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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by SDoradus

Do you think it will increase another 10% tomorrow? That would put the Ci/gallon at 2.29 ... I bet we see less than that and maybe even a decrease.

Iodine is not very soluble in water, which explains why the I-131 is not increasing... the water is probably already saturated with the stuff. The other elements are probably not saturated, so they would be able to increase in intensity.

So I wouldn't say a 10% increase, but I would expect an increase. Now this brings up another eye-opener: if the I-131 is saturated, meaning the water cannot hold any more of it, where would you think any remaining I-131 is going if not into the water? The air!
...


I read the I-131 steady state differently, not as saturation with the water but rather a steady state between it's rate of decay (~8 d) to the rate of production by parent isotope decay. At least that would be typical of other steady states I'm familiar with such as the steady state of radon to radium. (The definition of the Ci)

I don't think the Iodine is saturated. A chemist could probably tell us though. I'm sure the molarity of the I can be calculated from the Bq, I just don't know how to do it.

--
New thought, I assume the sample from the basement is initially cold (don't know) but if you take it back to the lab and let it heat up a little bit then the sample releases some of it's solutes to the air. i.e. the sample measured in the lab may not accurately reflect the sample taken in the basement if you let it to warm up to room temperature.

edit on 28-3-2011 by SDoradus because: Additional thought on Iodine saturation




posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by DancedWithWolves
 





I respectfully disagree in theory though about the invite - simply because we are dealing with a disaster that does not respect borders. If the only people affected were the people of Japan - then so be it - we await an invite and pray for the best. When Japan's problem left your shores and became the world's problem - international efforts to contain pending disaster must be accepted. When we engage in and use technologies that can hurt more than ourselves - we assume the interest and rights of those who could be affected.


I couldn't agree with you more and thankfully as someone has just posted, they have asked for help from France.

Even though that might be a little too late.
edit on 28/3/11 by MissTiger because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Vitchilo

Time to sue TEPCO and the Japanese government for TRILLION OF $$$.

Sue them to what end?

There is no amount of money that can bring back what is being destroyed before our eyes: the people, the culture, the island itself. There is no amount of monetary loss that can atone for this disaster. Some things cannot be measured in dollars.

I believe we have gone far far beyond the ability of any earthly judicial system to restore balance in this case. Suing TEPCO or Japan is akin to shooting a bird finger at Jeffrey Dalmer... it fixes nothing and accomplishes less.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by burntheships
 


Keep an eye on NHK World, they keep airing it every once an hour.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by sunrisetomorrow2011

Could the Japanese government secretly be working with TEPCO to create nuclear weapons?

I am concerned about the same thing, although I have no proof. I believe they are trying to develop neutron beam weaponry based on using spent fuel to both power and provide the weaponry.

That explains the slip of the tongue mentioning neutron beams (I just don't fully believe it was just a translation error, sorry) as well as the secrecy around the disaster. Japan has an inordinate amount of spent fuel in this plant.

TheRedneck


Yup...

USJ-TAX is an acronym for US-Japan Cold Neutron Triple Axis Spectrometer, a crystal spectrometer which uses a continuous neutron beam.

It is developed as a collaborative effort of scientists from the leading US National Laboratories and an international group of prominent neutron scattering experts, aimed at designing and building a new high-flux inelastic neutron spectrometer at the new Cold Guide Hall of the High Flux Isotope Reactor at Oak Ridge. This effort is led by the physicists from the Neutron Scattering Group (and former Center for Neutron Science) at Brookhaven National Laboratory. The USJ-TAX is part of the US-Japan Cooperative Program on Neutron Scattering, including scientists of the Neutron Scattering Science Division at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the Neutron Scattering Group at BNL, and the Neutron Science Laboratory, Institute for Solid State Physics, at the University of Tokyo.
neutrons.phy.bnl.gov...



AND...
Fluctuation analysis of dynamical systems and its application to nuclear power plants

Neutron plays an important role in the release of nuclear energy from fission chain reactions. At present, many nuclear power plants are utilized to produce most of electricity in the world. Hence, in our laboratory, nuclear reactor physics is studied mainly in terms of space-dependent kinetics and neutron fluctuation analysis on BWRs and PWRs.
www.ne.t.kyoto-u.ac.jp...-of-neutrons-to



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by predator0187
The plutonium could have possibly come from the spent fuel pool could it have not? I was under the impression that spent MOX fuel was in their spent fuel pool, but I could be wrong.

If it is possible that the plutonium came from the spent fuel then maybe #3 does not have a breech, and maybe the spent fuel is providing the majority of radiation.

Just a thought.


Pred...


I could only wish this was true. However, due to the fact the even NISA says that its highly likely (which in my opinion is an admission ) that its from the reactor core itself.


Japan's nuclear safety agency says it is highly likely that radioactive materials are leaking from part of the Number 3 reactor of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spoke to reporters on Friday about an accident in which 3 workers were exposed to radiation in the turbine building of the No. 3 reactor.

It said 3.9 million becquerels of radiation was detected from 1 cubic centimeter of water sampled from the floor of the building. The radiation level was about 10,000 times higher than the water inside a normally operating nuclear reactor.The agency said the water sample indicated it is highly likely the leak comes from the reactor itself, not from the pool storing spent nuclear fuel.www.globalresearch.ca...



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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NHK report "the plutonium is in the air from past world wide nuclear tests and WWII. The plutonium found is only a little more than the background so there is no thear to human health."

Everywhere else on the net says Pu 239 is dangerous even if small amounts are inhaled.

The MOX pellets contain powered Pu-239 and U-235 dust. It's already as fine as can be prior to jet stream injection!!!

Reactor 3 was converted to MOX in Sept 2010. A MOX core should last 1.3 years.

nuclearhistory.wordpress.com...

In theory there would be no MOX in the spent pool. I have no idea where they keep fresh rods?

Can anyone please confirm the spent fuel rods are not the brown mushroom we saw!

Has any one seen a photo of the yellow or red top of the reactor vessel in No3?
edit on 28-3-2011 by Procharmo because: More info and a link



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Regenstorm

Is there something that could speed up this proces?
A catalyzer of some sort?

That is what a nuclear reactor does... it doesn't make uranium decay; it makes uranium decay faster, producing enough heat in the process to make power. Each isotope contains a specific amount of energy in the form of radioactivity, and the only way to release that energy faster is to release it faster... meaning anything that speeds up the decay process increases the amount of radiation and heat emitted in a unit of time.

Speeding up the process means making the situation even more dangerous. The only solution to pollution is dilution. Nature will take care of itself (and us if we let it), but it has to be allowed to clean itself at its own rate.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by Regenstorm

Originally posted by cripmeister
reply to post by butcherguy
 


Thanks. From following this thread it seems to me that several posters are under the impression that once nuclear fuel rods have started to melt the process is unstoppable. There's no such thing as a partial meltdown yet that's what happened at TMI. Confusing to say the least.


No it's not, if I'm informed correctly.
A meltdown is a meltdown, nothing that can change that proces.

They speak of a partial meltdown when not all the rods in the reactor become part of that meltdown.


A partial meltdown was exactly what we were speaking about, specifically the event at Three Mile Island.

In a low water event, gravity sees to it that the tops of the fuel rods are exposed (not covered in water, thereby not cooled) first. That is where the melting begins, and it will affect all the rods at once, but not all of each rod.




Could it be that the quake itself caused this? Because if the water in the reactor during the quake was swapping like a tidal wave, it's likely that the rods got above waterlevel. It was a 9.0 quake and the most recent newsreports claim that the meltdown occured on March 11.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:27 PM
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So, now they admit they took readings a week ago, plutonium was discovered a week ago,
and the readings have now increased from that time


Highly contaminated water is escaping a damaged reactor at the crippled nuclear power plant in Japan and could soon leak into the ocean, the country’s nuclear regulator warned on Monday.

The discovery poses a further setback to efforts to contain the nuclear crisis as workers find themselves in increasingly hazardous conditions.

In another new finding, Tokyo Electric Power Company, which runs the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power station, said late Monday that it had detected an increase in levels of plutonium in soil samples taken from within the compound a week ago, raising fears of yet another dangerous element that may be escaping the crippled reactors. www.nytimes.com...



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by sunrisetomorrow2011

.... Japan has an inordinate amount of spent fuel in this plant.

TheRedneck

Stored in quiet an odd fashion , and remember those first helicopter crews? all had signs of radiation on their clothing except the one, whom had radiation on his skin...what was so important that he would risk touching it in a radioactive environment? Perhaps the radiation was on his face?

An interesting , if tangential, note is that Fukushima is one of the places that the Japanese looked for nuclear materials in their attempt to create fission near teh end of WWII

Another interesting noteis what research has been done regarding Nan0-structures and uranium, with some of the commercial spin-outs being eyed, the reason is stated as :

Japan uses 7589 tons of Uranium per year now.


just a little gedunkt experiment to keep the moths from chewing on the wool as it were



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Regenstorm

Is there something that could speed up this proces?
A catalyzer of some sort?

That is what a nuclear reactor does... it doesn't make uranium decay; it makes uranium decay faster, producing enough heat in the process to make power. Each isotope contains a specific amount of energy in the form of radioactivity, and the only way to release that energy faster is to release it faster... meaning anything that speeds up the decay process increases the amount of radiation and heat emitted in a unit of time.

Speeding up the process means making the situation even more dangerous. The only solution to pollution is dilution. Nature will take care of itself (and us if we let it), but it has to be allowed to clean itself at its own rate.

TheRedneck


I apologize for hopping in and out of this thread and only reading a couple of pages at a time, but I have a question.

I have heard tell, that this could melt down and actually melt into the earth, possibly all the way through the crust. Sinc Japan is already a volcanic island, this is even more likely.

Wouldn't that be a good thing? Surely the inner processes of the earth are capable of taking care of this stuff? They seem to put that possibility as an extremely dangerous one, but it seems like to me the safest place for all this radiation and heat is deep beneath the earths crust. It seems much safer than just entombing it on the surface.

Is that type of meltdown a real possibitily or just sci-fi, and if it is real, do you think it would be good or bad?



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by fltcui
Holes discovered (admitted to) in Reactors 1,2,3 pressure vessels
This is a significant change in status.

Here's the actual News source that site is referring to ...

TEPCO says damage possible to reactor pressure containers


TEPCO officials told reporters Monday morning that despite the continuous pumping in of water to cool down the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactor cores, water levels were not rising as expected, meaning the pressure containers may not be completely sealed off.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 



At TMI, as I understand it, the rods began to melt but did not fully melt into a pool of liquid; they deformed as the material softened. Thus, they did output more of a chain reaction than if they were perfectly intact, but not as much as if they were liquefied.
At TMI, the upper end of the core did go molten and did end up at the bottom of the RPV.

Wiki has a good write-up on the whole disaster.
Three Mile Island Accident



This drawing shows where things ended up. It took a few years to for them to figure out what actually happened in there.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:38 PM
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I think this is quite significant news.

Japan water plants warned over radioactive rain

Not only rainwater, but they are now instructing to block the river water as well.

Can I ask, where are they going to get water from then?


Originally posted by burntheships
The Japanese Government Has Now Asked That All Water Purification Plants
Stop Taking Rainwater Into Their Water Supply.



Japan's health ministry has asked water purification plants nationwide to stop taking in rainwater and cover pools with tarpaulins to shield them from radiation from a crippled nuclear plant.

The capital Tokyo and several nearby municipalities last week said they had detected radioactive iodine-138 levels that made their tap water unsafe for infants, although the contamination has dropped off since.

The health ministry warned at the weekend that fresh rainfall could capture radioactive elements that have escaped from the stricken Fukushima plant, and channel them via rivers and dams into drinking water supplies.www.pakistantimes.net...

www.abovetopsecret.com...



edit on 28-3-2011 by burntheships because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by monica86

Probably skipped the qualitative analysis, since they already did one on a similar sample earlier. Plus I think there is now pressure to get information out on a more reasonable timetable.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
Is that type of meltdown a real possibitily or just sci-fi, and if it is real, do you think it would be good or bad?

I'm sure TheRedneck will jump in and clarify, but my (laymen's) understanding is that the worst case scenario is it will melt though the lower portion of the outer containment structure - through all the concrete (and possibly graphite, etc.) into the rock. Being built along the coast, it is quite likely to hit groundwater (in this case seawater infiltration into the coastal strata). At that point, it could super-heat that water, causing it to erupt-out wherever it has (or can make via pressure) an exit. So, cracks in the ground become geyser's, etc. Of course, it's not just water at that point, it also contains various radioactive contaminants from the melt-down.

PS: Another way to put it ... a big radioactive version of "Old Faithful" ... or another way to put it ... "Godzilla Breath".

edit on 2011-3-28 by EnhancedInterrogator because: Added post-script.


edit on 2011-3-28 by EnhancedInterrogator because: Formatting, spelling, grammar, broken links, etc


edit on 2011-3-28 by EnhancedInterrogator because: Formatting, spelling, grammar, broken links, etc.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by SDoradus

I'll try to find time today to run some numbers on the saturation. I have been wondering what the saturation limit would be myself.

Re new thought: you might be on to something, at least if the isotopes are short-lived or saturation is approached.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator
 




So, cracks in the ground become geyser's, etc. Of course, it's not just water at that point, it also contains various radioactive contaminants from the melt-down.


So (not) funny this came up. I woke up this AM thinking about corium hitting the water table, then that lead to "radioactive geysers". That was very disturbing. I hope that doesn't come to pass.

Maybe this will all just go away? We can only hope and pray....



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by Regenstorm

I tend to think it was the lack of cooling water injection after the tsunami wiped out backup power. Sloshing around might cause some heating, but I doubt it would be enough to soften the rods.

The quake might have also damaged the seawater heat exchange coils in the condenser. This would have allowed the water level to drop as well. And it is pretty obvious from the seawater influx that the coils are damaged.


TheRedneck



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