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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by Destinyone
 


If this is govt protocol...it needs to be updated asap.

I've been here a bit, btw... Though don't mean to be offensive.

Cheers to hoping some sanity comes of this situation, though I have my doubts....

Peace!




posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by Black Sheep
To the experts on this board especially Zorgon and Redneck. I came across some interesting information in a Washington Post article published tonight and wanted to see if this 'new' information changes your opinions of this situation.




Unlike in newer reactor designs, the older boiling water reactors at Daiichi are pierced by dozens of holes in the bottom of their reactor vessels. Each hole allows one control rod — made of a neutron-absorbing material that quickly stops nuclear fission inside the reactor — to slide into the reactor from below, as happened when the earthquake shook the plant March 11. During normal operations, a graphite stopper covers each hole, sealing in highly radioactive primary cooling water, said Arnie Gundersen, a consultant at Fairewinds Associates with 40 years of experience overseeing boiling water reactors. But at temperatures above 350 degrees Fahrenheit, the graphite stoppers begin to melt. “Since it is likely that rubble from the broken fuel rods . . . is collecting at the bottom of the reactor, the seals are being damaged by high temperature or high radiation,” Gundersen said. As the graphite seals fail, water in the reactor will leak into a network of pipes in the containment buildings surrounding each reactor — the very buildings that have been heavily damaged by explosions. Gundersen said that this piping is probably compromised, leaving highly radioactive water to seep from the reactor vessels into broken pipes — and from there into the turbine buildings and beyond.


Washington Post

This is the first time I have heard of this design problem. It seems like it would answer almost all of the questions Redneck had about how water could travel through out the entire plant.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this 'new' news.

BlackSheep
edit on 27-3-2011 by Black Sheep because: TS


That actually makes a lot of sense to me and matches up well with the outbursts of radiation and the locations it is observed. We have that water that those workers had walked through, I believe this scenario fully well explains how that happened. This also sets things up for the next inevitable phase:

Without water inside the reactors the fuel rods will continue to melt and pool, whatever is left will boil away and escape as steam, down to the very last drop. This molten liquid will continue to heat up, and head out the same way, and then it will drop and flash with the very same radioactive water that it was immersed in. If we see the results of this water already, then I would imagine this could happen anytime, but likely take a few days from when the water is gone till when the corium goes completely molten. This is bad they need to drain those structures pronto.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:15 PM
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could someone give me brief update on events with the reactors and surrounding areas the news seems to have put a lid on new info Libya seems to be there distraction any big events happen in the last 2-3 days ive been away?



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by TheLastStand
 


Not necessarily, I don't think-----if the corium escapes through these fittings drip by drip, and each drop/blob of it falls into the water in very small amounts, it could actually be helpful because it would allow it all to slowly escape the reactor and start to be "cooled" (however much it can be at this point) by that water at a slower rate. If it all falls at once, then it's bad, but slow dripping, I think, would be good. This might be why they've been just pouring water into the buildings themselves----not to cool the reactors, but to keep water *under* them for the corium to drip into.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by pez1975
could someone give me brief update on events with the reactors and surrounding areas the news seems to have put a lid on new info Libya seems to be there distraction any big events happen in the last 2-3 days ive been away?


This will get you started. The rest of the action has been in the last 4 pages or so.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by 00nunya00
 


Oh I don't think it'll be dripping through, lol. It will be a couple thousand degrees by the time it hits what is left of those graphite plugs, they will be destroyed within minutes as best. It's like trying to use a plastic spaghetti strainer on lava, it won't do much but melt right through it.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by TheLastStand
 


I'm not sure about that----as The Redneck said:




Now, if that is true, that would mean the corium was able to drip out of the seal holes where the graphite once was, and the smoke marked the exit of corium from the reactor vessel.


Now, I don't know the specifics, but I think dripping as opposed to all-at-once is certainly possible.

ETA: actually, if Redneck is correct about the black smoke marking this corium drip/leak through the holes, then it's certain that it's dripping and not blasting through----it would have done so by now and we would have already seen this "flash explosion".
edit on 27-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by TheLastStand
reply to post by 00nunya00
 


It's like trying to use a plastic spaghetti strainer on lava, it won't do much but melt right through it.


You got that right. Its about time everyone comes to an understanding.


"These things play out over a long period of time, longer than people would think," Allen said. "You have an earthquake that lasts maybe a minute, a tsunami that lasts maybe 15 minutes. But these things could go on for months. You could lose all six of the reactors."

If workers are unable to get additional cooling water into the reactor vessel, the molten fuel core will collapse into the water in the bottom of the vessel. Eventually the heat from the decaying fuel would boil away the water that's left, leaving the core sitting on the vessel's lower head made of steel.

Should that happen, "It'll melt through it like butter," Allen said.
www.knoxnews.com...



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by burntheships
 


But that melt doesn't always melt through the entire bottom at once; sometimes it makes a hole and drips there, sometimes it melts connections quicker and it escapes that way, etc. Corium is a very unpredictable beast because we haven't encountered it many times.

Wiki has a great article on corium and the link there points specifically to the part about breaching the reactor. It's not always "melt/flash/bang". There are many variables.

ETA: this is the part I was talking about with the drip:

However the dynamics of the movement of corium in and outside of the reactor vessel is highly complex, and the number of possible scenarios is wide; slow drip of melt into an underlying water pool can result in complete quenching, while a fast contact of large mass of corium with water may result in destructive steam explosion. Corium may be completely retained by the reactor vessel, or the reactor floor or some of the instrument penetration holes can be melted through.

edit on 27-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by BKGump

Hello, and welcome to ATS! We seem to be gaining a lot of members from this little matchstick TEPCO set off.

I like your thinking, but I do see some logistical difficulties. The main one is access... with the buildings damaged so severely, moving through that rubble is going to be a major problem. Blasting a hole in the side of a wall is one thing, but we are not even sure which walls are intact any more. Then there is the issue of the actual location of the corium... beneath tons upon tons of reactor vessel, surrounded by concrete several feet thick.

In addition, there is the problem of getting someone close enough to the corium to actually aim the slurry. The radiation levels underneath those reactors right now will kill in seconds. At those levels, all the speed and protection in the world will do no good; by the time you see your target, you're on the floor dead, even wearing a radiation suit.

The heat as well will make for its own obstacle. This plant produced steam capable of turning huge turbines to generate millions of watts of electric power, plus even more energy to offset the energy overhead of running the plant. For every watt produced, at least another watt of power was wasted as atmospheric or oceanic heat. That is a lot of energy, and now it is all being converted to heat. I believe there is a major updraft over the plants right now that is belching radioactive particles into the air from this heat, and I also believe this updraft is one reason helicopters are being ruled out.

Now add into this mix the fact that we actually have three plants going into meltdown, each on its own time schedule. Even if you could stop one, all three would have to be stopped before radiation levels would even begin to subside. And I haven't even mentioned the spent fuel rods, adding another layer of radioactive barrier to working conditions.

I believe the best case scenario is for the corium to eventually, over the next days/weeks, make its way to the water table and create a steam explosion, but one that is not strong enough to cause radiation to enter the Jet Stream. If this cools the corium enough, there may be a window of opportunity when some sort of mixture like that you mention can be added before the heat and radiation again become too intense for work to continue. It won't stop the radiation effects, but it could save part of Japan and prevent any future radiation from being released uncontrolled into the environment.

At least that is my hope. My only hope, to be honest.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:31 PM
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reply to post by Destinyone
 


there is o much you can do! dont feel that way!
Yes we are helpless to change things beyond our grasp, but not helpless enough to not be able to change oneself!

We have to change first in order to turn all this mess around, we got to this point of no return DECADES ago, when they built them, when they went for the weaponizing of nuclear power instead of using it as a means to rid us of the dependence of finite resources.

We have to change on a personal level, helping others to change, teach your children the value of life, teach strangers the value of efficiency in a social setting, teach your loved ones to exist without being tied to the value of our stuff, and not of our souls.
The world is a mess, and so are we. It is a fractal, reiterating itself, the machine is broken, the degradation process on full go.
but that does not mean we all have to pay for it.
Lets be responsible, lets be accountable for our mistakes and take the full weight of our actions head on.

Why do they lie? because they value other things instead of life.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:31 PM
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reply to post by 00nunya00
 


if it makes a small hole, that hole will get a heck of alot more wider once the corium gets up to a couple thousand degrees. That stuff is hot enough to burn and melt concrete. Your small hole isn't going to just drip and stay small it is going to get torn wide open! Graphite plugs! LMAO this is real sad, so many engineering flaws, stupid risk taking just to save a couple of bucks building the reactors.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by pez1975
could someone give me brief update on events with the reactors and surrounding areas the news seems to have put a lid on new info Libya seems to be there distraction any big events happen in the last 2-3 days ive been away?


Just read back a couple pages and use this for your news

www3.nhk.or.jp...



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by TheLastStand
 


Several thousand degrees and a large mass ( the nature of the design of containment makes this a threshold ), there is no "dripping" there is pulsating mass , if one could sustain "dripping" it would be from massive heat transfere, that given the physics and thermodynamics, means any dripping lasts about four pico seconds ( exactly like armor penetrating shells ) , the only way any "slow" reaction can be maintained is at teh cost of extreme thermal transport and in this case that means radiation transport



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by 00nunya00

I did say 'drip', didn't I?

Of course, even if the mechanism you suggest has happened (and it is possible), each drip would vaporize water. eventually all the water would be gone, since it would already be close to the boiling point form all the heat already generated right above it. the corium would simply melt back into a pool once the water was gone, and would resume meltdown.

Nice hypothesis!


TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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would blowing up the corium work? like with a hand grenade or something?

Would that disperse it a bit



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:37 PM
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Population of Chernobyl - Historically and geographically, the zone is a heartland of the Polesia region—the birthplace of East Slavs. This predominantly rural woodland area was once home to 120,000 people, living in 90 communities (including the cities of Chernobyl and Pripyat), but is now mostly uninhabited.

Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant Exclusion Zone

Fukushima Prefecture-Total population: 2,121,682 , area: 13,781 km2

Fukushima Prefecture


(Reuters Health) - Rates of certain birth defects appear higher than normal in one of the Ukraine regions most affected by the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster, according to a new study.

The results point to a need for continuing research into birth defects in regions affected by chronic low-dose radiation from Chernobyl, according to researcher Dr. Wladimir Wertelecki of the University of Southern Alabama in Mobile.

Wertelecki found that among all 96,438 babies born in Rivne between 2000 and 2006, the rate of neural tube defects -- serious anomalies of the brain and spine, including spina bifida -- were higher than the average for Europe. In Rivne, 22 of every 10,000 babies were born with a neural tube defect, compared with a European average of 9 per 10,000.

What's more, the rate was particularly elevated in the Polissia area -- where 27 of every 10,000 babies were born with a neural tube defect, compared with 18 per 10,000 in the rest of Rivne.

Higher birth-defect rate seen in Chernobyl area


EVACUATION for a short time,will not stop the problems these people will have to endure,if they decide to even try to go back. I say EVACUATE,and never go back. The Japanese Government needs to be honest with their people.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


That actually sounds like it might buy them a few days time before it melted down through the concrete and into the rooms below.....

You know, I think we might be on to something here. I think we might both be right----it dripped until there was no more water to drip into, and then after that any flash-melt through the bottom or pipes would meet nothing but more corium and concrete, and therefore no explosion. Any water they spray in after that will create instant steam, but not a flash explosion from a small amount of sprayed water that got on it, right? It would have to all meet a lot of water at once to flash-explode?



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck

Now add into this mix the fact that we actually have three plants going into meltdown, each on its own time schedule. Even if you could stop one, all three would have to be stopped before radiation levels would even begin to subside. And I haven't even mentioned the spent fuel rods, adding another layer of radioactive barrier to working conditions.

I believe the best case scenario is for the corium to eventually, over the next days/weeks, make its way to the water table and create a steam explosion, but one that is not strong enough to cause radiation to enter the Jet Stream. If this cools the corium enough, there may be a window of opportunity when some sort of mixture like that you mention can be added before the heat and radiation again become too intense for work to continue. It won't stop the radiation effects, but it could save part of Japan and prevent any future radiation from being released uncontrolled into the environment.

At least that is my hope. My only hope, to be honest.

TheRedneck


Given that as of this morning's IAEA brief, the RPV temperatures at daiichi 1 and 2 were 142C (and falling) and 96C (and falling), and that pressure at 2 and 3 remain stable, and furthermore that radiation levels both in the suppression areas and surrounding the plant are decreasing, I think you might be a *tad* on the alarmist side by suggesting the best case scenerio is melting through to the water table.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by TheOneEyedProphet
 


Thank You for some gentle perspective. My only child, Dear Daughter, is a Professor at U.C. Berkeley, neurobiology. I see in her, so much of what human beings should be. In her, I see hope.

I pray for the people of Japan...I believe in miracles. Now, if only miracles can over come the stupidity of man.

Thank You,

Des




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