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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:32 AM
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It appears as if they may have already filled this "crack" and determined there are other cracks leaking contamination into the ocean. The #4 reactor is mentioned.


Tokyo Electric Power Co. took steps to encase the fracture in concrete as an emergency measure but the utility said later that the amount of leakage was unchanged even after the measure was taken. It will try other measures on Sunday to fill the crack in the 2-meter deep pit measuring 1.2 meters by 1.9 meters. The utility, known as TEPCO, said the pit is connected to the No. 2 reactor's turbine building and a tunnel-like underground trench, in which highly radioactive water has been spotted so far.



The agency has instructed the operator to check whether there are cracks at other reactors and to strengthen the monitoring of water in the sea off the plant, he added.


Kyodo




posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by mrbillshow
 


I think Tepco is a little like an octopus, many arms, but, no central brain to guide those arms. IMO, Tepco is using any, and all means, to justify "after the fact", everything they are doing in the present. They are trying like heck, to not die in the process. Imagine you are Tepco, watching, in front of your own eyes, all that POWER, and MONEY, being lost on a global world level. We are watching the demise of a mighty player in overall politics of a whole nation. They will take anyone down with them at this point.

Des



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by makeitso

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by SFA437

The MK I GE BWR has a poor flange design. An overpressure could have ripped the bolts out releasing whatever was inside under pressure.

Those thuds could have definitely been from bolts popping out of a flange. As a matter of fact, the multiple thuds in succession would seem to lend itself to that theory. As each bolt pops (sending pressure waves through a huge steel vessel that acts like a massive amplifier), it increases stress on the adjacent bolts, causing them to pop, and so on until pressure is sufficiently released.

TheRedneck


I'm thinking the overpressure for this to happen would need to be massive, and on a short timescale, near instantaneous. The reason is because of the rubber O-ring around the drywell flange. It is designed to fail at around 70 psi. If it was a slow buildup, the drywell flange rubber O-ring would fail, releasing the pressure into the refueling cavity.

See: allthingsnuclear.org Possible Cause of Reactor Building Explosions

I'm having difficulty visualizing the amount of overpressure it would take to blow these bolts, let alone the concrete shield plug.





I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems more likely that a massive pressure buildup happened within the reactor, expanding the reactor tank, which broke the biological shielding walls just outside the reactor, (causing the thuds), and then punched a hole straight up thru the center of the reactor head and concrete shield plug like a bullet, rather than blowing the whole lid off.




edit on 4/2/11 by makeitso because: (no reason given)


Your theory is very credible. Most of the close ups show very little of the concrete plugs on 1,3 and 4 remaining above the concrete floor level beneath the rubble.

However some of you here can calculate the clamping force of all those bolts. Add to that the weight of the reactor cap to estimate whether it could have been ejected and or fractured. I'm sure we would have seen it fall to the ground had it been whole..

Maybe it fell though the hole in the turbine building?



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by brocktoon
reply to post by Destinyone
 


Look, steam is steam. I'm just using that as an example of a large body of warm water outside, as an example of how visible steam would be out of doors, and at what sort of water temperatures. I'm not trying to be right, I'm just suggesting that Redneck re think this matter of steam being an indicator of boiling point. It's not.


For someone who is not trying to be right...you sure expend a lot of energy pushing a dead horse uphill....ain't gonna get there Hun.

Des to the forum, please excuse my wasting bandwidth in this reply...I'm done with this topic.


Forget hot springs you can see steam rising off a lake in the morning. Its a hard fall off of that high horse



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by bitbytebit

Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by brocktoon
reply to post by Destinyone
 


Look, steam is steam. I'm just using that as an example of a large body of warm water outside, as an example of how visible steam would be out of doors, and at what sort of water temperatures. I'm not trying to be right, I'm just suggesting that Redneck re think this matter of steam being an indicator of boiling point. It's not.


For someone who is not trying to be right...you sure expend a lot of energy pushing a dead horse uphill....ain't gonna get there Hun.

Des to the forum, please excuse my wasting bandwidth in this reply...I'm done with this topic.


Forget hot springs you can see steam rising off a lake in the morning. Its a hard fall off of that high horse


...sigh...oh...well here goes...

Source: USA TODAY research by Jack Williams

One of the signs of fall, along with falling leaves, is the steamy look that ponds, lakes and rivers take on when chilly air blows across them. The "steam" is really fog, naturally enough often called "steam fog." This kind of fog is also known as "sea smoke" when it forms over cold oceans. The process begins when cold, dry air blows over warmer water. Some of the water evaporates into the lower layers of the air and the air is warmed by the warm water. The warmed air rises, where it mixes with colder air above. The mixing cools the air enough to begin condensing some of the newly added water vapor back into tiny droplets - fog. If you look closely, you see that the bottom of the fog is at least a few inches, maybe a couple of feet, above the water. The fog begins forming when the rising air is high enough to be cooled. Steam fog is most common in the fall because the winds begin turning chilly, but the water is slower to cool. Eventually the water cools enough that it no longer evaporates as much moisture into cool air. Another graphic explains radiation fog, which is much more common than steam fog.

Des



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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Ummm....didn't several folks here say this was a "bad" idea....

CNN


Meanwhile, Nishiyama said there is a plan to inject non-flammable nitrogen into reactors 1, 2 and 3 to prevent the risk of another hydrogen explosion like the ones that extensively damaged the unit 1 and 3 housings in the days following the March 11 earthquake and tsunami. A buildup of hydrogen is an early sign of damage to a reactor's superheated core, but Nishiyama said no alarms had been sounded about rising pressure and that adding nitrogen would not force engineers to release hydrogen from the reactor vessel. "It is only to prevent the accumulation of hydrogen as part of the restoration effort," Nishiyama said.




Usually by the time these guys say there is a plan to do something...it has already commenced. Just asking?

edit on 2-4-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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Look, let's not waste any more time on this stuff because we are just dancing about with semantics. Yet again, you are 100% correct your assertions.

A big white cloud of vapour is a big white cloud of vapour whether is was created above or below 100c, and whether we decide to call it a steam cloud or, vapour cloud or Chilli Con Carne.

The only reason I jumped in here with the hotspring example was to warn that that big white cloud like that can be created with water far below boiling, and we should not use it's existence to assume a boiling condition or temperatures.



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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Saw this on rsoe today

hisz.rsoe.hu...


Russian nuclear energy expert, Natalia Mironova, has assessed that Japan's unfolding nuclear disaster is "much bigger than Chernobyl" and could rewrite the international scale used to measure the severity of atomic accidents. "Chernobyl was a dirty bomb explosion. The next dirty bomb is Fukushima and it will cost much more" in economic and human terms, Mironova was cited by the agencies. Mironova is a thermodynamic engineer who became a leading anti-nuclear activist in Russia in the wake of the accident at the Soviet-built reactor in Ukraine in 1986. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) called Chernobyl "the most severe in the history of the nuclear power industry" and ranked it a seven on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES), and it had only one reactor and lasted only two weeks. We have now three weeks (at Fukushima) and we have four reactors which we know are in very dangerous situations," she warned.



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by DancedWithWolves

Define "bad"...

Nitrogen and hydrogen under high temperatures form ammonia (NH4). Iodine and ammonia form nitrogen triiodide (NI3), which is a highly unstable high explosive that makes nitroglycerin look earthquake-proof.

Is that bad?


TheRedneck



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by brocktoon
 
Seems like we would need a container at less than 1 atm to produce what most of us call water vapor. i realize tnat the plants have plenty of containers, but the only on operating at less than 1 atm could be the condenser which increases the efficiency of the steam turbines.
I completely doubt that any area in the plant was operating at less than 1 atm of pressure about 2 minutes after the tsunami hit. jMO



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by brocktoon

If you are thinking about what I think you are thinking about, I was using the absence of large amounts of condensate (as in visible evidence of steam) to indicate the absence of encountered water, and the absence of encountered water to indicate high temperatures due to lack of cooling influences from such.

TheRedneck



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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OK, I had that backwards, I was reading it to say that you were suggesting we would not see steam (read big white cloud) in the absence of boiling...



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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Good. We seem to be in agreement that we have a nuclear power plant that has multiple locations of fuel that isn't being cooled. The condensers were probably damaged in the quake(s) /tsunami and the operator has been lying or delaying true info from the beginning.
We will see water vapor where there are heat sources evaporating water, especially when the surrounding air temps are closer to the dew point.
People that deal with steam will tell you that steam is invisible. What you see aroumd a steam leak is steam that is condensing in air.



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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...ripple...ripple...ripple....

matisak.wordpress.com...



Joseph Cirincione, President, Ploughshares Fund, Ex-director for non-proliferation at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

1. What we’re seeing in Japan today is a slow motion meltdown. Large amounts of radiation are seeping from suspected leaks in the reactor plant into nearby areas. This is different from Chernobyl, which violently blew massive amounts of radiation into the atmosphere and over Europe. However, the total radiation released from Fukushima could eventually reach Chernobyl levels, though over a longer period of time for a more local area.

Unless the TEPCO workers get the upper hand, the situation seems likely to get worse. But we don’t know how much worse, yet.

The worst case scenario is that the radiation leaking from cracks in the reactor containment vessels could force workers to evacuate and cease work at the plant. Then, unable to cool the reactors and spent fuel pools, we could see two or more full core meltdowns and two or more spent fuel fires. The radiation release could be catastrophic.

In any case, many months or years down the road, we can expect the reactors at Fukushima to be encased in tombs of sand and concrete (like at Chernobyl), leaving a ghostly landmark and a zone of exclusion in the nearby area.



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by DancedWithWolves
 

I think you're probably right. Either that or they're still mulling it over and it's not really a plan yet, but rather a plan for a plan.

One thing I noticed is that they now appear to be saying they'll simply inject nitrogen gas, not liquid nitrogen. I expect that as 70-plus percent of air is nitrogen already, then injecting nitrogen gas would not be so bad as the alternative.

One other thing I noticed and which troubles me: Mr Nishiyama said "no alarms had been sounded about risiing pressure", and that statement covered reactors 1, 2 and 3.

I would like to address my statements to Mr Nishiyama as if we were face to face:

Mr Nishiyama, if there are breaches in the system then there will not be rising pressure that will set off the alarms. It is already admitted that the reactors have been breached; it is already admitted that water is being lost and it is further admitted that in some cases, the source of the leaks is still unclear.

Also, Mr Nishiyama, the damage from the explosion to reactor building #3 on March 14 was so massive and clearly evident. It is likely that the upper section of its reactor is missing. The upper half of that building is basically gone and as the reactor's top is normally beyond half the building's height and is not even visible, then it logically follows that either it cannot have its top in place, or else the entire reactor has severely tilted to one side. In either case, its cooling and pressure containment systems are damaged beyond any hope of repair.

Further, Mr Nishiyama, damage to the systems in that building is so massive that it is unlikely that any of its sensitive alarm equipment is still able to function, and even if it was, how can it be certain that it is even connected to anything?

Mr Nishiyama, if an automobile is blown up with a powerful explosive device so that only half of it remains and even the motor block is cracked and its coolant is leaking everywhere, would you still expect its pressure and temperature warning alarms to be reliably functioning?

Please, Mr Nishiyama: making statements that would have people believe that all alarm systems are working and that normal pressure is somehow being maintained are both incorrect and highly improper!



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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I can't help noticing that the crack in the picture does not match the description of a 20cm crack in a pit:





posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by OuttaHere
 


I think that's just a media "kodak moment" for Tepco...the crack leaking radiation is below ground/sea level...looks less ominous in what they present eh?

Des



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Destinyone
 


Tepco's image is not much better




edit on 4/2/11 by makeitso because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


I think Tepco is a little like an octopus, many arms, but, no central brain to guide those arms. IMO, Tepco is using any, and all means, to justify "after the fact", everything they are doing in the present. They are trying like heck, to not die in the process. Imagine you are Tepco, watching, in front of your own eyes, all that POWER, and MONEY, being lost on a global world level. We are watching the demise of a mighty player in overall politics of a whole nation. They will take anyone down with them at this point.

Des



I've been as critical of Tepco as anyone on this thread but I think we have to keep our wits about us and look at the situation rationally.

Tepco is already gone that's why the Japguv is talking about buying it or taking control although I'm not sure why unless it has something to do with liability. Japan can't do without nuclear power so it's in the nations interest to make sure the operations of Tepco and other nukes continue after this crisis. I don't know what the laws are in Japan but if there are limits on the ability to for individuals to sue the gubmint then that would limit the ability of hundreds of thousands of people to sue for damages in the millions each. The JapGuv will just say "We'll take care of you" and then determine how much they can afford.

IMO Tepco execs knew the long term situation at the plant and it's eventual meaning to Tepco as a viable company early on, maybe 3-4 days after the tsunami. I don't think they are trying to kill people, I don't think they are trying to take down others with them. They are trying to avoid a major explosion or otherwise major release of radioactivity because that would encourage panic in Tokyo and a disorderly evacuation of the capitol.

Secondly they are trying to control an uncontrollable situation by putting bandaids on the gushing wounds in the hope they can keep temp levels below critical long enough for the radiation to start lowering and giving them the ability to eventually encase the reactor buildings in tombs. This process won't be weeks or months, it will be years. But the immediate objective is to do everything they can, including blowing smoke up arses and offering inconsequential activities as important, to avoid that panic and flight in Tokyo.

The third objective is to keep this from becoming Chernobyl on steriods which would inevitably collapse the nuclear industry worldwide as well as radiate the entire northern part of Honshu and condemn hundreds of thousands of voters to sickness and death. The short and long term possibilities are bad, worse and catastrophic. They have accepted bad and worse and are now trying to avoid catastrophic.

They just haven't put out the press release, but we are getting it tidbits at a time. The tea leaves are there to be read.
edit on 2-4-2011 by mrbillshow because: clarity



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by mendel101
As my specialty is becoming the webcam, I thought I'd first figure out exactly what we are seeing on the webcam. Fortunately there is a higher resolution image of the plant in better times from almost exactly the same position:


Excellent work
Any chance you can find when the waves hit?




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