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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by SDoradus
Fairewinds update

Latest update summary, Reactor one is periodically going critical and burning uranium.

edit on 3-4-2011 by SDoradus because: reactor one


bad...bad....BAD....ripples become waves now....

Des


If I understood him correctly he is saying that the seawater was actually restarting the criticality in this reactor. Also he mentioned the presence of Chlorine-38 which can only be present if there is a chain-reaction. TEPCO in their desperation to cool the reactor has restarted criticality, sorry, the incompetence is overwhelming. I know Redneck was talking about this several pages back but looks like other folks are starting to see this now... yay ATS!


You are missing something, a few somethings actually;
1> The reactor is damaged from the earthquake and explosions.
2> The cooling system quit allowing the reactor to boil dry and burn the fuel rods.
3> YOU MUST put water in the reactor to cool it. If you don't the reactor heats up and you have a worse mess.
4> They aren't incompetent. All they had was sea water, they switched to fresh water when they could I'm sure they are flushing boron into the reactor with the water.
5> Water doesn't actually start the chain fission reaction. You use water in a reactor for three main things; Heat transfer, radiation shielding and neutron moderator ( i.e. slowing the neutrons down so that they can split nearby uranium otherwise the neutrons just whiz right out of the reactor and don't split anything.)

You can't NOT put water into the reactor. Somehow you have to stop the neutrons, they are subject to the inverse squared law like everything else. If massive boron in the water doesn't help we may have to send in a stick of dynamite. I would be nice to see what is actually broken in the reactor, is it a control rod? Is it a puddle of uranium oxide on the floor, exactly what is going on so we can get in there and separate the uranium into non-critical piles.




posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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edit on 03/28/2011 by Destinyone because: replied to wrong post...mea culpa...



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:41 PM
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Good evening people.
Not sure if these photos' have been posted on the thread as it is so long. If not, they may be of some use to the sharp-eyed amongst you as they are very clear. They start around 20th March. There is another link with some others taken 1st April. I will post them up next.

www.uniquescoop.com...


www.chrismartenson.com...




edit on 3-4-2011 by scotland48 because: Adding another link.

edit on 3-4-2011 by scotland48 because: fixing dead link



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by SDoradus
 


Did you watch the video? He is saying that seawater is restarting the criticality because of the salt and because it has not been modulated by an neutron dampener, such as boron.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by Wertwog
reply to post by SDoradus
 


Did you watch the video? He is saying that seawater is restarting the criticality because of the salt and because it has not been modulated by an neutron dampener, such as boron.


Pretty ugly catch-22 eh...

Des



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by SDoradus

Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by SDoradus
Fairewinds update

Latest update summary, Reactor one is periodically going critical and burning uranium.

edit on 3-4-2011 by SDoradus because: reactor one


bad...bad....BAD....ripples become waves now....

Des

I would be nice to see what is actually broken in the reactor, is it a control rod? Is it a puddle of uranium oxide on the floor, exactly what is going on so we can get in there and separate the uranium into non-critical piles.


If it is on the floor it wouldn't be in the reactor
If it is a puddle it will be a puddle of corium going critical on and off it is burning through the RPV or the concrete floor, or has burned through the floor and is on it's way to China, fun hey! Also, there is no way to get close an take a look unless you want someone to die instantly. So, how do you propose to separate a 2,200 - 5,000c critical mass of corium into non-critical piles? I think some ideas would be welcome... I'm thinking that if it is leaking into several cracks in the bedrock perhaps this may be separating the puddles, but without more info almost impossible to know.
edit on 3-4-2011 by Wertwog because: fixed the quote marks



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by ThaLoccster

Originally posted by makeitso
Tepco released an image of the water flowing thru the crack.


edit on 4/3/11 by makeitso because: (no reason given)


Did anyone notice the caption in this photo? Seems odd to me, maybe it's a typo....


a new setback as frustrated survivors of the disasters complained that Japan's government was paying too much attention to the nuclear crisis


Maybe they mean wasn't?

But assuming they do mean what the quote says, how can you pay too much attention? I think this should be treated with the utmost urgency I couldn't imagine anyone in Japan thinking otherwise.

Imagine the plight of the survivors, who are still crowded into unheated shelters in freezing weather, with no possessions, lacking any heating, electricity or reliable food and water supplies, and not having access to the information we have here. And many of them will be wondering about friends and family who may be dead.

When you're cold, hungry, frightened and no-one seems to give a damn, and you only hear the propaganda stories about the plants, of course you're going to think you need looking after more than the reactors do.



I'll never forget a video I saw some years back of a Japanese city, the day after the huge earthquake there.
Clean, suited businessmen were carefully making their way along a rubble-strewn street, apparently oblivious to the cries and whimpers coming from the mounds of rubble, which used to be houses, they were walking past.
The Japanese culture is not kind to those who can't take care of themselves. The way of life is regimented by duty, and your duty is to your employer, to your country, and then to your family. Other people, other families, have no place in this scheme of duty unless there is reason for them to have a personal claim on you.

Of course the Japanese will be saddened by the fact so many are left destitute, - and they will be hoping it will be someone's duty to do something about it. But for most of them, it's not their duty/proper role to interfere.


I believe the emperor was trying to shake people out of this concept of only doing their duty when he went beyond his duty/proper role and gave food from his own gardens to a group of survivors.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 04:57 PM
link   
reply to post by JustMike
 


Oh boy, thank you for the links.
Many, Many, Many thanks!!!!
The Commissioners -2-
However, a significant finding of the final report is that it is not feasible to define a generic
decay heat level (and therefore decay time) beyond which a zirconium fire is not physically
possible. This is because the geometry of the fuel assemblies, and the air cooling flow paths,
cannot be known following major dynamic events which can drain the water from the spent fuel
pool. As a result, the study finds that the possibility for a zirconium fire leading to a large fission
product release cannot be generically eliminated even many years after final shutdown.
This finding is important because the elimination of a zirconium fire was the established basis
for exemptions from Price-Anderson insurance requirements, and was an important
consideration in staff decisions related to emergency preparedness requirements. This finding
also affects the safeguards area. The staff has begun to re-examine the affected regulations,
regulatory guidance, and exemptions and, for EP, will work in consultation with the Federal
Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). The staff will provide a policy options paper for
Commission consideration in May 2001 addressing each area. Regulatory actions which could
be affected by policy decisions will be held until Commission direction is received.
Based upon a review of current conditions at all potentially affected facilities, the staff believes
that there is no immediate safety concern and therefore, no need for immediate regulatory
action. This is because of the low likelihood of a fuel uncovery event that could result in a
significant off-site radiological release.
The staff will use the technical study insights in conjunction with Commission policy guidance to
develop a decommissioning rulemaking plan and will provide a schedule for the completion of
the rulemaking plan 60 days following receipt of Commission direction regarding the May policy
options paper.
The staff intends to make this study publicly available 10 days from the date of this paper
unless otherwise directed by the Commission.
Attachment:
Final Technical Study on Spent Fuel Pool Accident Risk
at Decommissioning Nuclear Power Plants

Who is insuring the Tepco plant?



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by SDoradus

Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by SDoradus
Fairewinds update

Latest update summary, Reactor one is periodically going critical and burning uranium.

edit on 3-4-2011 by SDoradus because: reactor one


bad...bad....BAD....ripples become waves now....

Des


If I understood him correctly he is saying that the seawater was actually restarting the criticality in this reactor. Also he mentioned the presence of Chlorine-38 which can only be present if there is a chain-reaction. TEPCO in their desperation to cool the reactor has restarted criticality, sorry, the incompetence is overwhelming. I know Redneck was talking about this several pages back but looks like other folks are starting to see this now... yay ATS!


You are missing something, a few somethings actually;
1> The reactor is damaged from the earthquake and explosions.
2> The cooling system quit allowing the reactor to boil dry and burn the fuel rods.
3> YOU MUST put water in the reactor to cool it. If you don't the reactor heats up and you have a worse mess.
4> They aren't incompetent. All they had was sea water, they switched to fresh water when they could I'm sure they are flushing boron into the reactor with the water.
5> Water doesn't actually start the chain fission reaction. You use water in a reactor for three main things; Heat transfer, radiation shielding and neutron moderator ( i.e. slowing the neutrons down so that they can split nearby uranium otherwise the neutrons just whiz right out of the reactor and don't split anything.)

You can't NOT put water into the reactor. Somehow you have to stop the neutrons, they are subject to the inverse squared law like everything else. If massive boron in the water doesn't help we may have to send in a stick of dynamite. I would be nice to see what is actually broken in the reactor, is it a control rod? Is it a puddle of uranium oxide on the floor, exactly what is going on so we can get in there and separate the uranium into non-critical piles.


Information that supports the incompetency from early on - or pride = to incompetency..

Remember this ooops?


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said following the quake that the US had leapt into action. "We just had our Air Force assets in Japan transport some really important coolant to one of the nuclear plants," Clinton said at a meeting of the President's Export Council. "You know Japan is very reliant on nuclear power and they have very high engineering standards but one of their plants came under a lot of stress with the earthquake and didn't have enough coolant," Clinton said.


source

Followed by this?



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military did not provide any coolant for a Japanese nuclear plant affected by a massive earthquake on Friday, U.S. officials said.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton earlier had said that U.S. Air Force "assets" had delivered "some really important coolant" to a Japanese nuclear power plant.

One U.S. official said he believed Clinton was told Japan had requested the material, that the United States had agreed to provide it, and that an operation to do so was under way.

Ultimately, however, Japan did not need assistance from the United States but Clinton did not appear to have been updated before she made her public remarks.

"We understand that ultimately the Japanese government handled the situation on its own," said another U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.


Source

Help was shunned. That is prideful incompetence. Maybe if they had reached out to the international community early on...and kept the diesel generators filled...we would not be looking at 50 to life for these control rods to cool. Very sad.
edit on 3-4-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by SDoradus
 

If the workers don't see this video or work out what chlorine 38 means then they will go in to reactor 1 without their meters and investigate. Maybe even shovel up some melted mess or weld a crack or two.
£5000 a day.....mmmm no thanks!.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by makeitso

Originally posted by makeitso
Here is the Kyodo News article about the leak, with 4 images.


Pit in No.2 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant
Handout photo shows the mouth of a pit (indicated by arrow) in the No.2 reactor at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture on April 2, 2011. Water with high levels of radiation has been confirmed to have seeped into the sea from a crack (not related to a crack on the ground surface in the picture) detected at the pit. (Photo courtesy of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency)(Kyodo)

Found what appears to be the originals images @ a link in

meti.go.jp/press/2011/04/20110403002/20110403002.html

(Reference Photo) Statistics Unit leak 2 (PDF format: 476KB

The top two pictures are of outlets, where water from the complex flows into the ocean.

The bottom two are openings to underground tunnels for the electricity cables to run through.

Neither are related to the "leak".



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


Wertwog, we also haven't established, if salt water, is being reintroduced to the bottom of breached reactors, through breaches in the bedrock, via tidal action. IF, that turns out to be true....


Des



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by SDoradus

Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by SDoradus
Fairewinds update

Latest update summary, Reactor one is periodically going critical and burning uranium.

edit on 3-4-2011 by SDoradus because: reactor one


bad...bad....BAD....ripples become waves now....

Des

I would be nice to see what is actually broken in the reactor, is it a control rod? Is it a puddle of uranium oxide on the floor, exactly what is going on so we can get in there and separate the uranium into non-critical piles.


If it is on the floor it wouldn't be in the reactor
If it is a puddle it will be a puddle of corium going critical on and off it is burning through the RPV or the concrete floor, or has burned through the floor and is on it's way to China, fun hey! Also, there is no way to get close an take a look unless you want someone to die instantly. So, how do you propose to separate a 2,200 - 5,000c critical mass of corium into non-critical piles? I think some ideas would be welcome... I'm thinking that if it is leaking into several cracks in the bedrock perhaps this may be separating the puddles, but without more info almost impossible to know.
edit on 3-4-2011 by Wertwog because: fixed the quote marks


I've thought about this some more, another property water has, besides slowing neutrons down, is that is reflects neutrons. So if you have a sub-critical mass of uranium, say in puddle, most of the neutrons are escaping upwards. But when you put it underwater you reflect just enough neutrons back down on it to make it go critical.

Pretty basic reactor science.

Anyway, if you can't bury it in boron sand then we have to separate the critical mass. Explosively if necessary.

Send in a robot obviously. If we can put sat's in orbit around Jupiter in that harsh rad environment we can certainly send a crawly down a rabbit hole into the reactor to take a peek.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by Wertwog
 


Wertwog, we also haven't established, if salt water, is being reintroduced to the bottom of breached reactors, through breaches in the bedrock, via tidal action. IF, that turns out to be true....


Des


Exactly. More info needed... desperately. Also, just adding, I'm trying to explain what Prof Gunderson in the Fairwinds video discussed. He (not me) is saying that by putting non-boronated SALT seawater on the mass they are creating criticality. If you have an issue with that I suggest you WATCH the video and send him a message, otherwise I'm just trying to defend his position and that's not my expertise

edit on 3-4-2011 by Wertwog because: added another thought



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by rbrtj
reply to post by Regenstorm
 



apnews.excite.com...

I see two different pits

apnews.excite.com...
I see one pit from each news service, not together like a before after shot either.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:09 PM
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Years ago, back when the plans were being drawn for the Mark 1 reactor, there was an obsession in the scientific community to master the uses for this great new marvel. Lots of mistakes were made, and the scientist who played with these designs were very brazen in their experimentation. The most daring experiements were in the application of atomic power in aircraft and ultimately spacecraft.

One of the nicest designs was proposed by an American, who eventually died in obscurity. Most of his research is gone, and I know that there were attempts to undersand his work after his death without much success. What originated as yet another atomic ram engine design came a completely radical concept for a decay reactor.

Essentially, by linking two independant reactions, one with standard compressed uranum, and the other with plutonium, an asymetrical decay state would be created. In this state plutonium is rapidly consumed and produces tremdous amounts of energy as both reactions try to reach a common point equilibrium. It was never constructed, but the basis of the design holds a lot of similarities to what is going on in Fukashima. This was one of thousands of possible arrangements for a unified fission reaction in a plasma state.

There are only a handful of people in this world who know what is actually going on in those reactors, the rest are just lemming scientist, who tote the party line.

I suppose the only good thing to come from this will be the likely contamination of other active reactors as time goes on. The production of an atmospheric dispersion senario as proposed by the French, is evidence of their lack of understanding of all of the variable that are involved. Airborn reactive elements are only a very minute portion of these reactions. There are quantum bursts that flow through the densest alloys and miles of rock with virtually no impediment.

This train wreck needs to stop.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


Fairwinds has a sterling reputaion in my book.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by arufon

Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by DancedWithWolves
 

How right you are. No apology needed. We are on the same page.

Tepco is in the Nuclear Reactor Business. How could they not be prepared with the basics for workers. It's not like the crisis is all over Japan, yet.

It's located at a single prefecture, we hope. It's not like they need to come up with safety gear/equipment for a whole nation...it's less than 1,000 people! With 55 nuclear power plants in all of Japan...and, Japan is only about the size of the state of California, they should have more than adequate resources, to call on for protective worker measures. They don't...or...they do, and won't waste it on walking dead workers.

Des

edit on 03/28/2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)

edit on 03/28/2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)


yes!...

why is TEPCO permitting it's workers to DIE for the company?
isn't this immoral, illegal, inhumane?

hasn't it occurred to TEPCO that instead of sacrificing a few hundred workers to
certain death, they could be hiring a few thousand people to work temporarily.. until they accrue
(say) a years worth of radiation, then remove them from the site?

wouldn't that be a more ethical solution??
or is it too much bother for TEPCO?
it's just so much easier to take advantage of their employee's willingness
to martyr themselves for the nuclear power industry, than it is to act responsably.

TEPCO is without doubt one of the most inhumane and unscrupulous companies on the planet.













Not quite the same thing, but for our nuclear-biological-chemical training with the military, the part dealing with nuclear theft had a part that went roughly "The safety of civilians is secondary to the recovery of the nuclear material."

While I agree with that (to prevent an even greater loss of life if the material were actually used), it still makes a person think twice about the priorities of organizations larger than self/family.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by AlphaExray
 


Personally, I suspect a strong "read between the lines" hint in your post. I'm wondering if you could advance the ideas you mention here, especially in the final paragraph. I ask simply because I read of something similar recently, and deep down, I have speculated that humans may not fully understand the "Leviathan" that Fukushima has, or may yet become in the days and weeks to follow.

With all the nuclear material present, the addition of sea water, and who knows what else after multiple explosions and experimentation, does anyone really know the full range of possibilities of an unprecedented disaster?

I have had a gnawing suspicion about this whole incident...Now, do you have more information, or were you only speculating in your post?
edit on 3-4-2011 by odd1out because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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dam this fast thread... i remember when it was only at page 344!

About the water making the fuel go critical ... very very very unsuprising!!! (and thats from some one who doenst know all that much other than what ive read!)

Water , has some sort of properties (im sure someone can explain better... im sure its mentioned back round page 344 , as i mentioned/asked this before) which basicly help the fuel (uranium) go critical!

hell, i know this from watching documentries about chernobyl! how the hell did they not know this, or even think about this when pumping all the water into the reactor in the first place ?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

absolute crazy!



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