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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneckthey might say "stop engine now", but give no further information. Dosimeters say something like "dosage exceeded", but they don't say how much it was exceeded.


Don't know about you, but if I saw THAT idiot light go off... I'M OUTTA THERE

Not gonna be saying.."Hmmm it went off too soon... must be defective."
edit on 25-3-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by reg
 


Indeed, the UK press seem fairly happy to let this slide down the headlines, although they are admittedly crammed with alternative grim stories.

However, I was out shopping today and decided to search the small print on our normal supermarket own-brand tuna and noticed that it lists Thailand as the source. Now I don't KNOW whether that may include Tuna that was either caught or had inhabited (passed through) any Pacific regions, or how they may have been affected by this nuclear accident, but I do know that although the winds were largely blowing the discharge out to sea, we are seeing alarming stories about produce and people East of the plant, which gets you thinking.

I guess that given the current vacum of information nobody could hope to make an authoritative statement about such risks, but I didn't buy that tuna, caught by line or not. One of the things that may eventually be seen as differentiating this incident from Chernobyl is the proximity to one of the manufacturing and export hubs of the world, and one which in the wake of the Tsunami is going to be encouraged to export goods for consumption all over the world, but is there a conflict there with the nautre of attempting to contain such radiological accidents?



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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Boy, this thread is THE source of information on this story! I am nothing but impressed with both the knowledge of you posters as well as the diligent citing of relevant sources. So keep up the good work.

By the way, anyone know how this stuff is spreading throughout the world? All I know of is the IRIS animation map, showing pretty much the globe covered with cesium-137. Of course, IRIS helpfully explains that there is narry a thing to worry about, but what might just be something to worry about is the spread of other elements, which so far I've not seen mapped.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by Feenx
 


Yes, well I can't think of any other reason why in the four years we've lived in the Fraser valley, we've had the cleanest water I've ever tasted, no additives, pure. Better than the well water in the interior. Made a mistake once bought some expensive bottled water, and ours was better, more pure. Now it has a dusty taste.
edit on 25-3-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:15 PM
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yeah I got caught up,

A couple of things to note:

I think the problem with using seawater is not so much the salt...( although I am sure the molten NA is creating some thermal sheilding and creating odd . oscillating thermal 'pockets'that were driving cladding loss(but due to expansion/contraction of the core from the cladding more than corrosion)
.
...but instead in fact the best place to find IODINE IS IN SEAWATER , so they have been dumping fuel for the released radio-active materials in there BY THE TON....wow a little like pouring gas on a fire..nice

Someone asked us to "give a time line" , I agree with theredneck , there were an insane number of variables to begin to with and all of the "efforts" at repair have been multiplying the variables for chemistry , thermal capacities and nuclear physics...and the information has been dribbled piecemeal and sometimes inaccurately, that we can even get close to making the right estimation from this (informational) distance is a miracle all by it's self, almost remote viewed one could say. that said....

you are seeing multiple melt downs..either they hit a critical threshold and start releasing heat so fast they blow (steam explosion) or they continue the slow melt toward oblivion. the first scenario is still balanced on a pin head ....it could happen at any minute...
the second is weeks to months more of melting/heat/radiation,

With the admission of neutron leaks and heavy ionization any electronics in the plant have might have been crystallized and made inoperative, one place this would be especially important is the pumps /turbines motor controls and power supplies. Unless I miss my guess those would be three phase motors and if radioactive water got past the exchanger it would get close enough to possibly cook the electronics used to control generate the 3-phase supply

as for the worker , I am betting a dime against a doughnut that we had a bottom breach of the containment floor with , as Chakotay says, corium on the move somewhere near that 'basement' the temperature differential just being near something like that would crack the concrete in several places ( explaining the core water ) and the extremely high levels of radiation....unfortunately unless those pictures of the workers(especially the guy with his hair out ) are faked up and if the 10,000 (100,000) x number is true those fellows are already walking dead and it would appear that somehow PROFESSIONALS WORKING AT A NUCLEAR DISASTER SITE ARE EXTREMELY CAREFREE WITH THEIR OWN SAFETY, or are obviously considered expendable by tepco, and are un-inform and un-educated about the dangers
edit on 25-3-2011 by Silverlok because: there is only there when it's there



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

I believe, and have believed for a few hundred pages now, that the explosion from #3 ruptured #2, and that the intensity of that explosion was due to the MOX fuel being used.

So.... yes.

TheRedneck


Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread.


Of all of the radioactive elements involved here, the MOX fuel uses plutonium 239 as the fissionable element.

Plutonium 239 has a half life of 24,100 years.


If that stuff gets out of #3????

Here is a very good article, Redneck, could be helpful for further research..

www.scientificamerican.com...


Lyman authored a study in 2001 in Science & Global Security showing that radioactive leakage from a meltdown with MOX fuel, which in addition to plutonium has higher levels of radioactive isotopes such as americium 241 and curium 242, would be deadlier than a low-enriched uranium meltdown. "Because plutonium is so much more radiotoxic than many of the other radionuclides, even if it's released in relatively small concentrations it can have an impact on the effects," Lyman says. He adds that it is not possible at the moment to identify how much the MOX fuel in Fukushima reactor No. 3 has contributed to the radioactive plumes emanating from the plant.


Is it possible that plutonium 239 could have already been detected (leaking) at reactor 3, and maybe TEPCO isn't reporting it?


edit on 25-3-2011 by Fractured.Facade because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by mrbillshow

Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
reply to post by mrbillshow
 


The Emperor giving his people a gift?

That has got to be significant, JustMike what would you say this indicates?


My math might be off but it looks like this gift averages out to 13 eggs, 1/3 a chicken and maybe a can of sausage for each of the 93 evacuees?

Be still my heart...


oh my god! That is such an awesome deal! And I only have to pay with my life later when the radiation sickness sets in rendering me to a slow and painful death with my flesh falling off my bones and my hair and teeth falling out. Yippy! That is some damned good food considering.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by Silverlok
 


I would like to add that MOX, is suppose to be used in special reactors designed for ...MOX, because teh plutonium added to it significantly changes the thermal capacity of the rods,which requires more control rods and extra emergency expansion space ( in case of really rapid plutonium driven overheating ). Old reactors are dangerous places to put mox because IN AN EMERGENCY they may not be able to handle the thermal loads placed on them and have a higher likely hood to fail as a result.



About 30 thermal reactors in Europe (Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and France) are using MOX[6] and a further 20 have been licensed to do so. Most reactors use it as about one third of their core, but some will accept up to 50% MOX assemblies. In France, EDF aims to have all its 900 MWe series of reactors running with at least one-third MOX. Japan aimed to have one third of its reactors using MOX by 2010, and has approved construction of a new reactor with a complete fuel loading of MOX. Of the total nuclear fuel used today, MOX provides 2%


and more importantly

[4] Licensing and safety issues of using MOX fuel include:[6] As plutonium isotopes absorb more neutrons than uranium fuels, reactor control systems may need modification. MOX fuel tends to run hotter because of lower thermal conductivity, which may be an issue in some reactor designs. Fission gas release in MOX fuel assemblies may limit the maximum burn-up time of MOX fuel.


40 years old+ reactors with a dubious safety history SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN APPROVED FOR THIS and the plutonium content of these rods CERTAINLY EXCERBATED AND POSSIBLLY CREATED THE OUT OF CONTROL SITUATION , or disaster if you prefer



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by monica86
  • CL-38 - probably a result of injecting seawater directly into the core. Not a common isotope, however; I would have expected more Cl-36.
  • As-74 - Arsenic normally carries an atomic weight of 75, so obviously this is likely not due to neutron capture of an existing element. I tend to think it is a transmutation from germanium, which has extensive use in electronic sensors and in a lot of electronic circuitry from the 1960s/1970s (before the major changeover to silicon). I don't think they will be getting very good sensor readings in the control room if this is the case.
  • Y-91 - While yttrium is used to alloy some metals, it is used in minuscule amounts. Zirconium isotopes formed by neutron absorption, however, could decay into yttrium through transmutation theoretically, and I think this is probably what happened. So much for the fuel rod cladding.
  • I-131 - We all know about radioactive iodine by now... a product of uranium decay.
  • Cs-134, -135, -137 - radioactive isotopes of cesium... 134 and 137 are more dangerous than the relatively low energy 135. Common fission products.
  • La-140 - Lanthanum is a normal fission product of uranium fission. The La-140 isotope is considered interesting to some in the nuclear physics field, but I honestly don't know why. It does indicate uranium fission, though.

In summary, it means uranium is reacting where that water sample was recently.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:36 PM
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Just to check, having seen how quickly the West have managed to share surveillance and aviation footage from Libya, has anyone either seen any such aerial imagery from the USA or anyone else with the capabilities do do so for Fukishima?

Also, what became of that Global Hawk surveillance flight back in week one?



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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This is my maiden post. Whilst I have been reading this thread from the start I do not think I have seen any evidence of the fact that Fukishima Dani Reactor No3 was corroded, cracked, welded and held together with tie rods in the past (2001). This has to have compromised the structural integrity of the reactor vessel. TEPCO have not mentioned this and neither have any media experts so I thought I'd join up and spread the word.

Here is the link.

www2.jnes.go.jp...


"The Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station Unit-3 (BWR, rated power 1100 MWe), Tokyo Electric Power Company, had been under the periodical inspection since April 29, 2001. Internal structures in the reactor pressure vessel were inspected. As a result of the inspection, cracks were recognized in the vicinity of the weld portion of the outer surface of the shroud(Note) lower ring. Therefore, it was decided to investigate the concerned crack of the shroud in detail "




I would love if someone could explain how to post the diagram on the thread or do it for me. I think it's important for you all to know how it was lashed back together instead of buying a new vessel.

If I had a cracked car cylinder block I could add some JB weld and still drive it. But should I complain if it blows up when I could have bought a brand new engine block at extra cost but much improved reliability.

A nuclear reactor is not a shade tree mechanic DIY project!!!!

Now where did I put my ducktape!!!!!


edit on Sat Mar 26 2011 by DontTreadOnMe because: ex tags added



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by curioustype
Just to check, having seen how quickly the West have managed to share surveillance and aviation footage from Libya, has anyone either seen any such aerial imagery from the USA or anyone else with the capabilities do do so for Fukishima?

Also, what became of that Global Hawk surveillance flight back in week one?


I think you would have found the heat signatures from the reactors would have created mass panic. Also No pictures of Fukishima reactors at night in case of blue lights coming from the reactors... (Cherknov effect).



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


So, the question is - where was that water when it became contaminated? Did it leak out of the reactor containment? Did it leak/spill out of the used fuel pool? Is there a fission reaction going on underneath the containment vessel, due to molten fuel melting through bottom of the vessel?



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by Fractured.Facade
 



Is it possible that plutonium 239 could have already been detected (leaking) at reactor 3, and maybe TEPCO isn't reporting it?


almost certainly , given the level of information masking and teh highly politically sensitive nature of plutonium , it's use , and release ( and where it comes from ), it's doubtful we will get any real information on that through official sources,

but indirect sources like temperatures and escape 'by-products' and the production of 'lava' (corium or molten reactor fuel ) tell us quite a lot:

The core rod internal temps must have exceeded 1200C already ( to have released zirconium from the cladding)
If we get confirmation of corium (molten glowing goo) then we can assume temps reaches as high as 2400c ( in an oscillating cycle from fission and thermal blanketing) which, from experimentation , estimates 10% or more of the uranium and plutonium escaping into the environment

which brings up the next point: in a controled reaction there is no net gain of plutonium in the rods ( plutonium is made from uranium ), but in an uncontrolled reaction there is almost no way to estimate HOW MUCH ACTUAL plutonium ther eis to be released, all that can be said is that there is almost certainly more plutonium than the original percentage



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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I agree, how come in light of this, and what Silverlok has been eloquently highlighting about the concerns of a mismatch in the design and age of these reactors/sites with the requirements of MOX fuel, why oh why did Japan decide to run MOX here? Was it simply because of the proximity of the port/transport/economics?
edit on 25-3-2011 by curioustype because: Couldn't get the image on either



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Procharmo
 


Yeah it's not like the US NAVY has some kind of sophisticated F.L.I.R. that would let them have advance notice of corium or overheating or EXACT core temps that would allow them to move to a safe distance well in advance.....oh wait...



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by curioustype
 


Found this about 3 days ago. It was burried about 20 or so pages back.
Enjoy


mdn.mainichi.jp...



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by Procharmo

A nuclear reactor is not a shade tree mechanic DIY project!!!!

It is now.



Now where did I put my ducktape!!!!!

Somehow I think a couple dozen layers would do more good than all that seawater, with far less disastrous consequences. But then again, I am a redneck...

Hmmmm... I seem to remember several posters were ecstatic when they first announced using seawater... where did they get off to, I wonder?

Oh, and welcome to ATS!


TheRedneck

edit on 3/25/2011 by TheRedneck because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by Procharmo
 


Interesting

At Fukushima Daichi,

there was a damage to the emergency diesel generator for n.1 in 2007...no tsunami there

www2.jnes.go.jp...

and a couple of incidents involving Excessive Insertion of the Control Rods resulting in leakage from the valve seat area at our own favourite n.3

www2.jnes.go.jp...
edit on 25-3-2011 by monica86 because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-3-2011 by monica86 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by TheLastStand
oh my god! That is such an awesome deal! And I only have to pay with my life later when the radiation sickness sets in rendering me to a slow and painful death with my flesh falling off my bones and my hair and teeth falling out. Yippy! That is some damned good food considering.


I am going to guess that you missed Mike's explanation of the significance of that gift, right?



You have to look into the mind of the Japanese to understand. Mike laid it out quite nicely actually




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