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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 690.htm
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posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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Just a quick comment concerning the idea of drilling through the bedrock to remove the corium: Unless the chance of success for any plan is statistically high, it is extremely unlikely to receive more than passing investigation. Maybe it would work. Maybe it wouldn't. There are too many factors to say with certainty; and as such, TEPCO cannot justify the HUGE COST to their shareholders. Ideally, one would say there's little to lose, give it a shot. Sadly, this is not an ideal world and questionable effectiveness will not likely spur costly initiative.

If you can figure out what solution is the cheapest while being the least damaging for the company, that's the one I'd put my money on them attempting. Note: I didn't say the least damaging for the citizens of Earth or the environment. They're only a small consideration in TEPCOs management of this situation.




posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by Destinyone I believe in fairies, little people, and magic. But, I in no means, believe any of those elements are going to come to our rescue.


Nice to know
How about Dragons? They could help...but I am not going to ask them... too dangerous now

Now then

Weird Update


I say weird because Areva has told us the pool in #4 went into open air burn... but...



...according to TEPCO

Temperatures rise at No.4 spent fuel storage pool


The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, says the water temperature in the spent fuel storage pool at the No. 4 reactor in the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant has risen to about 90 degrees Celsius. It fears the spent fuel rods may be damaged.

TEPCO took the temperature on Tuesday using an extending arm on a special vehicle. It found the temperature was much higher than the normal level of under 40 degrees.

To cool the fuel, TEPCO sprayed 195 tons of water for 6 hours on Wednesday morning.

The company thinks the pool's water level was about 5 meters lower than normal, but 2 meters above the fuel rods.

TEPCO believes the water level is likely to rise by about one meter after the water spraying on Wednesday.

The company also believes temperatures rose after the loss of the reactor's cooling system.

TEPCO says high levels of radiation at 84 millisieverts per hour were detected above the water surface, where radiation is rarely detected.

The company plans to continue spraying and to analyze radioactive particles in the pool to determine whether the fuel has been damaged.

The storage pool at the No. 4 reactor has housed all the fuel rods that were in operation at the reactor due to massive engineering work there.

TEPCO has sprayed more than 1,800 tons of water on the No. 4 reactor using fire engines and special vehicles since the March 11th crisis. The company feared that fuel rods could cause evaporation of water and put workers at risk of exposure.

University of Tokyo Professor Koji Okamoto says the temperature of 90 degrees indicates that cooling is continuing, although some of the water in the pool may be boiling.

Okamoto says high radiation indicates the possibility of radiation leaks from damaged fuel, and called for the evaluation of water sampling to determine how the situation should be tackled.

The professor says that to prevent further damage to the fuel, it's important to continue cooling the pool while minimizing water leakage from it.

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 21:08 +0900 (JST)


www3.nhk.or.jp...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Found an obscure home made U-tube video, only 147 views....taken in Japan yesterday...hmmm...

www.youtube.com...

Des



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by maria81
 


Sandstone is drilled all the damn time.

If it collapses, you drill, pump/squeeze cement, let it set up, then drill the cement plug and the ground, and then do it again. You CREATE the compacted ground you need to stablize the sloughing.


My big question is WHY do you want to get the corium out?



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Noahswife
About the strawberries and tomatoes that Edano was eating. would the fact that at this time of year in Northern Japan mean they were grown in greenhouses/ under cloches and therefore they can claim they are "not" contaminated? In other words, the amount of fallout in the air in those protected environments would be lower?
Might explain why Edano wasn't munching on spinach, presumably grown in the open even in colder weather.


Yes it would make a big difference. Also depends on the water supply used. The spinach got rain directly laden with radiation, but if the greenhouse is using well water, it is likely clean if the well is deep enough. Many factors and I think the fruits don't take up as much radiation as the leaves do... I will see if I can find a study on that



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by Aponi
Radiation surges above 4's fuel pool


Radiation has risen to high levels above the spent-fuel pool at reactor No. 4 and its temperature is rising, the nuclear safety agency said Wednesday, indicating the fuel rods have been further damaged and emitting radioactive substances.The radiation level 6 meters above the spent-fuel storage pool at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant was measured at 84 millisieverts per hour Tuesday. Normally, it's 0.1 microsievert......Tokyo Electric Power Co. was unsure whether the surge in radiation was being caused by the spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel.


Perhaps someone could explain to me why radioactive material would be leaking from a reactor that supposedly had all of its fuel rods removed in December 2010.


Awesome catch! We will see how long it takes them to say that was an error by the reporter.

As if they don't have enough on their hands...they want to be the nuclear safety experts for other countries now...


Meanwhile, with the Fukushima crisis continuing, nuclear power looks likely to become a major issue at the May Group of Eight meeting in France.

At a news conference the same day, Prime Minister Naoto Kan told reporters it was up to Japan to lead the way in drafting international nuclear safety rules.

"We are causing a great deal of trouble for the world with this accident," Kan said. "For that reason alone, Japan should take on the task of creating safety standards that will prevent this kind of accident from happening again."


And, the government called...they want you to TRUST them.


Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano used his first appearance at a news conference for foreign media to quash reports that management of the Fukushima nuclear crisis had been based on false information.

"Our response to the crisis has always been based on the assumption that large amounts of radiation could escape from the plant," Edano said to foreign reporters assembled at the Prime Minister's Office on the night of April 12, the same day the nuclear accident severity for the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant was raised to Level 7 -- the highest grade possible.


Source

The day prior to this news conference for foreign media - he said this.


TOKYO (AFP) – The risk of a massive leak of radioactive materials from a crippled nuclear plant in northeast Japan is becoming "significantly smaller," the government said Monday.

"The possibility that the situation at the nuclear plant will deteriorate and lead to new leakage of massive radioactive materials is becoming significantly smaller," chief government spokesman Yukio Edano told reporters.

"Obviously, the nuclear plant is not running normally. We have to continue to ask nearby residents to remain evacuated in case the situation deteriorates.


Nuclear...plant...is....not....running.....normally.


Source



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by rbkruspe



TEPCO manager Kensuke Takeuchi told Konno and the other protesters the company was not yet prepared to give any money, but he promised to convey their demands to higher level management.


Excuse me..? NOT PREPARED?? It seems they are not really prepared for anything at all. I would love to know who this "higher management" is. If Takeuchi really gave half a crap about the people whose lives are in danger due to his nuclear reactors he would personally hand people checks with their 2 bread pieces and a ticket to get outta dodge. But no...


TEPCO to make temporary damage payments


The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is considering making temporary damage payments to residents around the plant.

President Masataka Shimizu of the Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, made this known at a news conference on Wednesday.

Shimizu said he sincerely apologizes to the residents as well as people of Fukushima Prefecture and other areas for the tremendous trouble and worries caused by the serious accident involving leakage of radioactive materials.

He said TEPCO is consulting the government to prepare to address the issue of compensating local residents, based on a law for nuclear damage compensation.
Shimizu also said TEPCO is in the final stages of creating a roadmap to stabilize the power plant and that the firm hopes to announce measures to do so quickly. He said he's well aware that Prime Minister Naoto Kan said at a news conference on Tuesday that he instructed the firm to come up with such a roadmap.

Shimizu said he will resign as vice chairman of the Japan Business Federation, or Nippon Keidanren, and as chairman of the Federation of Electric Power Companies of Japan, to take responsibility for the accident. But he said he will remain TEPCO's president for the time being.

He said the firm faces its biggest challenge ever and that its main obligation is to do its best to put the plant under control. Shimizu pledged efforts to help people who've had to evacuate from radiation-contaminated areas, and to address continuing power shortages. Shimizu also reiterated that the plant's Number 1 through 4 reactors must be scrapped. The plant has 6 reactors.

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 17:37 +0900 (JST)


www3.nhk.or.jp...

...'is considering making temporary damage payments"

Considering? Really?


..."is consulting the government to prepare to address the issue of compensating local residents"

Consulting to prepare to address the situation? Holy crap and I thought our politicians where expert at talking and saying nothing

:shk:

And they are just NOW making a 'roadmap' on what they plan to do because Kan told them too?

Gadzooks!!! This is worse than a B movie



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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Hello RedNeck,

some pages back you said something about neutron enriched water not being able to be purified from the neutrons.
as far as I understand the physics behind the process, you meant Deuterium and Tritium. But these isotopes can of course be removed from water containing them. Just look inside heavy water production, in which heavy water is filtered from normal water containing Deuterium. If you want pure H2O, just filter the D and T out and the remaining water is pure.
The bruce plant in Canada produces 700 metric tons of heavy water, which - given the normal Deuterium content of unprocessed water - would somehow imply some 600.000 tons of pure water produced as "waste".

link



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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Is this idea I had any more plausible today than it was "crazy" when I originally posted?



Originally posted by TheRemedial
reply to post by lasertaglover
 


Vacuum Bomb the plants... Infact I would bunker bust them then Vacuum bomb them, then again and if need be...again.




edit on 29-3-2011 by TheRemedial because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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From the Ashahi Shimbun
www.asahi.com...



Ever since the earthquake, (Prime Minister) Kan had remained at his office and did not return to his living quarters, working almost around the clock. From about that time, Kan began taking on more work, telling his aides, "Bring all information to me. I will make the decision" and "I will contact that individual directly." That led to a situation described by one high-ranking industry ministry official of "not releasing any information before it was first submitted to the Prime Minister's Official Residence." There was the possibility that such an arrangement affected cooperation among the central government ministries.



My comment on this would strongly go against ATS' Rules for polite discussions
So I just say Bleeebing bleeping bleep!



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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Much discussion has gone on about the destroyer escorted barge and what it may have been up to. Is it possible it was just removing new fuel cores? Just how well protected are these from the bombardment that must be occurring give the number of uncontrolled criticalities in the area?

Perhaps the MOX fuel is especially at risk. If so what do you think they did with them? It would be nice if someone with expertise could address the type of storage these are likely to be in and if it is possible that they would be at risk.

I can’t imagine that the storage design was built with the present environment in mind as the greedy execs would have decided this will never happen so save some $ by building them to a lower standard.

edit on 13-4-2011 by ChessGuru because: typo



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by Aponi
Just a quick comment concerning the idea of drilling through the bedrock to remove the corium: Unless the chance of success for any plan is statistically high, it is extremely unlikely to receive more than passing investigation. Maybe it would work. Maybe it wouldn't. There are too many factors to say with certainty; and as such, TEPCO cannot justify the HUGE COST to their shareholders. Ideally, one would say there's little to lose, give it a shot. Sadly, this is not an ideal world and questionable effectiveness will not likely spur costly initiative.

If you can figure out what solution is the cheapest while being the least damaging for the company, that's the one I'd put my money on them attempting. Note: I didn't say the least damaging for the citizens of Earth or the environment. They're only a small consideration in TEPCOs management of this situation.


well, I thought it would be a very nice way to keep face...
imagine, TEPCO could announce something like "we caught the corium on the loose... not like the russians who had to entomb it. Situation is under full control."

I believe it would really be a near complete rehabilitation.
Unfortunately, it would also signify that even a core melting "is not so bad, after all, you can catch it again." which would lead to more lax security measures.

So, I don't know what to hope for...



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by maria81
 


I'll let the physics do the arguing.

Corium.
Corium at 2400 - 2800 degrees Celsius (but actually temperature unknown)
Instant lethality, no safe exposure.

I'm all for creative ideas and solving things, heck, that's what I do for a living. I also know that when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. I appreciate your enthusiasm to do something. I simply don't get why you want to get it out of the rock. I would think that cooling it in place, trying sand or silica polymers to try to get it to form a mass would be more desirable.Taking measures to try to contain the leaks into the water table with sealants etc may be difficult but worth investigating. Anything that we do now we will have to keep doing for generations and generations and generations.

I'm presenting the facts to you. If you want to argue with the makers of the laws of physics then you have a beef with the creator, not me. If you want another opinion, check out Redneck's posts. He's our resident nuke wizard and there are several others who you might find less hysterical than me
. I do find the idea of me being hysterical extremely amusing as it's completely contrary to how I perceive myself, I'm sure many people who know me would like to see that just for once


Corium - Wiki
edit on 13-4-2011 by Wertwog because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
Speaking of rods...This is one memo, I'd like to get my eyes on...


..."hopes to eventually remove..."

..."As a preliminary step, it took a water sample...

.."This is to learn more about the condition of the spent fuel pool,"

..."They will have to put the spent fuel rods into some sort of container eventually."

.."is one of the ultimate objectives."

Hopes to, preliminary, eventually.... it's been a MONTH wehan are they going to DO something other that think about it?

..."perhaps using ladders because original cranes may be damaged."

AH so they will be using Liquidators after all




posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Aponi
Radiation surges above 4's fuel pool


Tokyo Electric Power Co. was unsurewhether the surge in radiation was being caused by the spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel.


UNSURE? How the hell could they be UNSURE?

Nice catch I missed that one



edit on 13-4-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by Destinyone


Well at least MSM has perked up their ears now finally



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Curio
Does anybody else feel their bile rise when those annoying little mouth-pieces emerge onto the stage. They're like Oompa Loompas only even more annoying


yeah and what really irks me is that no one in the Japanese press is asking QUESTIONS Is it not allowed to ask questions at Japanese press releases? or are they just not showing them?



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:58 AM
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hiya,
this is a very sad video... its a CNN interview with the two brave journalists who released their own films about going into the restricted zone.




posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
This is the first I've heard if this. If true, how awful for all those poor people who thought they were fleeing to safety


There are several youtube videos dealing with that showing how the safe buildings turned deadly. No one to blame really. The professor who designated a lot of that was grief stricken in the interviews... but that was many pages back



posted on Apr, 13 2011 @ 12:00 PM
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Alrighty then, looks like nothing seriously earth shattering has occurred whilst I slept. Thanks go to all for the updates and possible solutions presented, no matter the feasibility. We know that Tepco's net monkeys are watching this and it is remotely possible that some sense might just rub off on them; it's a probability that's so slim as to be almost nil, but it is non-zero.

Been looking around a bit more for information that would help add to the breadth and depth of knowledge that's already been presented and have found a study that contains an immense amount of information on nuclear contamination in the environment and has, among other things, information on Spent Nuclear Fuel (SNF) titled "Anthropogenic radionuclides in the environment" published by the Lawernce Livermore National Laboratory which can be found here.

Among other things it states the following:

About 25–30 t of SNF are created per year per GWe (gigawatt electricity). Thus, about 12,000 t of SNF are produced based on the world’s current nuclear energy capacity (Macfarlane and Miller, 2007)


And that was from a study published 4 years ago. How much has that amount increased each year since then?

This is frightening, at least to me:

In 2000, the USA’s SNF inventory was about 42,300 tHM, with a total radioactivity of 1.2×10^9 TBq (Figure 1), increasing by slightly less than 2,000 tHM every year. Since the mid-1940s, SNF and HLW have accumulated throughout the USA. Currently, SNF and HLW are stored at some 125 sites in 39 states, with over 161 million people residing within 121 km of temporarily stored nuclear waste. By the year 2020, the inventory will be about 77,100 tHM with an activity of 1.3×10^9 TBq; the currently legislated capacity for the potential high-level waste repository at Yucca Mountain is 70,000 t of SNF 15 equivalent.


We're piling it up like crazy!

[sarcasm]
Oh, this just makes me feel all warm and cozy:
[/sarcasm]

The U.S. has not ordered a new nuclear power plant since the 23 1970s, partially as a result of constant litigation and overly complex regulations. The Nuclear Power 2010 initiative, a partnership between industry and the U.S. government, was launched in 2002 to reduce regulatory and other barriers to the development of new nuclear power plants. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) is working to improve and streamline the regulatory process to help accelerate the construction of nuclear plants. The comprehensive energy policy also includes permanent disposal of SNF and HLW, and advanced technologies for nuclear fuel reprocessing.


emphasis mine

See, now this just really makes my skin crawl. It's only a county over and is, I think, the project in which Tepco had initially a 10% stake in:

As recent as September 26, 2007, NRG Energy, Inc of New Jersey and the South Texas Project Nuclear Operating Company filed an application to build and operate two new nuclear power reactors at the South Texas Project nuclear power station site in Matagorda County (Scientific America, 2007)


Not only is the environment being contaminated, it's got the blessing of TPTB:

Radionuclides have been discharged, with government authorization, over the past forty years into the sea and atmosphere from the nuclear fuel reprocessing plants at Sellafield and at La Hague


What follows is a fairly detailed and complex amount of information regarding what and how much is released.

Continually!

There it is OUT IN THE OPEN and not under the veil of a conspiracy!


How can anyone think that our leaders, who are supposed to protect and keep safe the people of the world, have our best interests in mind?

I can't read any more after that.

There's a LOT of information in that report and anyone who has any interest in this subject would be well advised to add this to their reading list.



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