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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by KilrathiLG
reply to post by matadoor
 


so if i understand what you said correctly if the roof hadent blown or allready blown it would have been alot worse correct? how sure are we that the roof exploding was from the hydrogen and not from charges or some kind on the roof because they saw this coming?what ever happend to the photos from god only knows what page of this thread that were talking about suposded boddies on the roof could they have set hte charges then succum to the raidiation or are we thinking it was just the hydrogen alone that by chance did this?


What we are saying, is that if the top of the RPV did in fact blow off, it did so most likely as a result of the SFP pool igniting, destroying itself and all around it in the process and possibly because of a small portion of leaked fuel to react with the water, with only enough going critical to blow off the lid.

If you use the same logic as above, a contained RPV vessel sustaining prompt criticality would have caused an explosion that would be measured in megatons. Recall the firecracker example above.

They should have vented the hydrogen from the building. Had they done this, the blob in the SFP would never had the "spark" needed to achieve prompt criticality.




posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by mrbillshow Until we know the exact circumstances we cannot make any kind of reasonable determination as to the cause, but that doesn't stop people on this thread from posting them and implying they are due to minute jet stream radiation from Fuku.


MB, arent you doing what you don't like others to do. How do you know the pulses are only minute. Do you have access to the monitoring stations set up by government agencies like EPA, or DOIs stuff on Trinidad Head, which aren't even recording, or at least releasing data. Personally I think that any toxicity exerted on the human race is added to all the other toxic stuff we are exposed to and carry a body burden of. The immune system is like a big bucket and perturbations are a constant drip drip drip. At some point the bucket hits full, the immune system cant handle the situation and disease ensues.

But I agree that a) we shouldnt infer that something like infant mortality far from Japan is immediately associated with Fukushima. And b) this thread is a discussion of Fukushimas woes due to the natural EQ and tsunami. A discussion of manmade or outside causes for Fukushima (HAARP, Mosad, reptilians) should be a different thread.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by Purplechive

Not good at all..and wind blowing it south...


I cant remember PC, are you in Japan. If so, the wind charts Ive been following show the current Fukushima emissions heading NE, out to sea, towards the Aleutians and westcoast US, which has been the predominant flow since early March, with fluctuations. Japan has been largely spared I believe, at least considering what has been emitted. What it all means though I dont know.

Concerning the smoke under the catwalk, when i first saw the TEPCO cam, I thought the same thing. Now I think its artifacts. But if it is a vapor release from underground I wouldnt be shocked. In fact Im kinda expecting it. Thats what one of my new forming theories is about. The other is like you suggested, dealing with the mechanics of attraction, but Im close to scrapping that one. Too much learning needed.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by SFA437
Not sure if the poolium could have gone off with all the extra junk melted into it- anyone got input on that?


It has been theorized on other forums that if the outer surface of the corium, which, like lava, will harden on the outside when it hits cooler temps and or water, could form a barrier to neutron release, causing the free neutrons to bounce around inside the corium mass and theoretically produce a reaction. But its all over my head so no commentary. In fact, Im not really sure about what I just wrote, so Ill leave it to others.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 07:46 PM
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And Another One Bites the Dust...




The ministry said one of the workers -- part of the maintenance staff at the plant -- is suspected of having been exposed to 335 millisieverts.



The checks came after TEPCO found 3 additional workers had been exposed to radiation beyond the legal limit. Five more workers are suspected of having received doses of radiation above the limit.


www3.nhk.or.jp...



- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor
When we are looking at the "blob" at the bottom of the SFP, we need to (in my opinion) cease to think about this mass as a "reactor" and instead look at it as a blob of fission materials. As such, let's look at the different ways to build a nuke bomb.

From here: en.wikipedia.org...-type_weapon

Nuclear weapon designs are physical, chemical, and engineering arrangements that cause the physics package[1] of a nuclear weapon to detonate. There are three basic design types. In all three, the explosive energy of deployed devices has been derived primarily from nuclear fission, not fusion.

Pure fission weapons were the first nuclear weapons built and have so far been the only type ever used in warfare. The active material is fissile uranium (U-235) or plutonium (Pu-239), explosively assembled into a chain-reacting critical mass by one of two methods:

Gun assembly: one piece of fissile uranium is fired at a fissile uranium target at the end of the weapon, similar to firing a bullet down a gun barrel, achieving critical mass when combined.

Implosion: a fissile mass of either material (U-235, Pu-239, or a combination) is surrounded by high explosives that compress the mass, resulting in criticality.

The implosion method can use either uranium or plutonium as fuel.

Edit - what if it has both?

The gun method only uses uranium. Plutonium is considered impractical for the gun method because of early triggering due to Pu-240 contamination and due to its time constant for prompt critical fission being much shorter than that of U-235.


Thanks Matador for your thoughts on this. It did get me thinking and wondering.

Nuclear weapons, from what I understand, have much higher concentration of fissile materials than spent fuel which is:
wiki


When 3% enriched LEU fuel is used, the spent fuel typically consists of roughly 1% U-235, 95% U-238, 1% plutonium and 3% fission products.

With this low concentration would detonation be possible? Would the force of the hydrogen be enough to compress tons of spent fuel together in enough mass to create this kind of 'prompt' criticality?
Hummm, let's consider something...
Now back in the thread chr0naut suggested that #3 had likely been exceeding it's design standards being run "overclocked" in a breeding configuration...

Originally posted by chr0naut
Fukushima is one of the largest reactors in the world.

The world has, for some time, been running out of Uranium worth processing.

The boiling water reactors were originally designed to 'burn' low enriched uranium.

The reactors were converted to mixed oxide fuel (MOX) which produces more energy but in a boiling water plant is more dangerous & critical.

It is also possible that the plant was using some rods of highly enriched uranium and/or was converted from a 'burner' reactor to a 'breeder' reactor.

Breeder reactors give even more output and also create highly enriched byproducts (mainly Plutonium). This is both weapons grade and can be re-burnt later, giving even more energy from the same amount of fuel.

The problem is that running a reactor like this is skirting the edge of overheat. It can be managed but it requires constant monitoring and that nothing should go wrong as it can 'runaway' very rapidly.

If the reactor was operating according to its design constraints, inserting all the control rods should have shut it down and cooling would begin almost immediately. The company confirmed that the rods had inserted automatically when the quake struck. There should only have been an issue with leftover heat which still needed to be extracted from the inactive pile and which could cause boiling off of the water if the coolant system failed.

If the coolant failed and the water boiled off, the control rods should still have been sufficient to prevent the reactor from restarting, even though the insulation/damping of the water was removed from the picture.

Instead, we have seen rising temperatures. Therefore the control rods are insufficient to damp down the reactor and the reactors are still running, so the reactors were likely operating in a 'breeding' configuration and we are being lied to.

If the melted rods pool, and the reactor was running in a breeding configuration, the pool can go critical or even supercritical. This means that they could detonate!

But he is talking about the reactor and we're talking about the SFP....

from the same Wiki as above:


One alternative to this low-enriched uranium (LEU) fuel are Mixed Oxide (MOX) fuels produced by blending plutonium with natural or depleted uranium, and these fuels provide an avenue to utilize surplus weapons-grade plutonium. Another type of MOX fuel involves mixing LEU with thorium, which generates the fissile isotope U-233. Both plutonium and U-233 are produced from the absorption of neutrons by irradiating fertile materials in a reactor, in particular the common uranium isotope U-238 and thorium, respectively, and can be separated from spent uranium and thorium fuels in reprocessing plants.

Now, I'm just winging it here.... but #3 had only recently been loaded with MOX (Sept/Oct) so there should not have been any MOX in the SPR. However, this fuel seems to me to be much more possible to produce a detonation than any amount of spent fuel, even given a hydrogen catalyst. This detonation would happen inside the RPV which I would think would be a far better vessel for containing, compressing and focusing the blast than the rather large flat-bottomed spent fuel pool.
Wiki


Thermonuclear bombs work by using the energy of a fission bomb to compress and heat fusion fuel. In the Teller-Ulam design, which accounts for all multi-megaton yield hydrogen bombs, this is accomplished by placing a fission bomb and fusion fuel (tritium, deuterium, or lithium deuteride) in proximity within a special, radiation-reflecting container. When the fission bomb is detonated, gamma and X-rays emitted first compress the fusion fuel, then heat it to thermonuclear temperatures. The ensuing fusion reaction creates enormous numbers of high-speed neutrons, which can then induce fission in materials not normally prone to it, such as depleted uranium. Each of these components is known as a "stage", with the fission bomb as the "primary" and the fusion capsule as the "secondary". In large hydrogen bombs, about half of the yield, and much of the resulting nuclear fallout, comes from the final fissioning of depleted uranium.[8] By chaining together numerous stages with increasing amounts of fusion fuel, thermonuclear weapons can be made to an almost arbitrary yield; the largest ever detonated (the Tsar Bomba of the USSR) released an energy equivalent of over 50 million tons (50 megatons) of TNT. Most thermonuclear weapons are considerably smaller than this, due to practical constraints arising from the space and weight requirements of missile warheads.

Warheads obviously contain much more highly enriched fuel and utilize stages and other designs to increase the yield. Obviously the detonation was much smaller but would this have been a factor?



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


I think they key to matadoor's theory is that the impurities boiled off like in the refining of steel. There's also a difference in weight between the various other components of the SFR assemblies and the racks which would stratify within the corium if it was crusted over and in a stable blob. I'd even go so far as to say that internal heat currents might have been slowed and/or stopped due to the cooling effects of continuous water pumping.

It does make sense to me and satisfies Occam's Razor IMO. I do not think that the SFR pool was the massive linear explosion but that the SFR detonation caused the RPV failure a this point.

On a side note there's already large areas of northern Honshu with rad levels 1000x normal and climbing outside the exclusion zone. Hotspots are popping up all over the place and worsening over the past 10 days or so, the irradiation of the Pacific is about to go into overdrive, infant mortality is spiking in the US, 4 reactors are threatened with flooding in the midwest with the possibility of station blackouts but not a peep on the MSM...

Hate saying it but waaaaaaaaay back over 3 months ago I was telling my friends and family to get some KI or KI03 and Prussian Blue. The only thing I'm going to add to that is that it is good thing the MSM have been obedient little minions and ignored this because it means you can still get some reasonable cheap.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by zworld

Originally posted by SFA437
Not sure if the poolium could have gone off with all the extra junk melted into it- anyone got input on that?


It has been theorized on other forums that if the outer surface of the corium, which, like lava, will harden on the outside when it hits cooler temps and or water, could form a barrier to neutron release, causing the free neutrons to bounce around inside the corium mass and theoretically produce a reaction. But its all over my head so no commentary. In fact, Im not really sure about what I just wrote, so Ill leave it to others.


LINKS?

this is the internet



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor

Originally posted by KilrathiLG
reply to post by matadoor
 


so if i understand what you said correctly if the roof hadent blown or allready blown it would have been alot worse correct? how sure are we that the roof exploding was from the hydrogen and not from charges or some kind on the roof because they saw this coming?what ever happend to the photos from god only knows what page of this thread that were talking about suposded boddies on the roof could they have set hte charges then succum to the raidiation or are we thinking it was just the hydrogen alone that by chance did this?


What we are saying, is that if the top of the RPV did in fact blow off, it did so most likely as a result of the SFP pool igniting, destroying itself and all around it in the process and possibly because of a small portion of leaked fuel to react with the water, with only enough going critical to blow off the lid.

If you use the same logic as above, a contained RPV vessel sustaining prompt criticality would have caused an explosion that would be measured in megatons. Recall the firecracker example above.

They should have vented the hydrogen from the building. Had they done this, the blob in the SFP would never had the "spark" needed to achieve prompt criticality.


we as in the thread?

(edit TO WERT: spent , and fuel-byproducts make cheap bombs and cheaper dirty bombs, theoretical speaking)
edit on 20-6-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-6-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by SFA437
 





satisfies Occam's Razor IMO


damnably that's not how radioactive materials tend to interact-act. they tend to have different oxide , dioxides and hydrates (very important in air) mechanical physics to be taught as separate from chemistry , but now they know better. And interestingly the thermal capacities seem to have MASSIVELY important interactions at certain "chemical ranges' , not saying it's a whole different science like something called nuclear chemistry or anything, but something to ADD IMO



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 02:15 AM
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There couldn't have been a better series of posts as a segue into a promise I made in this post unless I had written them myself. I ran into an assessment by Caltech quite come time ago and I am almost certian I linked it in this thread, on the off chance I have not, here it is:

LINK ********Direct link to 10 MB .pdf*********

Here is some of what can be found in the document linked above:



Since we now had 3 melt-throughs(and here I thought a meltdown was bad) admitted, we know for a fact that there has been ongoing recriticality in at least three locations; R1, R2, and R4, I think R3's innards have been scattered to the winds.



"Ballooning and relocation of fuel" and "Rupture of cladding-->releasing (fuel pellet) FP gases and fuel" are pretty clear and absolute statements that tell us that the Elvis has indeed left the building.



2700c?!?! Holy smokes that's HOT! So not only do we have hydrogen being produced, but it is also creating heat concurrently with the hydrogen/nuclear fuel gas. All of that hydrogen has to go somewhere:



Fill 'er up.



"Damage to turbine building roof may be associated with building fragments or equipment hurled out of refueling bay" sounds quite a bit like what Silverlok has been saying.

"Concrete beams and panels below refueling deck damaged" tells me that the spent fuel pool, dryer seperater storage pool, and the skimmer tank are no longer coherent structures.

Let's look closer at the explosion event:



I have to admit that some of this is a bit beyond me, but I hope SFA may be able to help with some of the more technical portions of this, but I can say that since we are likely looking at several discrete yet nearly simultaneous explosive events, more data can only help bring us closer to a better understanding of what has transpired.

If for nothing else, then for whatever contribution we may give to the world through this tiny little bit of cyberspace.

Looking at this design doc:


source

that shows the General Arrangement of the reactor buildings, we see the reactor centered long ways and offset toward the turbine building short ways.

Add that to this:



The yellow rectangle indicating the building that the torus runs into, while the red cericle indicates the approximate position of the reactor. If you look to the left of the reactor building on the ground you will see a lot of debris that is consistent with the roof girders.

This tells me that when the roof settled down it also slumped in that direction as well as falling down. That would account for the hole we are seeing lined up to the left ot where I have indicated the location of the reactor to be.

Looking finally at this image:



If we have that blob of melted corium hitting water in the bottom of the concrete basemat that was present due to damage in the structure very shortly after the hydrogen does its Deflagration to Detonation Transition (as mentioned in the technical image I posted) the concrete plug placed atop the reactor well would have been pulverized by the shock-wave releasing yet more pressurized hydrogen.

Corium+water+hydrogen DDT=500m tall column of radioactive cloud of death.

What do y'all think?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by Silverlok

(edit TO WERT: spent , and fuel-byproducts make cheap bombs and cheaper dirty bombs, theoretical speaking)
edit on 20-6-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-6-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)

It was my understanding that a dirty bomb is not a nuclear explosion or any kind of controlled fission reaction in the fuel, but a conventional explosion designed to disperse radioactive materials. Spent fuel being highly radioactive would be an effective radiological agent, but not for it's fissioning capabilities.
NRC fact sheet on dirty bombs


A “dirty bomb” is one type of a “radiological dispersal device” (RDD) that combines a conventional explosive, such as dynamite, with radioactive material that may disperse when the device explodes. It is not the same as a nuclear weapon. If there are casualties, they will be caused by the initial blast of the conventional explosive. The radioactive particles that are scattered as a result of the explosion cause the "dirty" part. The explosives in such a bomb would still be more dangerous than the radioactive material.

Part of the reason, I understood, that it couldn't be used in bombs was it's high amounts of Pu-238 and Pu-240 & 242 and not enough of Pu-239 at high enough purity (ie: reactor grade, not weapons grade), and Pu-240. 240 being notorious hard to control and not stable enough with it's extra neutron. A bomb designer of any sort would need to control this reaction otherwise their would be premature detonation - even if this was how dirty bombs worked. Because of the high level of Pu-241 decaying to Am-241 spent fuel is highly radioactive and once particularized would spread around in the locale of the bomb.

What I am getting at is the initial hydrogen explosion, yes. Blowing the rods all over the place... yes (and we saw evidence that was suggestive of this). The SFR's clumping together forming a mass going critical and 'blowing up' no, I don't see it. The pressurized RPV loaded with very hot mass of MOX was more likely to do that (getting set off by hydrogen blast). Matador is saying hydrogen boom, SFP booms and then blows lid off reactor... mass falls through bottom of reactor to containment floor. I defer to you nuke and explosive experts after all, just exploring.
edit on 21-6-2011 by Wertwog because: Unicorns are sad moonbats get all the attention.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by SFA437
reply to post by Wertwog
 


I think they key to matadoor's theory is that the impurities boiled off like in the refining of steel. There's also a difference in weight between the various other components of the SFR assemblies and the racks which would stratify within the corium if it was crusted over and in a stable blob. I'd even go so far as to say that internal heat currents might have been slowed and/or stopped due to the cooling effects of continuous water pumping.

It does make sense to me and satisfies Occam's Razor IMO. I do not think that the SFR pool was the massive linear explosion but that the SFR detonation caused the RPV failure a this point.

This assumes we have a mass. There was some evidence that the rods were ejected from the pool by the hydrogen blast, but even, for the sake of exploration, lets assume we have a blob of SFR's of significant enough size. From what I understand once we have a corium blob and a crust forms the outside can be cooled, a bit, but you can't get into it cool it. I think you're both right many elements/metals would go to the outside of the blob but the mass itself is still going to be a mix of uranium and plutonium (238,239,240,241,242) and a mess of other elements that I don't know (suspect not) if they would react like a bomb even under a compression from the hydrogen blast. It's not localized enough or powerful enough. Depending on the geometry at the time of the corium, I just don't think hydrogen blast would have been directed with enough force to penetrate or even compress the mass enough and cause a 'quick/prompt' criticality. Most likely I can see the blast moving across the surface of the blob (if there was one), and remember the flat bottomed floor of the pool where the corium would likely be resting (conjecture). If the corium had a crust, it is quite hard, nothing much we have can penetrate it. But, meh, you guys are the experts, I'm just the peanut gallery


BTW very sad about the increasing levels, glad you told your fam/friends to stock up. Tincture of Idoine works as well (liquid) sold at most pharmacies as an old-school disinfectant.
edit on 21-6-2011 by Wertwog because: Unicorns are sad moonbats get all the attention.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 06:04 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:27 AM
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Unit 4 Spewing - 06/21/11...sigh...





Just how much radiation coming out with this steam/smoke night after night after night...

God help us all.

- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by Purplechive
 




Well looks like Mothra is back. lol



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Silverlok


A few days ago on the Physics Forum. But like I said, it was just someone thinking out loud, and I have no idea if its possible. What do you think?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by Purplechive

Unit 4 Spewing - 06/21/11...sigh...



Thats a good one to show deniers, ie the difference between smoke/steam and fog.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Silverlok
 

Silverlok, speaking of thermals, any luck finding old thermal imagery. Do you still have the link?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 10:26 AM
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Before getting back on the road, Id like to share a positive to all this, since there seems to be so few. Ive run into quite a few people in out of the way places that are talking about Fukushima, exploring the issues, and trying to find answers. Including one old timer Vietnam vet turned farmer who said he's learned alot of stuff from this website and the PF forums, though he did say that he found the negativity here a bit distracting. But then he followed that by talking my head off about how dangerous the situation was. I had to laugh.



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