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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 692.htm
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posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by bitbytebit
 


Just a FYI - They DO moniter this site. Over in the Yellowstone Thread during the last swarm we were told as much and also asked for opinions from the USGS working under and along with the US Department of Interior. We are Watched very, very closely!

EDIT to add = If they are still dumping water and on some just enough to cool, wouldn't we be seeing steam? Wouldn't there be a bunch of chaos running about on the waters shore line? Another reason I think we are being fed stock photos on the webcam.
edit on 13-4-2011 by Anmarie96 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

..."perhaps using ladders because original cranes may be damaged."

AH so they will be using Liquidators after all



Are they called Liquidators because they are being liquidated by their job?
- Liquidated in more than one sense of the word. That amount of radiation breaks down cell walls, turning your insides to mush.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by bitbytebit

this is the real problem. We are using reactors built 30 and 40 years ago instead of building NEW and IMPROVED reactors, all because of anti-nuke people and excessive regulation.

I think every reactor should be replaced with a new one, we've come a long way in 40 years.


What? The anti-nuke people are the ones that have prevented this from happening non stop. Look at how some of these reactors were built, they are containing one of the most powerful processes known to man.

The anti-nuke people had it right, these reactors should have never been built and been held to much higher specifications then they were. That's why they stopped making them is because it takes a lot of money to make a "safe" reactor.

Even now it is difficult to meet all the guidelines put forth. Thats the way it should be. This should have never happened in japan, but nothing was built properly and had all been grandfathered in.

Anything built by humans will have errors in it. There are other ways to get this kind of power, as in pulling the extra nuetrons out of deuterium and tritium, which would give us about 3 billion years worth of power at the current rates, and the only by product of that would be water.

I agree all the plants should be overhauled. Think about the tech in 1970's, that's what we have controlling these reactors.

Pred...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Curio
Does anybody else feel their bile rise when those annoying little mouth-pieces emerge onto the stage. They're like Oompa Loompas only even more annoying


yeah and what really irks me is that no one in the Japanese press is asking QUESTIONS Is it not allowed to ask questions at Japanese press releases? or are they just not showing them?


The press is funded by advertising, therefore advertisers can control the content.

Some of the biggest advertisers have interests in nuclear power, and thus won't advertise on media which tells the truth about what's going on.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by maria81

well, I thought it would be a very nice way to keep face...
imagine, TEPCO could announce something like "we caught the corium on the loose... not like the russians who had to entomb it. Situation is under full control."

I believe it would really be a near complete rehabilitation.
Unfortunately, it would also signify that even a core melting "is not so bad, after all, you can catch it again." which would lead to more lax security measures.

So, I don't know what to hope for...


If TEPCO could find some safe way to remove and store the corium, I agree, it would be a huge boon for the nuclear industry in a time when they desperately need it. But I think you're right on the money in that they would use the experience to promote an image of competence and safety that will never be more than an illusion so long as money can be made.

Honestly, I don't know what to hope for either. Some days I just wish the whole darn plant would blow sky high or disappear into the sea, come what may, so we could wash our hands of the whole thing. Of course, we really couldn't, but "out of sight, out of mind" sounds real good sometimes. It's alluring.
Mostly I just hope my family, especially my son, never have to pay for the mistakes others make and that maybe, just maybe, as a global society we can learn from this and prevent further mishaps. I don't have a lot of faith in the latter though. About all I can do personally is reduce our own risk as much as reasonably possible and accept that whatever will be, will be (que sera). I've actually found myself singing that song a lot lately in an attempt to find some measure of comfort in this chaos. Now would be a good time to throw myself into Buddhism.


Now would also be a good time for a UFO abduction --- of the entire Daiichi plant.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by Anmarie96
reply to post by bitbytebit
 


Just a FYI - They DO moniter this site. Over in the Yellowstone Thread during the last swarm we were told as much and also asked for opinions from the USGS working under and along with the US Department of Interior. We are Watched very, very closely!

EDIT to add = If they are still dumping water and on some just enough to cool, wouldn't we be seeing steam? Wouldn't there be a bunch of chaos running about on the waters shore line? Another reason I think we are being fed stock photos on the webcam.
edit on 13-4-2011 by Anmarie96 because: (no reason given)


do you have a link to that ?

And , it is most likely that the water is leaking ( or being vented )through the heat exchanger already in the ocean or cracks in the builds/ ground, most likely they could simply keep pumping water intot the reactors and buildings and the hydraulic pressure and tides would move the water fast enough to keep the steam to a minimum. Also the nitrogen injection should be happening in a steam environment and with "flat pressure" should be leaking out somewhere, perhaps they are able to contain it and leak it at night or most of the material is already under water (fissioning away happily ) and the hydrogen is mixing with nitrogen in a 'dry environment' and escaping as a 'not-water vapor rich' gas.

In any even they would not vent steam in the midday day if they could avoid it ( inversions would push radioactive real back toward the plant), and know the timing of the camera and thus could easily avoid detection that way.

interestingly the drone showed steam from three that was not visible on the camera , but the angle could have been blocking it ...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by TheRemedial
reply to post by Kailassa
 


You see and that is the attitude that will end up biting us all in the you know where. Not willing to walk away from 5 and 6? These people have to be kidding us; that whole plant is done. It is absolutely cooked and they better smarten up and cut there loses before they add the people of Japan and the aquatic life the same.

Just the idea that they are considering salvaging 5 and 6 tells me that the "Best solutions" are not an option.

Sickening


Exactly.
And just imagine the radiation doses the workers would be getting working there ...
Though I guess TEPCO wouldn't care. They consider the bulk of their labour force disposable, and they already had a reputation for having the most radioactive reactor in town. Fukushima Dai-ichi one has had unusually high levels of radioactivity in the working areas for many years.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by ChessGuru
Much discussion has gone on about the destroyer escorted barge and what it may have been up to. Is it possible it was just removing new fuel cores? Just how well protected are these from the bombardment that must be occurring give the number of uncontrolled criticalities in the area?

Perhaps the MOX fuel is especially at risk. If so what do you think they did with them? It would be nice if someone with expertise could address the type of storage these are likely to be in and if it is possible that they would be at risk.

I can’t imagine that the storage design was built with the present environment in mind as the greedy execs would have decided this will never happen so save some $ by building them to a lower standard.

Each reactor building has a cooling pool for both new and spent fuel built into it, above the reactor.
This is where new fuel is stored, and the old fuel is also kept here for ~ 10 years until it can be moved to the joint cooling pool in a separate building. After it's cooled down sufficiently it can be moved to dry cask storage, but each dry cask costs ~ a million dollars, so the management pack the fuel in the pools closer and closer together to avoid having to pay out for dry casks. This, of course, increases the change of damage to the stored fuel causing the reactions to start up again, resulting in spent pool fires and melted poolium, as may have happened already.

Tepco have already admitted to MOX fuel rods being both in reactor 3, and in the totally destroyed reactor 3 cooling pool.

As the pools in the damaged reactor buildings have become dangerous and pretty inaccessible, it's unlikely anything is being taken from them. It's probably better, at this stage, to keep all the radioactive mess together at one site.

That destroyer certainly must be there for a purpose, but that purpose is still a mystery.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by Kailassa
Have you looked at the long daily lists of earthquakes in that part of Japan?
You can't work in ground which is that unstable. What you build one day will be collapsed all around you the next day.


well, Tokyo is still standing... and somehow it has been built. Likewise the tunnels in Japan. But I understand that your opinion is fixed on this. Luckily you are not the one who has the final say about this. I just give ideas and let experts in mining and underground construction do the feasability calculations.


Originally posted by Kailassa
There are two ways you could further heat that corium. One is to add more fuel to enlarge the mixture and increase the reaction rate, the other is to set off a nuke in it. Which one do you recommend?

Or were you perhaps planning to install a heating element?


a heating element would be perfect. Use a laser and get exactly the size of hole and corium flow you like.


Originally posted by Kailassa
For some reason all TEPCO's efforts have been to cool the corium. Perhaps you'd like to give them a ring and explain why they should be heating it instead?


to make it fluid enough to flow down the shaft into the containers.


Originally posted by Kailassa
Heating corium like that would not turn it into gold. You need to start with mercury or platinum to obtain gold. The random decays of escaped corium will produce a great number of different elements and isotopes, possibly with gold amongst them, but it won't be any good to anyone..
Any gold produced by neutron bombardment is dangerously radioactive, and would need to be disposed of as nuclear waste. Nobody in their right minds would be trying to get hold of it.


I don't recall that I proposed transmutation of corium into gold. But of course you are perfectly free to read into my texts whatever you like and try to twist my words to absurdity. If you continue in this vein, I just won't take you serious anymore.


Originally posted by KailassaLinks please to these experiments with heating a massive amount of escaped corium.


It was somewhere mentioned in this thread. but here is the background and further reading.


Originally posted by KailassaI've carefully explained to you some of the reasons why your ideas wouldn't work.

stupid me again. sorry if I was not able to catch the core of your very arguments.


Originally posted by KailassaIf you didn't notice the reasons I gave, perhaps you should start reading the replies people give you instead of insulting them.


apart from open insults and ranting, there is nothing what qualifies inherently as insulting. It is always the perceived insult on the side of the person reading a text that determines if insult is there or is not there.

I could easily choose to be insulted from your bending of my words, for example see above the transmutation issue. but why should I choose to do so? It is only the own ego that can be insulted. So no problem here...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by Silverlok
 


I'll try and find the page for you either later today or tomorrow when I am on High Speed. It is on or around page 450 I think. They contacted Robin first. It was really a great thing and to our suprise, they started giving us updates during the swarm which we had asked for (Well best they could that is) I am at home today feeling a little under the weather and trying to get to that page will take me hours. Thinking back we had a great poster - Shirakawa, they really wanted alot of information from him as we caught onto the mine blasts coming in from the East and Shirakawa learned and taught us how to tell the different signatures. Strange though, we have not heard from him since the begining of March 2010. Makes me wonder if he's under gag order - which makes me worry that we have not heard from The RedNeck!



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Kailassa

When TEPCO officials speak, they are lying.
When TEPCO officials stop speaking, it's because they don't know which lie should be told next.
When TEPCO officials bow, it's to study their cheat-sheets to find out which lies should be told next.


That reminds me of the Scrubs episode where the blonde hid cheat-sheets all over the hospital: in bed pans, taped to other doctor's, etc.


Originally posted by Kailassa

Doesn't that picture make you wish you were there, holding a good sharp samurai sword?
I wonder if bowing originated as the human equivalent to an animal revealing its neck to show submission?


Sometimes I'd like to chain them all together and march them into one of the reactor buildings. But in all fairness I have to ask myself if those are the people who deserve it. Do they make any real decisions? Or are they simply the yes-men and mouthpieces for the those who truly have power? Do they even know the truth? I guess I question whether they're only guilty of having a job and feeding their families or actually complacent in the lax safety issues, lies, and deceit we've witnessed. Without knowing, it doesn't seem quite fair to ask the scapegoat to fall on a sword. Now the actual higher-level executives, decision makers, and complacent politicians...for them I would personally learn blacksmithing to assist in creating the necessary supply of wakizashi to ensure their honorable demise.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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To get an idea of the scale of what the impact of this nuclear disaster will be (in terms of Japan), let's make some estimates as to how much land will be permanently uninhabitable. Using the past, current and proposed or discussed evactuation zones as a basis. The numbers are really quite staggering.

We can use the radius of the various evacutation zones to calculate the area of the circle that would be effected. Of course, being on the East coast of Japan, a large portion of that circle is actually out to sea. So, let's assume roughly half of that circle is represents the area of land that would be uninhabitable. The rough total land area of Japan is approximately 377,944 Square-Kilometers, or 145,925 Square-Miles (Source:Wikipedia)

  • 20 Kilometers (6.2 Miles) Radius = 1,256 Square-KM / 2 = 628 Square-KM (242 Square-Miles)
  • 30 Kilometers (18.6 Miles) Radius = 2,827 Square-KM / 2 = 1,413 Square-KM (545 Square-Miles)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator
 

I wonder ..how do we calculate how much of the sea is uninhabitable , we have no Chernobyl for that and half the area affected around the plant is in the sea, and for the large portion of the dump (fall-out)the way the wind has been blowing, so if we have a Chernobyl on land we have a Chernobyl + 70-80%? at sea



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator
 

PS: I nearly had to cry when I calculated that out - thinking of how many families were going to go from being average middle-class "working Joe's" (or whatever the equivalent Japanese expression is), to loosing everything they ever had (in some cases including friends and family due to the earthquake and tsunami), and becoming refugee's overnight - completely dependent on the state and/or charity to just survive, much less start to build some new life for themselves.

Also, just for comparison's sake, you will note that the total land area of Japan is about 89% that of California:
  • The rough total land area of Japan is approximately 377,944 Square-Kilometers, or 145,925 Square-Miles (Source:Wikipedia)
  • The rough total land area of California is approximately 423,970 Square-Kilometers, or 163,696 Square-Miles (Source:Wikipedia)

Think about a similar event ocurring at either of these two Nuclear Power Plants on the California coast:
I will let you draw your own conclusions from that.

edit on 2011-4-13 by EnhancedInterrogator because: Spelling, formatting, grammar, etc.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by EnhancedInterrogator
To get an idea of the scale of what the impact of this nuclear disaster will be (in terms of Japan), let's make some estimates as to how much land will be permanently uninhabitable. Using the past, current and proposed or discussed evactuation zones as a basis. The numbers are really quite staggering.

We can use the radius of the various evacutation zones to calculate the area of the circle that would be effected. Of course, being on the East coast of Japan, a large portion of that circle is actually out to sea. So, let's assume roughly half of that circle is represents the area of land that would be uninhabitable. The rough total land area of Japan is approximately 377,944 Square-Kilometers, or 145,925 Square-Miles (Source:Wikipedia)

  • 20 Kilometers (6.2 Miles) Radius = 1,256 Square-KM / 2 = 628 Square-KM (242 Square-Miles)
  • 30 Kilometers (18.6 Miles) Radius = 2,827 Square-KM / 2 = 1,413 Square-KM (545 Square-Miles)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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edit on 4/13/2011 by Aponi because: Double post somehow. Sorry.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Topeco chose nitrogen injection to lower the chances of another hydrogen explosion...
this was to lower the amount o oxygen to be available for combustion with the hydrogen that was building up in the reactor or at least that was my understanding of their reasoning for the nitrogen injection into reactor #1.
Then this morning I read this:

1919 June - Rutherford bombards nitrogen gas with alpha particles and obtains atoms of an oxygen isotope and protons. This transmutation of nitrogen into oxygen was the first artificially induced nuclear reaction.

LINK
Interesting I wonder if the TOPECO execs read about that?



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Silverlok
reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator
 

I wonder ..how do we calculate how much of the sea is uninhabitable , we have no Chernobyl for that and half the area affected around the plant is in the sea, and for the large portion of the dump (fall-out)the way the wind has been blowing, so if we have a Chernobyl on land we have a Chernobyl + 70-80%? at sea

Yeah, I wonder about that. The good and bad to it is currents and dissipation. It will spread, which could be "good-ish" in the sense that it lowers the levels in any given area. However, that also means it will impact a wider area. Also, with all the dumping that I suspect they have-done or will-do into the ocean - we're in unknown territory again (as with the melt-down's themselves).



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator
 


here is a quote from a post i did way back on 3-16




If a fire were to break out at the Millstone Reactor Unit 3 spent fuel pond in Connecticut, it would result in a three-fold increase in background exposures. This level triggers the NRC’s evacuation requirement, and could render about 29,000 square miles of land uninhabitable , according to Thompson. Connecticut covers only about 5,000 square miles; an accident at Millstone could severely affect Long Island and even New York City


take a look at that thread and see how far off it was a month ago
Spent fuel fire could be worse tha chernobyl



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by AlaskanDad
Topeco chose nitrogen injection to lower the chances of another hydrogen explosion...
this was to lower the amount o oxygen to be available for combustion with the hydrogen that was building up in the reactor or at least that was my understanding of their reasoning for the nitrogen injection into reactor #1.
Then this morning I read this:

1919 June - Rutherford bombards nitrogen gas with alpha particles and obtains atoms of an oxygen isotope and protons. This transmutation of nitrogen into oxygen was the first artificially induced nuclear reaction.

LINK
Interesting I wonder if the TOPECO execs read about that?


They knew the danger and have some information they are keeping under there shirts as they were are betting on leakage (same as the ocean) but with the nitrogen undergoing radiation bombardment by thermal and fast neutrons which travel a lot farther than alpha particles and decay nitrogen into carbon-14 ( the stuff they use for carbon dating ), and probably ammonia,which can be explosive too...I am sure it's why they are keeping tight lips ...lots of balancing on a pinhead for these guys and they are more worried about reparation perception / liability than actual pollution output



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