It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 829.htm
513
<< 826  827  828    830  831  832 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:01 PM
link   
reply to post by rbrtj
 


What's going to make the litter clump? The radiation?




posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:07 PM
link   
reply to post by DancedWithWolves
 


Man I think that art is cool and pretty well rendered in the other fellows style they should leave it , perhaps the government of Japan can use it as a symbol of their attempt at re-humanizing themselves.

Of course that may not be possible they seem a little confused at the root of things as I was trying to discover the mysterious METI codes on the tepco warning/error codes ( from the reactor data gauges ) I figured that the Ministry of Economic Trade an Industry or METI website would , logically , would have the decoder ring for such posted as a public service on standards and measure and such ,

and they do have a section listed as "Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency"

And first on it at #149 on Meti's list, sure enough is " Act on the Regulation of Nuclear Source Material, Nuclear Fuel Material and Reactors which seems to be concise enough. Unfortunately when you click the link you see:


which wouldn't make sense except in the current situational light I guess, but although somewhat unsatisfied
the link at #151 on the list is:
Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
ah, now this seems to be the stuff , eh ? special measure on preparedness,surely some though provoking and re-assuring information and illumination will be found here...but when you follow the link:



hhhmmmm?, I guess this explains the problem they cannot fix the reactors because the special preparedness for Emergencies accidentally is confusing nuclear reactors with integrated circuit design from 1985, a perfectly reasonable mistake , I can see how the two have the same level of hazard status , I mean a bad circuit design could cause the brakes to fail on that reactor , or leave unsigned code in the security hash and allow it's root to be hacked and then where would we be , eh? that's some fine out of the box thinking there . Who needs giant robots, food or clean air when we have emergency preparation of this clarity and analytical prowess?
edit on 4-5-2011 by Silverlok because: six thumbs you'd think would be an attribute



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:12 PM
link   
reply to post by Moonbeams771
 


My apologies and please stay on.
I suffer from a bad back and get cranky when I have to plow through old material over and over then don't get credit or see others not get credit for things.

Not your fault, I should be working on my book and getting more exercise anyhow.
I hope you find your niche in this thread.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:17 PM
link   
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


mmmm probably the water, this would keep it in place instead of the ocean.
japan's mistake and they should contain it on there soil and remember what happened and not remove it fron the history books like they did ww2.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by DancedWithWolves
So sad he was recycled. Zorgon I hope you can find a way to work him into your site anyway. On second thought...maybe an angry Panda would be more appropriate.


yeah I will just update the correction. Pity though... that was one of the best ones
But then the way they let the farm animals just starve to death in the evac zone... I hope they didn't have a zoo in that area



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by Silverlok
 


You spell it out very well and I hope "Tepco" gets on the same wave length soon.
What do you think of Des's kitty litter idea?



edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: (no reason given)


It's better than the nothing Tepco has been trying to perfect as a solution , some of the pentahydrates can absorb insane amounts of water and combined with the heat in the concrete submerged areas this is clearly an issues as we certainly have silicate gel forming inside the concrete ( and cracking it ) might as well dump it out side the cracks to keep the water from getting to them, the problem is Tepco cannoy clean the meltdown coolant fast enough for the amount of heat transfer needed so they are tacitly "utilizing" the leaks ( ocean sewage, wherever...) because they are too cheap to try anything besides pump and dump.

I like the idea of the liquid glass mixed with lead shot , if they just filled the entire CV with lead shot the hot spots would melt into the cracks and the weight of the water would enventually smash the lead into other small leaks ( not a positive seal , but still ) , also cat litter is real a hi-tech sand that can also absorb water so in the flooded basements cat liter, then lead pellets then concrete aught to get things rolling

(edit) now that I think about itthey should be doing this or at least diatomaceous earth in all the reactor basements to act as nucleotide filters, it would concentrate the radiation but it would reduce run-off(more 'clean' water could escape ) and they could use one of those commercial roofing vacuums (the kind that suck the rocks off, (hehehe, no seriously it's a real machine)) to blow lead pellets a couple inches (feet) deep on top of the absorber/filter material to reduce radiation counts inside the reactor buildings
edit on 4-5-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by Moonbeams771
your re posting old stuff and or ripping off other peoples work.
Please bring in new information or at least read the thread before you post.
Thank you


I think that was uncalled for... a lot of stuff gets repeated. As to ripping off others work... are not the news releases for all to see?



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by Hellhound604
something about these videos always makes me wonder about something.... I would like to know exactly where these bots are, because the vast majority of these rooms doesn't look as though there were huge explosions that blasted away most of the buildings, it looks too tidy...


Yeah I was asking that when I saw the reflection of the workers in the first videos. Supposed to be too hot in the area, that is why the bots... so what were the workers doing there? For all we know the bots are in the disaster training mockup...
There is no independent verification on anything TEPCO does, which is the biggest travesty of the whole situation.
edit on 4-5-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by mrbillshow
Tepco and Guv have stated they won't excercize the concrete option, preferring to dismantel the plant and remove all the radioactive material to be scrubbed and then buried somewhere where no one can see it.


That is probably the smartest thing they have said. I don't see a concrete tomb doing much good on that piece of land considering the subsidence, etc and the fact that they did say there was an underground stream that already leaked into the buildings before the accident



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:35 PM
link   
reply to post by Silverlok
 


Strategy wise and how cheap they seem makes me wonder if they are also waiting for the weather to change to full out monsoon season.to take care of the cooling etc.

Zorgon's swimming pool got me thinking also that if they could plug the intakes or out-takes they could find the leaks easier do to the geyser effect of the added pressure.
Then the sand bag idea would make sence in two ways one to keep the tide away and to keep the waste water in until they can build a deconamination processing plant near sight.

edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: clarification....... time to go out and enjoy the sun.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by Communicater
This is referred to as the partially accessible list...
english.kyodonews.jp...


Don't be fooled by the subscription note. What you are seeing on Kyodo news here is the ticker announcements. The subscription is for their other news. The reports we see are all there is on that one... just the ticker headlines... like this one

Gov assumed massive radiation exposure from Fukushima nuclear plant


TOKYO, May 3, Kyodo

The government assumed a worst-case scenario of ''significant public exposure'' to radiation when workers were struggling to bring a nuclear reactor under control at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant a day after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, Kyodo News learned Tuesday.


english.kyodonews.jp...

So... they knew all along it was going to be a "worst case scenario"



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 01:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


mmmm probably the water, this would keep it in place instead of the ocean.
japan's mistake and they should contain it on there soil and remember what happened and not remove it fron the history books like they did ww2.


What water?



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:03 PM
link   
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


Answer......The radioactive water that is the result of all the fresh and or sea water poured on the plant?


edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: retype



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:08 PM
link   
reply to post by zorgon
 


Even if they were inclined they can't entomb the buildings until they've cooled the remaining fuel sufficiently, which they can't do until they get existing or new cooling capabilities online, which they can't do until they can enter the buildings, which they can't do until they remove the highly radiated water and scrub the air.

If it's the intention of Tepco to dismantle the plant or even go the entombing route, then they are making the right moves. They don't have a lot of options. Remove the existing radiated water and any new water being injected into temporary containers or underground tanks, scrub the radiated air inside the buildings, keep the fuel in the RPV's and spent fuel pools cool via temporary measures until more permanent ones can be introduced, cool the fuel to a temp below potential criticality (which will take many months), the dismantle the plant piece by piece and bury it in the mountains far away from population centers.

Then they will scrape the entire premises and make it a botanical garden so for 500 years future Japanese citizens don't have to look at and be reminded that they are not of smarter than the rest of the world and in fact are subject to bad judgement, bad decisions and incompetence like the Russians at Chernobyl. People are wondering why the Russians are taking the route they are with Fukushima, it's because they are as giddy as school girls at the prospect of having Fukushima replace Chernobyl as the poster child for nuclear irresponsibility, negligence and scandal. The Russians schadenfreude, although contemptable, is at least understandable.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:12 PM
link   
Why can't they do what I suggested and seal off the intakes and contain the water run off that will keep the crap cooler?

edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: I'm not giving up.

edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


Answer......The radioactive water that is the result of all the fresh and or sea water poured on the plant?


edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: retype


So you are suggesting they dump thousands of tons of tainted kitty litter into the subterranean tunnels, turbine buildings, condensor units, reactor building basements, suppression chambers, primary containment vessels and reactor pressure vessels and then all of these huge, massive hardened litter conglomerates will be removed by small remote controlled robots with tiny kitty litter size scoopers that can't possibly reach 90% of the areas in question? Not to mention this suggestion doesn't address the remaining fuel elements that will now finish melting down into 3000+ degree corium and criticality.

You're probably wondering why I'm jumping on you instead of the OP. It's because, and for the life of me I can't undertstand, why anyone would respond to that suggestion with "What a GREAT idea, let's DO THAT!"

This comment will undoubtably be removed, as many hard hitting but brutally honest comments do on this site. This entire website says it is dedicated to the discovery of truth but that is a lie. Sometimes the truth hurts and if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by Silverlok
reply to post by jadedANDcynical
 


NO not off at all, I am wondering that although I do not think the salt build up at #3 was as bad , but...seawater could have been trapped in the bottom of the CV this whole time , I think the worst we'd see is surface boiling creating chloride compounds in rapid cycles ( mostly HCl ) which would rapidly react with the water ( once it left the suface boil zone and the oxygen sodium reactions simply lowering the boiling temp of water and adding lots of heat energy to the corium heat-up process until the sodium metals migrated to regions that could form naoh, which should re-disperse the salt no explosively ...


I think some of the exotics are perhaps hydrochlorofluorocarbons ( taking some of the clhoride, or 'gasified ' as it were ..these would be extremely bad as they will definitely get to high altitudes )
)
edit on 4-5-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)


damn I think we may be getting methyl chloride :

"Most chloromethane is prepared by reacting methanol with hydrogen chloride, according to the chemical equation

CH3OH + HCl → CH3Cl + H2O

This can be carried out either by bubbling hydrogen chloride gas through boiling methanol with or without a zinc chloride catalyst, or by passing combined methanol and hydrogen chloride vapors over an alumina catalyst at 350 °C.
A smaller amount of chloromethane is produced by heating a mixture of methane and chlorine to over 400 °C. However, this method also results in more highly chlorinated compounds such as methylene chloride and chloroform and is usually only used when these other products are also desired.

Further reaction of chloromethane with chlorine can produce dichloromethane, trichloromethane (known as chloroform) and tetrachloromethane (also known as carbon tetrachloride)." -wikipedia
edit on 4-5-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)


this is the difference mox heat makes
edit on 4-5-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)


I've been looking over this as the exposition at three did not seem to be able to produce enough energy through either steam or hydrogen based on the chemistry we had at had , the low pressure number in the #3 rpv 'chimmney' have had me itching , it's the invisibility of most of that discharge (little moisture), and after a bit of digging I ran across this : Reactions of Plutonium Dioxide with water and oxygen-hydrogen mixtures: mechanism for the corrosion of Uranium and Plutonium (warning pdf)

I haven't fully digested it yet but a couple of very important bits are the different temperatures structures that Uranium and Plutonium have high reactivities (plutonium is less than half of uranium's) and the fact that the individual hydrogen and oxygen ions collect on the uranium/plutonium before reacting , which can increase the chemical reaction output by a factor of 400 for uranium and 250 for plutonium when going from a 'dry' environment to a 'wet' one ,

Also it appears that under the right conditions (which we appear to have in both #1 and #3) plutonium , and uranium hydrides (UH2, and PuH2) can form in measurable amounts and mimic the fluorite structure even at temps as low as 25C, the upshot is that the PuH2, and UH2 could be acting as the 'fluoro' in the hydrochlorofluorocarbons creation (which we certainly have the right conditions for ) and just like the refrigerants of the same ilk could be transporting uranium and plutonium ( constantly ) as high as the ozone layer ....

it would certainly explain the low pressure readings at #3 better than methyl chloride (which might tend to stay in even hot water) , it also explains some of the high pressure readings at #1 as those would be how this chemistry reveals itself in that slightly different environment as oxide formations on stainless steal



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:31 PM
link   
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


The kitty litter idea was a seperate hypothetical.
Bottom line they need to contain before they kill off the entire pacific ocean.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:40 PM
link   
reply to post by rbrtj
 


My next question is kind of off topic, but it goes to profit motive with any disaster.

Are you invested in seafood futures?

I'll be happy to start another thread on the economic impacts.
edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: miss spell

edit on 4-5-2011 by rbrtj because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 02:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


The kitty litter idea was a seperate hypothetical.
Bottom line they need to contain before they kill off the entire pacific ocean.


They can't contain at this point as the radiated water is seeping into the ocean (and has been from the start and as I theorized over a month ago) via groundwater under the plant. The only thing they can do which they have already suggested but got passing reference on this thread, is to dig down to the bedrock and build a cofferdam up to the ground level in a several hundred yard arch surrounding the reactor buildings, or, discontinue the injection of water into compromised spent fuel tanks, containment vessels and reactor cores which they can't do because the remaining water will boil off or drain out of those vessels and cause the now dry fuel to go critical.

The Japanese are between a rock and a hard place and have chosen the hard place.




top topics



 
513
<< 826  827  828    830  831  832 >>

log in

join