Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake, page 6

reply to post by Bicent76

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Especially in a country that is no stranger to radioactivity, truly a sad situation and I imagine very scary for people exposed to such things before.

reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator

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Thanks EnhancedInterrogator!

That helps put things in perspective.

Peace.

reply to post by Hessling

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Here's scary quote from the article ...

When the earthquake hit the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa nuclear power plant, four reactors shut down automatically. Water containing radioactive material was released into the sea, but without an adverse effect on human health or the environment, it said.

Not sure how you can have "radioactive material was released into the sea" and yet "without an adverse effect on human health or the environment". Maybe you click your heels three times and say "there's no place like home." over and over again - or something like that.

Note: Emphasis added in quote by poster (i.e. me)

Originally posted by EnhancedInterrogator
I don't think this is posted already ...
.. it's from the Union of Concerned Scientists

Nuclear Crisis in Japan: What We Know

Bloomberg News reported that the battery life for the RCIC system is eight hours. This means that the batteries would have been depleted before 10 a.m. EST today. It is unclear if this report is accurate, since it suggests that several hours have elapsed without any core cooling. Bloomberg also reported that Japan had secured six backup batteries and planned to transport them to the site, possibly by military helicopter. It is unclear how long this operation would take.

Note-1: Emphasis in quote added by poster (i.e me)
Note-2: Don't confuse them with the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists (the "doomsday clock" people)

edit on 2011-3-11 by EnhancedInterrogator because: sepellings and grahmers.

I can’t believe the officials could make those statements with a straight face. You don’t haul batteries in when the generators fail. You get more freaking generators.

The only questions should be.

How much capacity do you need?
What voltages do you need?
1 or 3 Phase?
Is it a single bulk load, or multiple smaller loads that can be ran separately?
If it is, then what is the size/voltage breakdown of the loads.
And last, but not least, do you want them delivered by air, or by truck?

Nothing more nothing less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It isn’t rocket science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if all the rest of the equipment is smashed, all I need to know is what voltage, AC/DC 1P/3P does the cooling pumps run off of!!!!! Hook those straight to a new generator and be done with it!!!!!!!!!!

If they are not air lifting equipment in, then evidently they don’t need it! I am pretty sure that all the head engineer would have to do is utter the word, and there would be cargo helicopters hitting the sky with equipment. So, I am not buying this “it’s about to blow” crap, right now.

All in all…….. I am starting to think that the situation is perfectly fine, but the anti nuke crowd is stirring the pot with crap to try and get everyone worked up over a non event. They have done it before, and they will probably do it again. As they say, the lie is half way around the world before the truth gets it’s pants on.

Originally posted by EnhancedInterrogator
reply to post by Hessling

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Here's scary quote from the article ...

When the earthquake hit the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa nuclear power plant, four reactors shut down automatically. Water containing radioactive material was released into the sea, but without an adverse effect on human health or the environment, it said.

Not sure how you can have "radioactive material was released into the sea" and yet "without an adverse effect on human health or the environment". Maybe you click your heels three times and say "there's no place like home." over and over again - or something like that.

Note: Emphasis added in quote by poster (i.e. me)

edit on 2011-3-11 by EnhancedInterrogator because: (no reason given)

edit on 2011-3-11 by EnhancedInterrogator because: fixt formatten, spelings and garahara.

Wow!

No adverse effect, eh?

That has to be among the stupidest MSM quotes I've ever heard. You might be right about the ruby slippers.

Thanks for the update.

reply to post by Hessling

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Yeah, you've heard about "The Chewbacca Defense"?

This is the "Ruby Slipper's Method" of information disclosure. Just say the way you want to be true!

reply to post by Hessling

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If it has a radiation level of 10mR/hour, or even a 50mR/hour, then NO it won’t hurt you!!!!! It is classified as radioactive material, but it isn’t radioactive enough to worry about. There is several places/things in the US, and overseas, that have natural radiation levels far higher than needed to put them in the “contaminated” or “medium level radioactive material” range. You don’t die on the spot when you go to those places, and you won’t die when you are exposed to water with a radiation level of 10mR/hour.

Radiation is all around us, all around the world, it is the dose that makes the poison.

reply to post by Mr Tranny

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Mr Tranny,

I understand where you are coming from and I'm sure your stats are spot on.

However, leaks from a nuclear power plant simply strike me as serious. VERY serious!

I'm no fear-monger, and am most certainly not a Nuclear Engineer, but I'm simply not buying the reports of "no harm" to humans. With that in mind, I truly hope I'm wrong.

Peace.

Two more press releases just now from Tepco, this time about the "other" Fukushima nuclear plant ("Fukushima Daini", or "Fukushima II").

Basically, they both say the same thing, repeated about reactor's #1 and #2 (of four reactors) at the "Fukushima Daini" plant ...

Occurrence of a Specific Incident Stipulated in Article 15, Clause 1 of the Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness (Unit 1)

Occurrence of a Specific Incident Stipulated in Article 15, Clause 1 of the Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness (Unit 2)

Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System was used to inject water into the reactor to cool it. Today at 3:48AM, water injection by Make-up Water Condensate System begun.

Subsequently, at 5:22AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100 degrees.

As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 5:22AM, it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 has occurred.

Safety and Impact to the Environment
- Currently, water level to cool irradiated fuels in the reactor is maintained.
- Indication of monitoring posts installed in the site boundary is not different from normal. Currently, no radiation impact to the external environment has been confirmed.

So, it sounds like both Fukushima locations are impacted in some way after-all. In addition to that, based on some previous posts, there are plants in other locations (undisclosed?) as well (trying to find links that specify exactly which ones).

Note: Emphasis added to quotes by poster (i.e. me).


UPDATE: Looks like 3 reactors at "Fukushima Daini" (aka "Fukushima II") are effected ... #1, #2 and #4 ...
Occurrence of a Specific Incident Stipulated in Article 15, Clause 1 of the Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness (Unit 4)

So, for Tepco, that would be five reactors at two plants in Fukushima:
Two (of six) at "Fukushima Daiichi", (aka "Fukushima I").
Three (of four) at "Fukushima Daini" (aka "Fukushima II").

I guess if the Three Mile Island incident taught us anything it is that this isn't imminent(as in the next few hours). Even if the coolant cannot be brought back to normal levels and is exhausted there are possibly a number of days maybe even a week before any major catastrophe may occur. There are plenty of different layers and levels of shielding that should take a while to get through.

And I guess one positive is that it would be reversable as long as they can get the coolant flowing again, so there is some time to spare.
This I guess is not withstanding some other major unforseen incident that may occur.
I'm not trying to undermine the situation as it's very serious, but we will know more as time goes on.

reply to post by Mr Tranny

My first job out of high school was in a nuclear power plant. You don't just go grab a new diesel generator. The ones we had were about 100 feet long, weighed many many tons, and had pistons that literally took huge cranes to install. They are installed in place in sections.

The exhaust where I worked was a 36" steel pipe fed through two mufflers ("exhaust silencers") which were themselves water-cooled and were housed in two massive rooms. I was one of the engineering aides working on the cooling lines for them at one time. They are the size of a mobile home.

A nuclear power plant works backwards to what most people think. The thing is always "on" and takes energy to turn it "off". The control rods have to be inserted into the reactor core to slow the nuclear reactions, and this has to be accomplished via an electric crane. No human can survive inside the reactor chamber to do it manually.

It works like this: fuel inside the reactor is always hot, always trying to split atoms which produce more neutrons to split more atoms. The control rods contain material that intercepts the neutrons and slows the reactions. Inserting the rods slows the reaction speed; removing them speeds the reaction up. The only way fuel can be used in this way is for it to be shipped in smaller separate containers so the mass of each container is much less than the critical mass at which the reaction is self-supporting. This all occurs in the inner section of the reactor buildings and is cooled by a self-contained water system so the system doesn't "melt down", i.e. the machinery doesn't freeze up and become inoperative from too much heat. Since it is self-contained, there is no way under normal conditions for any radioactive emissions to exit the reactor chamber (which incidentally is an 8-foot-thick wall of reinforced high-density concrete). This cooling loop runs into a heat exchanger that transfers the heat into a secondary self-contained loop which runs to the generators. Finally, the secondary cooling water runs through another heat exchanger that uses an outside water source to cool it back down. The amount of radiation that can seep through both heat exchangers is minuscule, so there is no appreciable contamination to the surrounding environment.

The amount of energy transferred through this system is incredible, as are the temperatures produced. Both self-contained cooling loops are pressurized so they do not steam, and we are talking about 60" schedule 120 pipe throughout.

If the generators fail (we had two back-up generators, one for each reactor, each capable of powering either reactor in case of emergency), the only way to insert the control rods and continue to cool the reactor is using batteries. If they are flying in replacement batteries, this is a very bad indicator that they are indeed having trouble completing the emergency shutdown protocol and could experience a meltdown.

For those who have asked what a melt down is, it is when the reactor itself becomes so hot that it literally melts the surrounding chamber and supporting soil, contaminating groundwater and releasing radiation. It is physically impossible for a nuclear reactor ro explode like an atomic bomb; it's just not made that way. But it is possible for it to run so hot that the building around it and the ground it sits on literally melts. And remember, without anything to slow it down, the fuel will continue to produce heat and radiation until it is exhausted.

Here's hoping they get these things cooled down.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

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Fascinating read what a boat load of info thanks much!!

reply to post by TheRedneck

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Excellent post!
Although, the idea of a nuclear power-plant being operated by a self-declared "red-neck" is also a scary image.

Update 7:51: At least 20,000 people are being evacuated from the region says Reuters, which ominously quotes an expert who thinks there may be just a few hours until meltdown.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Mr Tranny

My first job out of high school was in a nuclear power plant. You don't just go grab a new diesel generator. The ones we had were about 100 feet long, weighed many many tons, and had pistons that literally took huge cranes to install. They are installed in place in sections.

The exhaust where I worked was a 36" steel pipe fed through two mufflers ("exhaust silencers") which were themselves water-cooled and were housed in two massive rooms. I was one of the engineering aides working on the cooling lines for them at one time. They are the size of a mobile home.

A nuclear power plant works backwards to what most people think. The thing is always "on" and takes energy to turn it "off". The control rods have to be inserted into the reactor core to slow the nuclear reactions, and this has to be accomplished via an electric crane. No human can survive inside the reactor chamber to do it manually.

It works like this: fuel inside the reactor is always hot, always trying to split atoms which produce more neutrons to split more atoms. The control rods contain material that intercepts the neutrons and slows the reactions. Inserting the rods slows the reaction speed; removing them speeds the reaction up. The only way fuel can be used in this way is for it to be shipped in smaller separate containers so the mass of each container is much less than the critical mass at which the reaction is self-supporting. This all occurs in the inner section of the reactor buildings and is cooled by a self-contained water system so the system doesn't "melt down", i.e. the machinery doesn't freeze up and become inoperative from too much heat. Since it is self-contained, there is no way under normal conditions for any radioactive emissions to exit the reactor chamber (which incidentally is an 8-foot-thick wall of reinforced high-density concrete). This cooling loop runs into a heat exchanger that transfers the heat into a secondary self-contained loop which runs to the generators. Finally, the secondary cooling water runs through another heat exchanger that uses an outside water source to cool it back down. The amount of radiation that can seep through both heat exchangers is minuscule, so there is no appreciable contamination to the surrounding environment.

The amount of energy transferred through this system is incredible, as are the temperatures produced. Both self-contained cooling loops are pressurized so they do not steam, and we are talking about 60" schedule 120 pipe throughout.

If the generators fail (we had two back-up generators, one for each reactor, each capable of powering either reactor in case of emergency), the only way to insert the control rods and continue to cool the reactor is using batteries. If they are flying in replacement batteries, this is a very bad indicator that they are indeed having trouble completing the emergency shutdown protocol and could experience a meltdown.

For those who have asked what a melt down is, it is when the reactor itself becomes so hot that it literally melts the surrounding chamber and supporting soil, contaminating groundwater and releasing radiation. It is physically impossible for a nuclear reactor ro explode like an atomic bomb; it's just not made that way. But it is possible for it to run so hot that the building around it and the ground it sits on literally melts. And remember, without anything to slow it down, the fuel will continue to produce heat and radiation until it is exhausted.

Here's hoping they get these things cooled down.

TheRedneck

Homer?...Is that you?

reply to post by jude11

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For convenience, here's a direct link to the Reuters article that site references ...

Snap analysis: Japan may have hours to prevent nuclear meltdown

Here's a small snippet:

(Reuters) - Japanese officials may only have hours to cool reactors that have been disabled by Friday's massive earthquake and tsunami or face a nuclear meltdown.

TEPCO also said it has lost ability to control pressure at some of the reactors at its Daini plant nearby.

Originally posted by EnhancedInterrogator
reply to post by jude11

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For convenience, here's a direct link to the Reuters article that site references ...

Snap analysis: Japan may have hours to prevent nuclear meltdown

Here's a small snippet:

(Reuters) - Japanese officials may only have hours to cool reactors that have been disabled by Friday's massive earthquake and tsunami or face a nuclear meltdown.

TEPCO also said it has lost ability to control pressure at some of the reactors at its Daini plant nearby.

Thanx for the added info...

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