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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 938.htm
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posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by Silverlok
 




Unless perhaps the practice of weapons grade refining at commercial powerplants is more routine than we might know ( be nice for people to pay for power that was also refining nukes sure would cut down on the cost )


Silverlok:

"Request to Export up to 140 Kilograms of Weapons-Grade Plutonium. Oxide (PuO2) to Cogema's Cadarache and Melox Facilities in France"

pbadupws.nrc.gov...

And Markey's concern:

pbadupws.nrc.gov...


A lot to wade through...need help.

Do the google search thing: (space out of http)

site:ht tp://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ weapons grade export

And France again...and again...and again...

- Purple Chive





edit on 13-6-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by zworld
 





Can these radioactive particles and corium blobs, in sufficient quantity from all sources, interact to create one monster. One big fissiling mass, that can do what? Wiki says this about the fission process, emphasis mine;


Hi z,

Sad to read your heartfelt post, I share similar fears, and concerns about the apparent unfolding of what was until March 11-18th apparently an unimaginable scenario, at least in the realms of most of the nuclear industry/experts.

I have been meaning to post this a while, I found this site map:



from here link to source

It leaves me a little concerned about the relative proximity of the Common Spent Fuel Pool (s - there are in fact two pools/buildings interconnected there from reading TEPCO docs somewhere else...) to well all four reactors/SFPs but especially #s 3 & 4, and the hot-hot-hot faults/drains/ditches/pools...

Is this map correct, or has anyone seen/recollects plans that locate the CSFPs elsewhere?

I'm just keeping an eye on it because some of the latest photos I've seen there is a building there that looks pretty messed up by the existing blasts/tsunami, and also bearing in mind any further blasts/damage to the site. I'll try to find the photos...



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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METI tried to gain influence over Fukushima panel
BY SHINJI MURAMATSU STAFF WRITER 2011/06/12





A push by bureaucrats associated with the nuclear industry to increase their influence over the government-appointed panel investigating the accident at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant was rebuffed by Prime Minister Naoto Kan.



The decision by Kan to reject the National Policy Unit proposal may only be a temporary setback for METI.

In the rush to establish the panel, its legal status was left ambiguous. No legislation passed to establish it as an independent body.

That leaves open the possibility of METI officials renewing their push for control of the panel. With Kan expected to step down in the near future, the energy mandarins may still have their way.


Another sign that all is well and under complete control, of course it's only natural that there might be some tensions in a partnership after such an event, or at least that's probably what our UK coallition government might say?



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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Aiken, SC Facility to convert weapons grade plutonium to MOX



This was originally designated "Official Use Only - Security Related Information" all 568 pages...

July 2010
pbadupws.nrc.gov...

Page 64 of this doc:
pbadupws.nrc.gov...

And what a coincidence...


The world's largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government's $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.


came from Aiken county, SC....
chronicle.augusta.com...

And AREVA again...

January 18, 2011
pbadupws.nrc.gov...

I have to get a life...
- Purple Chive
edit on 13-6-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by Wertwog
reply to post by zworld
 


zworld, you're finally catching up to where many of us were a month or two ago, and I feel for you. There have been many folks here talking about the feelings your having, feel free, we all pretty much feel the same way. TRN made a post about a month and a half ago about how the corium masses will "breathe" (the huffing and puffing). I will try to dig it up for you. You'll note that much of what we are seeing unfold now was predicted by him early on on this thread hence our references to him over and over again. Silver, okiecowboy, SFA and some others words have also come true, sadly, since none of us want this and would prefer to go about our lives.


Its not just that Wertwog. I have been freaked from day one at the potential of Fukushima from reading here and other forums and one reason I decided to finally start posting somewhere was because people here allowed themselves to think outside the box. But I had no idea how mindboggling outside the box was. Nuclear has never been on my schedule. Something inside me just didn't get it. But now that I see the potential for one massive instantaneous release from Fukushima, I agree with those who said in the beginning that you could have one big chain reaction under the right conditions.

What I get from all of it at this point is that neutrons shoot out from the source, and bounce around until they are absorbed, bouncing off larger atoms. Some go back to the source starting a limited reaction. If the outer surface is like corium, some may never leave the source, bouncing around inside.

And now to raise the questions troubling me.

1) If enough uranium is present in a given area, can a prompt criticality occur, as Arnie has suggested at unit 3, or supercritical event, even if the other source is some distance away. In other words, could the SFP in 4 collapsing and going prompt critical set off the SFP in 3?

2) If yes, can this happen throughout the plant in an even larger scale?

3) And can fog or rain increase neutron bounce as suggested above?

Correct me if wrong (on second thought dont, I hate that sh&%)
there are thousands of TONS of uranium in the reactors or SFPs combined. So one goes critical, megatrillions of neutrons bouncing all over the place on a foggy day, hitting enough other fuel to start reactions and explosions that release more source for the neutron dance and then boom. Im beginning to understand why TEPCO withheld info from the beginning.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by curioustype
 


Sorry, to bang on about this, and to be replying to myself, but I just wanted to get this off my chest:

If this map IS correct and the CSFPs ARE located essentially directly opposite R#4/and it's SFP/Drying pool, just across (doesn't look too far to me) that service road that runs N/S on the inland side of all the reactors...I just want to point out the following, and if you want to compare the map you could use this aerial photo here which appears to show the site AFTER Rs3/4 etc blew their tops (I'm afraid it's approx. 180 degrees from the map).

Look at the photo, so just opposite R4 inland is the CFSPs (appears as two overlapping rectangles or a rectangle over a square with two small round tanks between them and R4?), with their approx. 5,000 or so fuel rods, and R4 with it's approx. 1,500 or whatever it was - quite a few (3-550?) of which are/were 'in use'/service but out of the reactor.

Now if you look carefully at this and other photos, this is what I see,

1. It appears to be at essentially the same elevation as the other main buidlings known/seen to have been swamped by the Tsunami.

2. This and other (ground level photos) indicate a collection of debris, of the sort seen elsewhere that was dropped at the bow of the tsunami as it hit it's maximum reach and retreated (I see dislodged vehicles and/or ship type/scale containers) pushed up against what I think is a fence at the back of the CSFPs on the inland/W side. i.e. the flood waters appear to have at least surrounded the building, and possibly inundated it, and/or it's drains.

3. It appears well within the type of proximity of the other reactors, to seem likely it is interconnected/shares drainage and sub-terrainian service shafts with them, and given it's ground floor level being similar elevation (i.e. it's not up a bank or on a mound) what possibility may there be for existing or future exchanges of 'hot' effluents?

4.It's not very clear from this photo, but given the proximity of it to R4/R3, and what we know of the existing blasts, what do we know of what it may have sustained in those blasts? Has the building been opened up in any way (which may expose it to elevated internal radiation levels from the fallout/bombardment of the other buildings presumably?). How may that affect it's functioning?

5. Look at the proximity of the bank/earthworks to the W/back of the building, a little closer than R4. Note they appear bare soil/rock at a steep angle and appear to rise above the building. Would you want all that fuel there for any length of time given what we know about the massive EQ, movement, on-site faults (I posted TEPCOs latest on that about 100 pages ago I think?) propensity for liquefaction and landslides that that event (and future ones) are now known to trigger?

I know, TEPCO say it's all fine there now they hooked it up with a new power extension, and there must be strong arguments to leave it all alone, but I can't help wondering whether, given what's brewing in the other buildings, it may be worth shifting as much of that out as possible, somehow, before things escalate?

I mean, what if R4 did collapse and the cherry and spent fuel is aggrevated in that? (I know, it may already have gone up)

There, said it.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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Shaw AREVA MOX Services...Order Imposing Procedures for Access to Sensitive Unclassified Non-Safeguards Information April, 22 2011



Ok...lawyers and bureaucrats on this thread...please interpret...

www.federalregister.gov... otice-of

Appreciative!

- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by zworld
 




1) If enough uranium is present in a given area, can a prompt criticality occur, as Arnie has suggested at unit 3, or supercritical event, even if the other source is some distance away. In other words, could the SFP in 4 collapsing and going prompt critical set off the SFP in 3?


Hi z, indeed, even if we saw one of those 3 main hotspots escalate, or simply carry on as is for too long, what knock on effects/risks for all 8 fuel locations at the site, I hope you found my last post connects somewhat with your concerns. As you say, it's all an experiment, nobody really knows what lies ahead, or so it would seem...

Perhaps we could attract some 'experts' in for their opinions?



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 06:24 PM
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Ok apparently it's not permitted to post their content without permission, but if you were to type into Google:

fukushima, hitachi, lithuania, filetype:pdf,

you may find you have yourselves an impressive read at or near the top of the list, which outlines just how well respected the Japanese nuclear industry apparently is right now, and how they haven't let little things like Fukushima deter them [business 'xyz'*] from apparently becoming the 1st parties on the planet to enter into negotiations for bidding on a new nuclear power plant (NPP) construction since the incident...hmmmm?

Is it only me that find's it stunning that that was posted within 24hrs of this news:

Bloomberg

Hitachi, GE Submit Plan to Dismantle Fukushima Nuclear Plant

April 13, 2011, 12:23 AM EDT By Mariko Yasu and Maki Shiraki




April 13 (Bloomberg) -- Hitachi Ltd. and General Electric Co. submitted a plan to dismantle the crippled Fukushima Dai- Ichi plant they helped build as Japanese engineers battle to contain the worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl.

The proposal, which also involves Exelon Corp. and Bechtel Corp., was submitted April 8, said Yuichi Izumisawa, a Tokyo- based spokesman at Hitachi, Japan’s second-largest maker of nuclear reactors. He declined to specify details of the plan.

The Hitachi-led proposal will vie against plans from groups led by Toshiba Corp. and Areva SA as Tokyo Electric Power Co. begins preparing to clean up a nuclear disaster that’s led to the evacuation of hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. Decommissioning the reactors may take three decades and cost more than 1 trillion yen ($12 billion) to complete, engineers and analysts say.



Lithuania has google and newspapers right?
edit on 13-6-2011 by curioustype because: *added text to clarify I don't mean them:Japan, but them: business

edit on 13-6-2011 by curioustype because: Removed typo



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by curioustype
reply to post by zworld
 




1) If enough uranium is present in a given area, can a prompt criticality occur, as Arnie has suggested at unit 3, or supercritical event, even if the other source is some distance away. In other words, could the SFP in 4 collapsing and going prompt critical set off the SFP in 3?


Hi z, indeed, even if we saw one of those 3 main hotspots escalate, or simply carry on as is for too long, what knock on effects/risks for all 8 fuel locations at the site, I hope you found my last post connects somewhat with your concerns. As you say, it's all an experiment, nobody really knows what lies ahead, or so it would seem...

Perhaps we could attract some 'experts' in for their opinions?


Yes CT, very much it did. And no, I didnt realize the CSFP was that close. Not sure how I missed it before. For whatever the intelligent reasoning, I think I assumed it was near the back and never looked into it. Instead it ends up right next to the most dangerous spot in the plant. Yeah, add that to the equation if 4 falls.

PF forum is talking about the potential for the corium blobs to maybe go recritical, (back to the spikes in #1 rads and breathing) but if memory serves, spent fuel can gain recriticality easier (but cant find where I saw that, dont quote it).

How about a class project. I know Im one of the newer kids on the block but I love doing this kind of stuff, so if anyone feels like humoring me. Lets put together a list of requests and a list of questions to be submitted to TEPCO and METI. Things that can be done with existing knowledge and technology for requests. The questions are whatever needs to be known to identify and understand problems, and help remedy the situation or improve conditions. I get to be first
Cut and paste;

REQUESTS:

1) Please remove all spent fuel from the common spent fuel pool immediately. This can be done and the need is overwhelming. Send in the marines if you have to (sorry CT, it should have belonged to you but I couldnt help myself)



QUESTIONS:

1) What is in the full radionuclide content of the steam/smoke/vapor currently emitting from units 1, 2, 3 and 4.


Next.
edit on 13-6-2011 by zworld because: Havent changed



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:12 PM
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Going through TRN's posts and found this on pg649, thought it may be of interest to you zworld.


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Wouldn't u-235 be lighter than 238 thus less radioactive?

It is lighter (which is why centrifuges work for enrichment), but it is the stability (or lack of it) in the nucleus that makes an element radioactive, not just its weight. For every element, there is a certain size that forms the most stable nucleus. For most elements, this size means the atom is completely stable, but as the nucleus gets larger (238 parts for U-238), the interactions become more complex. Larger nuclei have a greater chance of being radioactive, but there is much more than just the atomic weight that goes into it.

That is why iodine-131 is reactive, but iodine-127 is stable. The nucleus tends to hold together better when it has 53 protons and 74 neutrons. Add 4 more neutrons into the mix, and it becomes very unstable and decays into xenon-131 (one of the neutrons becomes a proton).


BTW the french have been using thorium at 232 which is safer and recyclable

I have heard a little about that, and thorium may prove to be a better fuel than uranium. I really need to read up on it before I comment too much though.


Only problem is they are decaying out in the open rather than deep in earth and since they are enriched the decay process is more lethal.

Ironically, it seems the best thing TEPCO could come up with was to let it back into the earth. I am pretty sure that all three corium deposits are sitting inside bedrock right now.

But yeah, the enrichment causes it to react faster than it would if left alone, and thus produce more energy faster. That is the only way to efficiently use any similar resource. Think about gasoline... it is a concentration from crude oil. The gasoline isn't altered in any way, it is just separated out in the refinement process. But try filling your car tank with crude oil (actually, no, don't, please) and see how far you get.

All energy methods use concentration. That's the big problem with solar: it is almost impossible to concentrate it.


With all due respect I don't think anyone is interested in the fuel rods continuing to be used for electricity production unless they can be contained and evaluated first, correct?

Ummm... I think you missed my point...

The thing that makes the fuel rods unsuitable for electrical production is the lack of concentration of the U-235 that is in them. That's the point I was making. It's not that we want to reuse the rods, but that we can't reuse them in their present condition.

it would be wonderful if we could, as that would be better than having to let them burn out in a nuclear storage facility somewhere.


I think the issue is that there is a leak in the wall casings thus all the boron and/or water keeps sipping into the ground, thus polluting the underground water reservior, the oceans, and the fuel rods continue to be exposed.

The issue is that the zircaloy cladding (the 'casings') melted into liquid pools along with the fuel. Once the fuel rods become corium, they are useless for anything other than polluting the environment and we have no way to stop them from reacting. Those three balls of corium are still putting out heat and radiation, even though they are sitting inside bedrock, and there is no known power on the planet that can stop them as long as they are in one big blob. A reactor uses rods that absorb the neutrons (control rods) sitting in between the fuel rods to control the reaction. That won't work when the whole mess melts into a puddle.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:19 PM
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On a discussion about recriticality;

"Changing a core's surroundings can be of extreme importance. During the Manhattan project, the "demon core" that most people associate with killing Louis Slotin actually killed Harry Daghlian first. Daghlian was doing experiments on neutron reflectors with the subcritical assembled core. He was stacking tungsten carbide bricks around it in a controlled manner and taking measurements when he accidentally dropped a brick onto the assembly. The brick gave enough reflectivity to the core's surroundings and it went critical and gave Daghlian a massive dose."
www.physicsforums.com...

If dropping something on fuel can create recriticality, what the hell would happen to a thousand plus rods (unit 4 SFP) hitting the ground while going dry.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:22 PM
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TRN p637


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by hack2011

Corium from unit #3 is still in the water table; corium doesn't disappear that fast. Wherever it is, it is producing massive amounts of radiation and heat. I know of only one place where it can do that and not cause another steam explosion... submerged underwater.

You notice I said 'another' steam explosion. We ascertained some time back that the explosion that damaged the #3 building was actually multiple explosions occurring simultaneously. One of those was a steam explosion which was powerful enough to seed the Jet stream with some radioactive isotopes... the same ones found later in minute quantities in North America.

If they are allowing #2 to sink into bedrock, there is a possibility of another steam explosion. It all depends on how much water hits the corium and how hot that corium is when it hits. In #3, the sinking produced no steam explosion, but the initial meltdown did; let's hope #2 doesn't produce one when it hits seawater.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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For Matador's benefit, TRN pg 579


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by SDoradus

Oh, holy crap...


C: In some of the images below the round floor is a large hole that lets you see deeper inside the reactor building. There appears to be a roundish structure below.

That, my friend, is the reactor pressure vessel itself (or what is left of it) where there was once uranium and plutonium rods separated by control rods. Notice in the top two photos that this is where a great deal of the steam is coming from. That is also a good indication that there is also no bottom to this structure.

The corium melted its way out the bottom just before the explosion, opening the inner part of the reactor up. When the steam flashed, it immediately filled the area right above it, which was apparently the reactor vessel. When the hydrogen explosion went off, it allowed the steam to escape violently as well.

I originally thought the steam explosion had come from around the sides of the RPV. Nope. It came from the RPV itself. That massive plume of dark gray smoke was the innards of the reactor being blown into the air.

You know, I have seen those things pretty close up... well, close enough for my tastes anyway... but I never thought I would look down into one (much less had a desire to). The plume must have been tremendously radioactive!

I also used to hate being right earlier in this thread. Now I think I hate being wrong even more.


TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by zworld
 


Pulling forward a post from page 914 I made about the breathing blob of Fubarium. Gives a whole new meaning to the terror of The Blob. Hollywood left out a few possibilities it sadly seems. Sorry to share this even.


Originally posted by DancedWithWolves
Sharing...

#Fukushima I Nuke Accident: Arnie Gundersen's Interview with Chris Martenson




(h/t Helios)

"Exclusive Arnie Gundersen Interview: The Dangers of Fukushima Are Worse and Longer-lived Than We Think"

Part 1
Part 2

Gundersen thinks the melted fuel is at the bottom of Containment Vessels in Reactor 1 and 2; for Reactor 3, he thinks there may be some left in the Reactor Pressure Vessel, causing a local, on-and-off criticality:

Arnie Gundersen: Yes, once the uranium melts into a blob at these low enrichments, four and five percent, it can’t make a new criticality. If criticality is occurring on the site - and there might be, because there is still iodine 131, which is a good indication - it is not coming from the Unit 1 core and it's not coming from the Unit 2 core, because those are both blobs at the bottom of the containment.

Chris Martenson: All right, so we have these blobs, they’ve somehow escaped the primary reactor pressure vessel, which is that big steel thing and now they are on the relatively flat floor of the containment – they concrete piece – and you say Unit 2 is roughly the same story as Unit 1 – where’s Unit 3 in this story?

Arnie Gundersen: Unit 3 may not have melted through and that means that some of the fuel certainly is lying on the bottom, but it may not have melted through and some of the fuel may still look like fuel, although it is certainly brittle. And it's possible that when the fuel is in that configuration that you can get a re-criticality. It's also possible in any of the fuel pools, one, two, three, and four pools, that you could get a criticality, as well. So there’s been frequent enough high iodine indications to lead me to believe that either one of the four fuel pools or the Unit 3 reactor is in fact, every once in a while starting itself up and then it gets to a point where it gets so hot that it shuts itself down and it kind of cycles. It kind of breathes, if you will.

The Fukushima accident is worse than Chernobil, Gundersen says:

Arnie Gundersen: Well, this event is – I have said it's worse than Chernobyl and I’ll stand by that. There was an enormous amount of radiation given out in the first two to three weeks of the event. And add the wind and blowing in-land. This could be – it could very well have brought the nation of Japan to its knees, I mean there is so much contamination that luckily wound up in the Pacific Ocean as compared to across the nation of Japan. It could have cut Japan in half. But now the winds have turned, so they are heading to the south toward Tokyo and now my concern and my advice to friends that if there is a severe aftershock and the Unit 4 building collapses, leave. We are well beyond where any science has ever gone at that point and nuclear fuel lying on the ground and getting hot is not a condition that anyone has ever analyzed.

So the plants, you will see them steaming and as summer goes on, you will see them steaming less, because the air is warmer, but it's not because they are not steaming, you just don’t see it. Because this event occurred in March and it was cool there, so you will see the steam a lot easier. Those plants are still omitting a lot of radiation. Nowhere near as much as on the first two weeks, but a lot of radiation: cesium, strontium, and mainly cesium and strontium – those are going to head south, whether or not there is a tropical hurricane. The wind is going to push it south this time and so the issue is not the total radiation you might measure with a Geiger counter in your hand, but hot particles.

And TEPCO and the Japanese government can't just give up and pour concrete over the mess, because the cores are just too hot:

Chris Martenson: So talk about -- realistically – I mean this is going to be months, years, whatever, it's going to take a long time. What do they do at this point, are they going to entomb these things, are they required to just keep dumping water on these things until they finally cool down, capturing water all the way through? Or is there some way that they can maybe just throw up their hands and just pour a bunch of concrete on it and call it a day?

Arnie Gundersen: I think eventually they may get to the point of throwing up their hands and pouring the concrete on. They can’t do that yet, because the cores are still too hot. So we are going to see the dance we’re in for another year or so, until the cores cool down. At that point, there’s not anywhere near as much decay heat and you probably could consider filling them with concrete and just letting sit there, like we have it at Chernobyl, as a giant mausoleum. That would work for units 1, 2, and 3. Unit 4 is still a problem, because again all the fuel is at the top and you can’t put the concrete at the top because you will collapse the building and it's so radioactive, you can’t lift the nuclear fuel out. I used to do this as a living and Unit 4 has me stumped.


EX-SKF

I feel like we have entered a horrifying twilight zone now. These blobs...are breathing. Breathing. How is a breathing blob, possibly cycling criticality, going to ever end?
edit on 4-6-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:56 PM
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TRN, pg511


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by -W1LL

No, but the rapidity that sinkholes exhibit are indicative of how quickly geological changes can happen. Look at how long it took for Japan to move, what was it? 8 meters? It took less than a minute.

It also shifted stresses, as evidenced by the continual large aftershocks. Each aftershock has a potential for widening any crack in the bedrock.

We also have a meltdown, as evidenced by the double explosion at Unit #3... one part hydrogen, one part a steam flash explosion. That is indicative of a meltdown and corium suddenly encountering a mass of water. How could the corium encounter a sudden mass of water unless either the pumps started suddenly working (without any power at the time) or the corium escaped into an outside water source?

That means we have been in China Syndrome mode since March 14th re Unit #3.

Forget the movie... it was fiction. There are many theories surrounding what will happen during such an event, and one is that the corium will reach equilibrium inside the underlying ground, after melting through a section of it. Essentially, this equilibrium would occur when the thermal mass of the ensuing lava around the corium becomes large enough to dissipate as much heat as is being produced. The entire mass of corium just sits there, in a pool of lava that is neither growing nor shrinking.

Some believe this is more probable an outcome when this lava pool encounters water under pressure, which is consistent with the conditions at Fukushima assuming the meltdown did occur on March 14th. Such an event would create a massive amount of radioactive contamination into the ocean at the depth of the exposure. As far as I know, the radiation readings are taken at the surface.

So we have (IMO) a mass of liquid corium, sitting inside a larger mass of lava, deep inside a section of bedrock that has cracked from the megathrust event and opened fissures allowing seawater inside it. And due to the after shocks, these fissures are growing. The radiation readings we have seen at the ocean surface, while extremely high, are minimal compared to what is lurking deeper below. And as long as the fissures are growing, it will only get worse. The only course of action I can fathom is to plug these fissures.

The attempts to seal these smaller surface cracks may be test runs to see if the idea is feasible. This is bad news, because they have failed.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 09:07 PM
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TRN, pg488

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by SFA437

The MK I GE BWR has a poor flange design. An overpressure could have ripped the bolts out releasing whatever was inside under pressure.

Those thuds could have definitely been from bolts popping out of a flange. As a matter of fact, the multiple thuds in succession would seem to lend itself to that theory. As each bolt pops (sending pressure waves through a huge steel vessel that acts like a massive amplifier), it increases stress on the adjacent bolts, causing them to pop, and so on until pressure is sufficiently released.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Wertwog
TRN, pg511


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by -W1LL
We also have a meltdown, as evidenced by the double explosion at Unit #3... one part hydrogen, one part a steam flash explosion. That is indicative of a meltdown and corium suddenly encountering a mass of water.

TheRedneck


Thanks for all the redneck posts. I dont agree with some of his theories, but by and large it's more insightful than other forums and blogs were speculating at the time. Concerning the #3 explosion though, Im still not convinced that the fuel ejected from the core. Hydrogen yes, but Im waiting for the EPAs final report on the issue.....just kidding of course....Im waiting to see more pictures from 3. We know they have the ability to do this so it should be done. Another request for them.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by curioustype
 


reposting a site map for you of Fukushima I



There are A LOT of waste facilities/SPF/dryer pools (not shown often)/reactors/cask facilities/etc. there. A lot. The list is so long, an etc. can be applied. Add in now the temporary radioactive water storage tanks not noted here and ...well...no...it's not good. I would imagine most facilities are stacked deep in used fuel as long-term storage has never been solved.

The head of the NRC is taking hits in the news the past few days for shutting down the Yucca Mountain option.

Fire NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko



Source

And yes, somewhere in this thread - it was predicted that he would be sacrificed in the name of change. Looks like folks here were right.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by zworld

Originally posted by Wertwog
TRN, pg511


Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by -W1LL
We also have a meltdown, as evidenced by the double explosion at Unit #3... one part hydrogen, one part a steam flash explosion. That is indicative of a meltdown and corium suddenly encountering a mass of water.

TheRedneck


Thanks for all the redneck posts. I dont agree with some of his theories, but by and large it's more insightful than other forums and blogs were speculating at the time. Concerning the #3 explosion though, Im still not convinced that the fuel ejected from the core. Hydrogen yes, but Im waiting for the EPAs final report on the issue.....just kidding of course....Im waiting to see more pictures from 3. We know they have the ability to do this so it should be done. Another request for them.


Here is one that may help, pg 477

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by zorgon

I just went through it again... the initial flash was at 0:02. At 0:04, 0:06, and 0:08 there were thuds... not explosive booms, but thuds. Three in a row, at roughly 2 second intervals. I believe we were hearing ruptures in the containment, possibly from pressure and overheating.

The actual explosion occurred a little bit after that, a steam explosion as corium hit water. We didn't hear that sound because the video cut off 11 seconds after the initial flash.

So based on that, here's what might have happened. I am giving times, where I can, in seconds after the initial event:
  • 0:00 - There is a pressure release in the reactor pressure vessel.
  • 0:02 - The new stresses cause a second break in the RPV.
  • 0:04 - Another break occurs in the RPV. Corium is now sliding out of its container.
  • Corium begins creating a massive amount of steam, which builds pressure inside the building.
  • 0:28 - The video begins showing.
  • 0:30 - Steam pressure builds up within the building, causing something to ignite, causing the flash. This was probably a small pocket of hydrogen which was mixed with a lot of air. The color indicates that it was in an area which contained other combustible materials (hydrogen flames are almost invisibe). I am assuming at this point that the bulk of the hydrogen was too concentrated to be flammable.
  • 0:32 - The flash ruptures the building and starts releasing the steam explosively, along with anything else in its way. The bulk of the hydrogen begins mixing with outside air. We hear the sound of the first RPV breach.
  • 0:34 - We hear the sound of the second RPV breach.
  • 0:36 - We hear the sound of the third RPV breach.
  • The bulk of the now-liberated hydrogen ignites from the initial flash, causing a horizontal wavefront that triggers the earthquake and tsunami sensors.

The above assumes a distance which would create a 30-second delay between light and sound reception. Would someone please let me know if this is about right? I forget the actual distance.

TheRedneck



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