for a while before you post. And when I say "study" I do not mean listen to right wing talk radio. Those people are not honest.

Union members are going to get what they deserve soon enough. Through their short sided irrational greed they are going to screw themselves out of any retirement, and for many jobs entirely. Instead of looking at the obvious facts the status quo cannot continue they would rather destroy their future rather than take any kind of pay or benefit cut.

Nearly every state is broke, the federal government is broke, overall debt has not dropped at all and is more than double historical levels, this cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The worst is yet to come, and its going to make what has happened so far look like a picnic.

Just because you can get away with threatening mass labor walkouts for wages and benefits no one in the private sector can obtain, and have it produce results does not make it right. That's bad enough but to feel absolutely entitled to those benefits obtained through the extortion takes a level of selfishness I simply cannot comprehend.

Everyone should watch Waiting for Superman, the movie clearly shows how unions by preventing teachers from being either rewarded or punished for their performance have destroyed our education system by giving teachers absolutely no motivation to do a good job. This does not work in today's America where it seems 80% of people only care about themselves. Our future has been devastated by these actions as education is the most important factor in our continued economic success.

I wish only the union members were the ones who pay for their actions, unfortunately everyone does.

reply to post by centurion1211


Who is the bigger thug?

The Big Business in America and their tiny % of the population that controls the lions share of the wealth?

Or the Unions struggling to protect the few remaining American workers who value some meaure of protection from the Big Business overlords?

Hmmmm

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
It's not theft, it's a user's fee.

Call it what you will, if it makes you feel better about yourself. But, taking something from someone, without their consent is "theft", pure and simple. Telling someone they can't take a job to provide for their families, unless they pay a "user fee" to a third party is gangster activity. Which is completely understandable, considering how the unions got their start.

As I've pointed out, I'm a member of a union - SEIU. I pay union dues. How much does it cost me, you may wonder? How much of my hard-earned dough is wrung out of me by these evil mafiosi jackals out for blood?

Seven dollars and fifteen cents a month. Translated into my time in the workplace, that's roughly half an hour of my labor. And I'm hardly the highest-paid member of the union where I work.

In exchange for half an hour of my labor a month, I get several guarantees. First off, I am entitled to a stable, posted wage dependent on position and experience, rather than employer whim. My bosses cannot force me to come in on my days off, nor can they force me to work short notice or overtime. If I do work short notice or overtime, my union gives me the guarantee that I get time and a half for doing so. Further, my union assures me that if I were to be laid off, I get either two week's notice prior, or two weeks' pay, plus accrued vacation time. My union guarantees that I cannot be fired without just cause. Further, thanks to my union, I know what my job is, and my boss cannot demand that I do the work of another job; in my specific case, I cook, and my manager could not demand that I perform maintenance. My union gives me the guarantee of a full-time day of eight hours plus one half hour lunch, and forty hours a week. In addition I get two paid fifteen-minute breaks in this eight hour period, thanks to my union. If, due to severe weather I am late for work (as was the case with the recent snowstorms in Washington) my union entitles me to work my full daily schedule, and protects me from pay deductions of disciplinary action due to that. If I wish to confer with my co-workers or union representatives about a situation in the workplace, in the workplace, I am free to do so. I am also free to access my personnel file kept by management at any time that I so please.

My union also recognizes six holidays - New Yea's Day, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day. If I work on one of these days, my union entitles me to double pay. My union also provides for employees in my department to confer with one another on who gets what holidays off. We are also able to transfer our holiday days, thanks to my union; if I were say, Jewish and ended up wit Christmas off, and I wanted Yom Kippur instead, I could talk with whoever's working Christmas, and fill in for them while they filled in for me on Yom Kippur, for instance. Speaking of holidays, my union also ensures that I get one "personal day" a year paid time, and that I can use my accrued vacation time at my discretion (with a month prior notice for scheduling.) if I were to lose a member of my immediate family, I get three bereavement days as well. if I were a woman, I would be entitled to maternity leave, with the guarantee that I could come back to my same position at the same pay. If I choose to attend a union function for an extended period - as a good friend of mine is currently doing in Olympia - I would also be entitled to return to work in the same position at the same pay. This is in addition to federal regulations guaranteeing the same if I were in the military or performing jury duty, of course.

But it's not all just vacations and the like. My union also stands behind me in disputes with management. When my boss brings out disciplinary action, I am entitled to have a union representative with me to insure that everything he does is legit, and that there is no coercion or intimidation. I can request the same if there is a scheduling conflict, or a payroll discrepancy. My union rep has my back and will help me out if I feel that my boss is being in any way abusive, duplicitous, or discriminatory - situations that HAVE come up with some of my co-workers. As a full-time employee I am entitled to vision, dental and medical coverage with a co-pay of no greater than 30% as well - if I were married or had children, they could be covered as well. And my union is currently in negotiation to gain retirement benefits.

Further, as a due-paying union member, I am entitled to full and equal access to the mechanisms of the union. I can participate in debates, I can join in votes, I can attend union meetings and functions, I in fact have full access, and the absolute right to make my voice heard within the union structure.

Also, blood-thirsty evil bastards that we are, we've forgone the right to strike, walk-out, or slowdown, because we work at a nursing home and service a vulnerable population. Truly, we are monsters.

I get this, for seven dollars and fifteen cents a month.

By comparison I also pay Blizzard Entertainment $14.99 a month so I can occasionally entertain myself by beating up digital orcs.

I think you can agree, I get a lot of bang for my buck out of this consensual agreement. And yes, it's consensual; no one forced me to work where I work. I could just as easily have decided to get a job at a non-union workplace.

Speaking of which, I have worked in a non-union establishment. Tillamook County Smoker, in Bay City, OR. They make Tillamook beef jerky. I found myself working "flexible" hours (start at 5 PM, go until "whenever" - I actually crawled out at 10 AM one time) and it seems, looking at an old paystub, that my hourly wages were, ahem, "miscalculated." There was no vacation, sick days resulted in termination, and disputes with management, from what I saw, resulted in shouting matches and threats to call the police. There were no health benefits, which considering we were shooting caustic fluids out of pressure washers and working in an environment full of raw and decaying meat was fairly amazing. There was a very nice retirement package, but since you could be fired for absolutely nothing, it was just pie in the sky.

So. Ask yourself. Given the choice between these two jobs, which would you take? I somehow think that you wouldn't mind consenting to $7.15 a month for those nice union protections, right?

And, as to the rest of your reply... If you believe using a harsh and demeaning tone bolsters your position, you are quite wrong. It only goes to more deeply ingrain my opinion of unions. You think you can always get your way, through bullying and strongarm tactics. Sorry pal, but I believe Wisconsin's legislature just disproved that and cut the legs out from under your beloved unions.

Well, considering that the Wisconsin Republican Party (it wasn't "the Legislature" by a long shot) just pushed this through via bullying and strongarm tactics, I'm... Not sure where you're going here.

Hmmm... "The Walking Fox"... Hoffa was last seen, in 1975, out front of the "Red Fox" restaurant...

Wow! He is alive! Hoffa is here on ATS!

edit on 13-3-2011 by WTFover because: Adjectives are your friends

Mom's gonna freak.