Palestinian Terror. Recent murder in Itamar of a family of 5

reply to post by bigyin


OK, I would like to address your points one by one

1) Obviously he wouldn't condemn it... he is considered more right-wing then Olmert was (even though they started out at the same party)

2) You claimed (if memory serves) that "a lot" or "many" were children... while the numbers vary, it is the assumption of the Israeli army that around 1,200 people in total were killed, with roughly 700 of them being combatants. As for the number of children among the rest of the 500 or so killed, I guess we will never know.

3) No, I am not OK with it. Actually, the army stopped using the white phosphorous after cast lead. In addition, you need to remember, that Hamas, being what it is, fired rockets, missiles etc from populated areas, and military code allows you to fire to areas where you are fired upon (check the fourth Geneva convention), basically, if we are enemies, it is expected of you to wear uniform so that my soldiers would know that you're a combatant and not a civilian, you are required to put your military bases away from civilian areas, and mark them as such etc... things that Hamas doesn't do (they actually put their weapons next to hospitals and masques...) this is all well-documented (even by them, in the last round, Hamas published videos of them firing from near a school - look it up)

4) I do not blame civilians... not directly at least. First, remember that Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians in the 2007 elections (I believe it was 2007), so, if you, as the leader of a people who elected you, start a war, and your people suffer, it's mostly on them... specifically since all Palestinians know what Hamas says about Israel. Second, some civilians were forcibly prohibited from leaving their homes by Hamas, in the hope that either 1) Israel would not attack, or 2) Israel would attack, there would be civilian deaths and Israel would be blamed. Also, I remind you again, that in addition to leaflets from the air, Israeli soldiers called by phone many of the residents urging them to leave before impending attacks.

5) Actually, there have been several of these, I know for sure about one soldier who went to jail for looting, and two other soldiers who were thrown out of the army for using a child to look in bags. I am not sure about other incidents - but I do know that there a couple still under investigation. I seem to remember a case of a soldier shooting a woman by mistake where that soldier was also punished, although I don't remember exactly what the punishment was, since the woman was shot during a fire-fight.

Take into account that Judge Goldstone claimed that his report is not accurate anymore, taking into account the steps that the Israeli army has taken.

Now, I can't make the same moral comparison between intentionally attacking civilians, where there is no military target there (i.e. Hamas), as opposed to the unintentional death of civilians (i.e. IDF). Both are regrettable, reprehensible and should be avoided... but you can't honestly say that unless Hamas provoked it, Israel would have done anything...

Originally posted by ender_shadow
reply to post by bigyin

 

but you can't honestly say that unless Hamas provoked it, Israel would have done anything...

Thank you for a reasoned and civilised response.

I don't agree with your assessments, but thats ok.

The last phrase I've quoted because it says a lot. The thing is Cast Lead was started by Israel because it claimed Hamas were raining rockets on Israel. However it is not widely known that Hammas had agreed a cease fire for a long period before and that cease fire was broken by Israel when it assassinated some Hammas leaders in Gaza. So to say that Hammas started the shooting is entirely wrong. It was Israel that restarted the conflict for reasons they will know best, but whatever the reason was it was for Israel's benifit and not Palestinians.

This thread was about the Itamar murder of almost an intire family......not Operation Cast Lead or Hamas

now that the "palestinian" culprits have been found......
this thread suddenly goes cold and almost no one say one single word to condem these "palestinian" murderers.....but if the shoe was on the other foot almost all of you would go in to a complete psychotic frenzy!

You all showed yourselves up for what you really are

Originally posted by bluemirage5
This thread was about the Itamar murder of almost an intire family......not Operation Cast Lead or Hamas

now that the "palestinian" culprits have been found......
this thread suddenly goes cold and almost no one say one single word to condem these "palestinian" murderers.....

Wrong.

Too bad Israel doesn't have the death penalty!

I, as I'm sure everyone will be glad that the murderers have been identified

I am so glad they have caught these scumbags!

Why are you lying? Everyone condemned these murders from day one and still condemns them.

reply to post by Nammu


Ok,since this is open season:

The "palestinian" wall of LIES:

youtu.be...

The "palestinian" wall of LIES at Penn State University:

youtu.be...

reply to post by bigyin


I'm all for a civilized discussion

When dealing with Cast Lead (which is not the topic of the thread), I think you are confusing some incidents, which is easy to do, since there are so many of them.

I do not recall Israel killing any Hamas leaders before Cast Lead, I do remember however a growing number of rocket attacks in the two weeks before the "Tahadia" ended despite public pleading by Olmert (which I personally thought made him look weak to the other side) to "please stop shooting at us or else..."

If you are referring to the latest round, yes, you can claim that Israel "Started" it by killing 2 or 3 Hamas big-shots, but the reason was that Israel had credible intelligence that they were planning a terrorist operation during the Passover holiday (if memory serves, either abducting or killing tourists in Sinai).

Let me ask you this, if I have credible intel on someone planning an attack, shouldn't I prevent it? even if I risk ending a quiet? since if the attack does happen, and people do get hurt, I will have to react then...

Also, even though Hamas fired rockets into Israel again, Israel didn't respond in force until they fired and specifically targeted the schoolbus... (murdering that 16 year old boy), since they "crossed the line" Israel was forced to respond more forcibly then it did up until that time (by bombing the usual tunnels etc).

But the "who started it" argument is problematic regardless of the side you look at, since you can always find an excuse to attack... I do hold to my belief that if I know you're planning to attack me, and you have reached a certain point that I am compelled to act, I must do so, in order to fulfill my duty to protect my citizens...

I hope this makes it clearer for you to see how it looks from the "other" side...

dontreally don't you know anything?

It isn't terrorism if it's resistance against the Zionist occupiers.

Tsk tsk.