It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 691.htm
513
<< 688  689  690    692  693  694 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aponi
Radiation surges above 4's fuel pool


Radiation has risen to high levels above the spent-fuel pool at reactor No. 4 and its temperature is rising, the nuclear safety agency said Wednesday, indicating the fuel rods have been further damaged and emitting radioactive substances.The radiation level 6 meters above the spent-fuel storage pool at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant was measured at 84 millisieverts per hour Tuesday. Normally, it's 0.1 microsievert......Tokyo Electric Power Co. was unsure whether the surge in radiation was being caused by the spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel.


Just wanted to give you another Japanese source that actually has this sentence as a DIRECT QUOTE from TEPCO.


The power company says the fuel was covered with water and not exposed. On the question of why the level of radiation was so high, the power firm said, "We think either the fuel in the pool was damaged or materials seeped out from the pressure vessel." Based on that assumption, the power company is analyzing the ingredients of the radioactive materials.


Second source

So, it is not a reporter's paraphrasing and perhaps getting it wrong. It is a direct quote from someone at TEPCO. Again...great catch!

What was in the reactor of #4 as you asked before that was supposedly empty? The spent fuel pool held this:


Of the 1,331 fuel assemblies stored in the pool of the No. 4 reactor, 548 are new and therefore they could generate more heat than ordinary spent nuclear fuel.


And, as many on here called it days ago, how to get cool water to continue flowing in a topped out pool is now creating a bigger problem...


The workers are unable to cool it down sufficiently because they are only pouring on an amount of water that evaporates from the fuel pool, to prevent it from overflowing. Therefore, they are in difficult dilemma.

edit on 13-4-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by Wertwog
reply to post by maria81
 


I'll let the physics do the arguing.

Corium.
Corium at 2400 - 2800 degrees Celsius (but actually temperature unknown)
Instant lethality, no safe exposure.

I'm all for creative ideas and solving things, heck, that's what I do for a living. I also know that when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. I appreciate your enthusiasm to do something. I simply don't get why you want to get it out of the rock. I would think that cooling it in place, trying sand or silica polymers to try to get it to form a mass would be more desirable.Taking measures to try to contain the leaks into the water table with sealants etc may be difficult but worth investigating. Anything that we do now we will have to keep doing for generations and generations and generations.


ok. create a chamber and line it with graphite.
drill many holes downward to hold the corium and line them with graphite.
drill the hole nearly beneath the corium and line it with graphite.
fill the whole chamber with nitrogen gas, so the graphite wouldn't be able to burn.
break through to the corium with drill.
corium will drip down the shaft and fill itself into the holes, forming spent fuel rods.
graphite is stable at up to 3600 degrees. (now argue against that...
)

but you could also create a big chamber and fill it with sand and then let the corium flow into the chamber and get diluted and vitrified.

both ways can be done - and without any human having to endure heavy radiation.

Somehow the chain reaction has to be stopped and if we are lucky, we don't have to do this for generations and generations. That - a permanent solution - is the reason why to get the corium out of the site in small quantities and then begin decommissioning and decontamination of the site.
edit on 13-4-2011 by maria81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by maria81
You would have to line it with concrete wall support, of course, but apart from that there should be no difficulty which engineers have not already mastered often before.

Have you looked at the long daily lists of earthquakes in that part of Japan?
You can't work in ground which is that unstable. What you build one day will be collapsed all around you the next day.



Originally posted by Kailassa
Even if you could do that, corium is not a homogeneous liquid which will flow to order.

Then heat it so that it becomes that liquid. If the corium were 3600 degrees hot molten gold, I bet there would be thousands of ideas to get hold of it and to fill it into appropriate containers.

There are two ways you could further heat that corium. One is to add more fuel to enlarge the mixture and increase the reaction rate, the other is to set off a nuke in it. Which one do you recommend?

Or were you perhaps planning to install a heating element?

For some reason all TEPCO's efforts have been to cool the corium. Perhaps you'd like to give them a ring and explain why they should be heating it instead?

Heating corium like that would not turn it into gold. You need to start with mercury or platinum to obtain gold. The random decays of escaped corium will produce a great number of different elements and isotopes, possibly with gold amongst them, but it won't be any good to anyone..
Any gold produced by neutron bombardment is dangerously radioactive, and would need to be disposed of as nuclear waste. Nobody in their right minds would be trying to get hold of it.



Originally posted by Kailassa
There's no putting the milk back into the cow.

I understand that you are convinced that you personally can think of no way to put milk back into the cow.
But that does not mean there is no way. The absence of a solution is VERY difficult to prove, even in mathematics.

Some people stand in front of a brick wall trying to break it down by beating their heads against it, other people walk around it. You're fixated on one solution, removing the corium, but that does not prove other solutions would not be more efficacious.



Originally posted by Kailassa
Sunken corium is not all runny like a molten, uniform metal. It is non-uniform, as in lumpy, and forms a crust around it, and this crust is incredibly tough. Despite being hard and tough it is still hot, in both senses of the word. It's unlikely there is any drill which could drill through it.

Then heat it. The experiments to core catching did also function with added heat from outside.

- Links please to these experiments with heating a massive amount of escaped corium.



Originally posted by Kailassa
Once the corium is doing this, even if you could move it elsewhere, why would you do this rather than let it bury itself?

because it is an unsolved problem, as it sinks ever deeper and some day arrives at the water table, thus poisoning it permanently.

You know what they say:
"If wishes were fishes, guys would have gills."
The bomb can't always be defused. Sometimes you just have to evacuate the area while it does its thing.



Originally posted by Kailassa
Tantrum time? Insults and sarcasm are not a mature response to people who have pointed out flaws in your ideas.

You just keep on saying it is impossible.
That is just a unfounded statement, but no argument which points out flaws in an idea.
And I leave it entirely to your own judgment if a repeated statement of "it is not possible" without reasons is a mature response.

I've carefully explained to you some of the reasons why your ideas wouldn't work.
If you didn't notice the reasons I gave, perhaps you should start reading the replies people give you instead of insulting them.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:09 PM
link   
reply to post by maria81


Your forgetting one important point... TEPCO is running the show.

The US had a crack team ready to help them contain this before it got bad and they were refused!!! They were told that TEPCO had it under control but thanks for the offer. They said they had no power to run the machines but we had TWO aircraft carriers offshore that have enough power to light up a small city. We had to leave the area because the high level leaks in the ocean would have caused serious issues with the ships reactors

Yes amazing engineering feats ARE possible... but the infrastructure of the region is destroyed, fuel to run machines is in short supply and the radiation levels in the whole are (30km radius) is so high it would make working in the area extremely difficult for any tunneling crew. Sure once under ground they would be protected like the Russian miners were, but the support crew above ground would be exposed

So it MAY be possible... but extremely difficult in this situation..

ESPECIALLY since we still don't even have answers on what is really going on, as it seems that #4 reactor was not shut down as they originally said.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:14 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeons
Now, I guess you could just blow the fracker apart so that the chain reaction is spent all at once and the left over radiation is what is left to decay. The forest is still burned down, but at least it isn't still burning.


I like that idea
Scatter it in small pieces and send the TEPCO execs in to pick up the pieces.
I will donate to give them good radiation suits


But seriously the area is already toast. I would just add that the explosion needs to be designed not to launch it all into the air... Need a crack seal demolition team here



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by DancedWithWolves
Source


"Obviously, the nuclear plant is not running normally. We have to continue to ask nearby residents to remain evacuated in case the situation deteriorates.


Nuclear...plant...is....not....running.....normally.


Source

I'm sure he'd have said the same about the space shuttle Columbia after its final descent, if he'd quietly accepted millions of stocks in space-shuttle companies as bribes.

Give those in power a sufficient interest in your company and you have it made.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Destinyone
Found an obscure home made U-tube video, only 147 views....taken in Japan yesterday...hmmm...
Des


Says it was uploaded on the 11th so that would be the 7.1

11-APR-2011 08:16:13 37.01 140.48 7.1 13.1 EASTERN HONSHU, JAPAN
www.iris.edu...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by maria81 But these isotopes can of course be removed from water containing them.


Yes they can... and that is why Fukushima has a treatment plant on site just for that...

However (to quote a well used TEPCO word) that plant was full to capacity and takes TIME to clean the water before releasing it. But TEPCO just dumped 10,000 tons of the 30,000 tons capacity into the sea (containing low levels, only 500 times higher) to make room for the highly contaminated water in the buildings

So yeah they can clean it, but not that quickly or that much volume



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by Destinyone
Speaking of rods...This is one memo, I'd like to get my eyes on...


Workers also refocused their attention on spent fuel rods stored in containment pools beside the reactors that threaten to spew radiation into the air unless they are constantly covered and cooled with circulating water.

The embattled plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) hopes to eventually remove and safely encase the thousands of spent fuel rods.

As a preliminary step, it took a water sample from the pool at reactor four, using a container attached to the 62-metre arm of a concrete boom pump.

"This is to learn more about the condition of the spent fuel pool," said a TEPCO spokesman. "They will have to put the spent fuel rods into some sort of container eventually.

"Removing them from the plant's pools is one of the ultimate objectives."

The Asahi Shimbun daily, citing internal TEPCO documents, reported on a plan to lower steel caskets into the pools to seal and take away the fuel rods, perhaps using ladders because original cranes may be damaged.

www.bangkokpost.com...

Ladders



My analysis is that mention of the ladders is a sleight of hand distraction, so the lie about there being water in the cooling pool passes under the radar and gets believed. They want us to believe the pool is still capable of holding water so we'll believe the water now being pumped into the reactor to cool the core, which they had previously said had been removed, is just a refill for the cooling pool.

If they lied about reactor 4 being empty, I wonder if they'd been illegally filling it with MOX fuel.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:32 PM
link   
reply to post by zorgon
 


TY...mea culpa


Des



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:36 PM
link   
reply to post by Kailassa
 


I tend to agree here with you Kailassa. R4 has so much mystery around it. The loudest silence I've heard in a long long time. The less they say, the more they say kwim.

Des



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:37 PM
link   
On one hand we have Edano eating food grown [within 50 miles of the plant], on the other hand we have this take on the situation from Europe [THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM the plant]:


The risks associated with iodine-131 contamination in Europe are no longer "negligible," according to CRIIRAD, a French research body on radioactivity. The NGO is advising pregnant women and infants against "risky behaviour," such as consuming fresh milk or vegetables with large leaves.


More deception, lies & coverup exposed

The people of Japan deserve better than this. Just despicable. Karma is a cold bitch - those responsible will get their "due", it's only a matter of time now.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aponi
reply to post by butcherguy
 

I try very hard not to buy into possible conspiracy theories without a fairly solid foundation of facts, but I am willing to admit now that the possibility of No. 4 being used to enrich uranium for weapons or some other shady purpose is looking likelier by the day. Of course, we may very well never know the truth, but I hope the truth is less insidious than it seems now.

If they were enriching uranium, you'd expect them to be doing that in the more recent reactor, number 6.

However I wouldn't be surprised if they'd been illegally using MOX fuel in more than just reactor 3.
That would explain why they didn't shut down properly.

I was pretty sceptical of RedNeck's suggestion of illegal weapon research/manufacture at that site, but the intense secrecy and the warship escorting the barge carrying sheet-covered shapes, and viewing the topography, seeing how easily underground buildings could be part of the site, and the government's support of this secretive mishandling ....
- It all adds up to a very strange story, so I wouldn't be surprised if the explanation is equally strange.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:43 PM
link   
new one...

M 4.4, near the east coast of Honshu, Japan
36.660°N 141.783°E

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 15:54:22 UTC
Thursday, April 14, 2011 12:54:22 AM at epicenter

Depth: 40.30 km (25.04 mi)

Latest Earthquakes Worldwide and Earthquake News

Below are the latest earthquakes and earthquake news from around the world updated in real-time by RSS feeds, latest news is lower down the page below the latest quakes!

newsblogged.com...




edit on 03/28/2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aponi
Radiation surges above 4's fuel pool


Radiation has risen to high levels above the spent-fuel pool at reactor No. 4 and its temperature is rising, the nuclear safety agency said Wednesday, indicating the fuel rods have been further damaged and emitting radioactive substances.The radiation level 6 meters above the spent-fuel storage pool at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant was measured at 84 millisieverts per hour Tuesday. Normally, it's 0.1 microsievert......Tokyo Electric Power Co. was unsure whether the surge in radiation was being caused by the spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel.


Perhaps someone could explain to me why radioactive material would be leaking from a reactor that supposedly had all of its fuel rods removed in December 2010. I remember seeing reactor pressure and temperature reports for No. 4 at the beginning of this crisis and having the same question then (though I didn't post it). Am I misunderstanding something? Or is this another slip up revealing the possibility that No. 4 was not shut down like they claim? Which begs the question: What were they really doing in No. 4 and how does that affect the current situation there?


When TEPCO officials speak, they are lying.
When TEPCO officials stop speaking, it's because they don't know which lie should be told next.
When TEPCO officials bow, it's to study their cheat-sheets to find out which lies should be told next.



Doesn't that picture make you wish you were there, holding a good sharp samurai sword?
I wonder if bowing originated as the human equivalent to an animal revealing its neck to show submission?



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by jadedANDcynicalWe know that Tepco's net monkeys are watching this


doubtful - lol this forum isn't as important as you (and some others) think it is.



The U.S. has not ordered a new nuclear power plant since the 23 1970s, partially as a result of constant litigation and overly complex regulations. The Nuclear Power 2010 initiative, a partnership between industry and the U.S. government, was launched in 2002 to reduce regulatory and other barriers to the development of new nuclear power plants. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) is working to improve and streamline the regulatory process to help accelerate the construction of nuclear plants. The comprehensive energy policy also includes permanent disposal of SNF and HLW, and advanced technologies for nuclear fuel reprocessing.


this is the real problem. We are using reactors built 30 and 40 years ago instead of building NEW and IMPROVED reactors, all because of anti-nuke people and excessive regulation.

I think every reactor should be replaced with a new one, we've come a long way in 40 years.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by zorgon

He said the firm faces its biggest challenge ever and that its main obligation is to do its best to put the plant under control. Shimizu pledged efforts to help people who've had to evacuate from radiation-contaminated areas, and to address continuing power shortages. Shimizu also reiterated that the plant's Number 1 through 4 reactors must be scrapped. The plant has 6 reactors.

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 17:37 +0900 (JST)


www3.nhk.or.jp...

- In other words, TEPCO might still one day stand by its offer of $12 per person, and

- TEPCO are not planning to scrap the earthquake and salt-water damaged reactors 5 and 6.

Haven't INEPTCO destroyed enough of Japan already?




edit on 13/4/11 by Kailassa because: putting the crap back into scrap.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:56 PM
link   
post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:07 PM
link   
reply to post by bitbytebit
 


Yes, we've come long way in 40 years. It is mostly improvements in efficiency, while safety standards have remained the same. I don't know about you, but I'm not as willing to trust that a company whose first goal is to contribute to a bottom line.

Even in the industry in which I am employed (casual family dining) there are shortcuts taken in order to improve profitability. I'd like to think that those would not occur in a nuclear facility but that would be contrary to human nature.



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 01:07 PM
link   
reply to post by Kailassa
 


You see and that is the attitude that will end up biting us all in the you know where. Not willing to walk away from 5 and 6? These people have to be kidding us; that whole plant is done. It is absolutely cooked and they better smarten up and cut there loses before they add the people of Japan and the aquatic life the same.

Just the idea that they are considering salvaging 5 and 6 tells me that the "Best solutions" are not an option.

Sickening
edit on 13-4-2011 by TheRemedial because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
513
<< 688  689  690    692  693  694 >>

log in

join