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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Ev0luti0nist
Another strong quake in Japan today
earthquake.usgs.gov...

when do they stop calling these aftershocks


When the source of the quake is at a different location. As long as they are related to the big one they are aftershocks


Or when it is greater than 1.5 less than the big quake.

9.0-1.5=7.5

Thing is, the reason portions of Japan are submerged may be due to the edge of the Asian plate being held down by the pacific plate. If this is the case, I could snap back into position during yet another quake.

I'd be interested to see some satellite stess analysis of the area near the fault and know if the stress was still showing as building or if it looks released

Something like this.
edit on 25-3-2011 by jadedANDcynical because: Clarification




posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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I am just wondering if they have done anything to contain the water or airborne radiation? What about security in that area? If everyone is evacuated and the plant is chaos what is being done to protect the plutonium on site?

With all the apparent focus on attempting to regain control of the situation I worry that a they are playing a losing game and only continue to raise the stakes.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by marsend

Do you put your head in a microwave

Japan just did. And some (including myself) have been concerned about the placement of nuclear plants in tectonically active areas for quite some time.

But your suggestions are inadequate.

Wind power has a limit. Some areas do not have wind power sufficient to meet their energy needs. Wind turbines are large and require a certain area in which to operate. Place them too close together and they simply don't work as well. There is also the concern of how much natural circulatory energy are we pulling out of the atmosphere... you cannot keep removing energy from a system without reducing the energy in that system, and we do need a certain amount of energy in atmospheric circulation to remain for the sake of the climate.

Solar is a niche production. It is expensive, has poor efficiency, is unreliable, and is plagued with problems converting it to AC power for transmission efficiently. It is great for low-power DC applications in areas where other energy sources are difficult or where emergency power is needed, but it will never be more than a supplement.

Wave energy is probably the best option we have right now, but it too is restricted to certain locations. There aren't many waves crossing Kansas or the Ukraine.

Fossil fuels have worked well for a long time, but political pressures are making them expensive and unpopular, despite evidence that oil is abiotic and continuing discoveries of huge reserves that go untapped. You can thank Al Gore and Jim Hansen for that.

It is also one thing to say "conserve energy" but quite another in practice. The bulk of our power is not used for luxury items, but for lighting to keep our hectic schedules and keep production facilities running to keep up with demand, for heat to allow survival in hostile climates; and for transportation to keep those living in cities from starving. Believe me, as someone who has direct experience with city folk trying to move to the country, they simply can't survive out here. So the only way to effectively make a dent in our energy usage is to allow some people to either starve or to die from exposure. I find both of those unacceptable.

In this political climate, we are constantly forced into these less-than-desirable situations due to those who wish to 'fix' things that are not broken, or by those who want to control others and gain profit by appealing to a false sense of fear. Fix that, and we won't need nuclear power.

Leave it to the politicians and power brokers, and we will need even more dangerous methods before all is said and done. As an example, the average hybrid emits more pollution of more hazardous nature in the form of toxic rare earth and exotic heavy metals during production alone than a gas-burner emits throughout its entire existence. That is not progress.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:52 AM
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OK, an offical "story" report here:

Breaking News : Reactor By Reactor Report - CNN
edition.cnn.com...

Anyone care to compare notes we have compliled and see if the "official story" is the truth?



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by JustMike
"Your civilians in charge are clueless, they're screwing this up, they're potentially turning a limited catastrophe into armageddon for your nation. Get some people in there who know how to use a chain of command and who know how to plan for all contingencies and who will get a plan in place and act on it quickly. We know you don't want our military in there and taking care of this for you. It would be a massive loss of face to your nation. So use your military while you still have a chance!"



I agree 100% After I heard that press release by the Japanese Nuclear safety spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama, I couldn't believe the incompetency of the ones handling the situation.... He had to confer with his team to answer a question... but basically admitted outright that the radiation management and measuring was not only faulty, but the workers were NOT getting critical data needed to keep them safe. These guys were walking in water without boots for crying out loud (the one with boots did not get burns)

Here is my post I was looking for from that press conference


Originally posted by zorgon
UPDATE

Press conference
www.livestation.com... 11:10 pacific time

--- As of March 25th spent fuel pool status... ummm just a second please...
... #2 we have not measured how much water got into the tank
... #3 filling has started
... #4 sea water injected by concrete pump

Evacuation from 1 & 2 as reported in foreign press is false
#3 & 4 yes evacuated We don't know where the workers were... we don't clearly know where they were exposed. They were attempting to hook up the auxiliary pumps

Q&A

1) Where did water come from...?

... source of the water seems to be the reactor core... but we don't know where. Cracks have not been discovered ...vessel still has some pressure ..could have been some sort of leakage ..somewhere but nothing conclusive

2) What about #2?

..the containment could have been compromised... somewhat... but we don't know for sure at this point ...We haven't confirmed #2 500msv recorded ...the scale is different but we have not confirmed

3) How will you proceed in 3

... We don't have any word on how to proceed at this time


News anchor said that it seems they have not got containment as they have said all along


Image of the auxiliary pump where they were trying to work



Conference before answering a question




So there is no word on when any work will resume on #3




3) How will you proceed in 3

... We don't have any word on how to proceed at this time



That has to be one of the scariest statements so far along with this


It said 3.9 million becquerels of radiation was detected from 1 cubic centimeter of water sampled from the floor of the building. The radiation level was about 10,000 times higher than the water inside a normally operating nuclear reactor.

The agency said the water sample indicated it is highly likely the leak comes from the reactor itself, not from the pool storing spent nuclear fuel.

www3.nhk.or.jp...



edit on 25-3-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 

Sorry for slow reply... Had to rush off and get an urgent translation done for someone. (Czech to English.) Anyhow, about your question: it's complicated, because technically Japan doesn't have "soldiers" in the normal sense. They're classified as civil servants, but they're civil servants who happen to voluntarily enlist in the Japan Self Defense Forces and wear uniforms, fly F15s, operate destroyers, drive tanks... Stuff like that...


However, they do have a Ministry of Defense and one heck of budget that goes with it. I think Japan's spending on its JSDF ranks about 6th or 7th in the world if compared to other nations' military spending. So, they've got the people, they've got the training and the equipment, they're just not actually military. Sort of...errrm... kind of...

Okay, they're soldiers (in all but legal technicality) who have sworn to defend their country -- but don't tell anyone, okay? And yes, they are all volunteers. There's no conscription in Japan.

And yes, I think that the PM (as C-I-C) of the JSDF should call in some of their top personnel and have them take charge of this whole Fukushimalistic mess. It's within their province under "disaster relief" so there'd be no legal/consitutional problem.

Edited to add: my apologies, I see you've already had some excellent info from other posters. My fault: I replied without first reading the pages that have accumulated since I was last at the keyboard.

Mike
edit on 25/3/11 by JustMike because: Forgot to dot an "i"...



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:00 PM
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No stars on this post? Sometimes I wonder if anyone is even reading the thread
Need to quote the entire post here as this is critical to show just how criminally inept the management is in this matter


Originally posted by monica86
Another report about the puddle incident.
They thought the dosimeter was out of order
They stayed in the water 50 minutes and we know that the water measurement were 400 mSv per hour...
Very conveniently though the official in charge of measuring radiation level was missing....

www.asahi.com...


" I thought (the dosemeter) was out of order," one of the workers was quoted as saying. The radioactivity level had been low in the basement before. TEPCO has come under fire for failing to properly ensure the safety of the workers trying to bring the nuclear crisis under control. The company has acknowledged that its safety measures were inadequate. .



The workers' dosemeters showed radiation amounts totaling 173 to 180 millisieverts, less than the maximum of 250 millisieverts per year allowed for an emergency situation. But the level at the water's surface was later found to be 400 millisieverts per hour.The workers wore three layers of protective clothing, masks, helmets and gloves. But TEPCO gave them no instructions about their footwear because there were no deep water puddles the previous day. The workers in ordinary work shoes were in the contaminated water for 40 to 50 minutes, and the tainted water had soaked through their clothes to their skin, according to officials.



Industry minister Banri Kaieda criticized TEPCO for the absence of the official in charge of measuring radiation levels



The company was trying to determine where the water came from. According to TEPCO and the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA), the water was found with 3.9 million becquerels of radioactive substances per cubic centimeter, about 10,000 times the level of water used to cool reactor cores. Cobalt-60, iodine-131, cesium-137 and other substances, which do not normally exist in cooling water, were detected, the officials said[


Ah and they claim they are investigating if the water came from an overflow of the Spent Fuel Pool...
That sounds like BS to me. For one because I understood that there is no I131 in spent fuel as it would have already decayed


edit on 25-3-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by monica86

Iodine is not very soluble in water; it typically exhibits itself in gaseous form or as settlement from the air. Cerium reacts violently with water to produce cerium (IV) oxide, which is insoluble. The chances of either of these elements being in the water in appreciable amounts is slim to say the least.

Again, I believe the radiation in the water is coming from deuterium/tritium in the water molecules themselves from absorption of energetic neutrons. The thing about using Bg for measurements is that a Bq is one emission per second, and that tells us little about the actual intensity of the radiation being emitted. Sv defines the actual danger of a particular exposure, and are calculated by weighting the emissions in terms of how dangerous they are to living organisms.

That may be the difference between the 10,000 times and 100,000 times normal radiation levels mentioned earlier... it might be 10,000 times normal measured in Bq and 100,000 times normal measured in Sv. if so, that would also indicate energetic neutrons, since the range of weighting a neutron goes from 5 to 20 times that of a beta particle, based on the neutron's energy.

Of course, that explanation of the discrepancy would only be appropriate if the radiation source was neutron radiation.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by OneisOne
reply to post by TheLastStand
 

You are right, it is predictable!!!

I came across a Kyoto news article today that has the worst spin ever in regards to the change from seawater to saltwater.

As a step to bring the reactors under control, authorities are eager to replace seawater with fresh water in cooling the reactor cores and the pools, as crystallized salt could form a crust on the fuel rods and prevent smooth water circulation, thus diminishing the cooling effect.

english.kyodonews.jp...

I have no doubt that could be true, but they failed to mention that using the seawater made the situation worse because of the corrosive effects. But why share that bad news......


At the beginning of this disaster, they had said that using saltwater/seawater would cause these plants to have to be shut down permanently. And that they had accepted that. Make everything cool enough to seal up permanently.

Now they're trying to make them work again? Even with a crack in the containment? Am I misunderstanding something? Or am I not supposed to remember what the saltwater would do.
This is making less sense every day.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:16 PM
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, Japanese officials are saying that some pressure in the vessel and/or core is evidence against a leak? A boiling teapot has plenty of pressure while expelling a stream of steam. In fact, one could argue that pressure would be required for a leak to expel the levels of radiation discovered.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by bitbytebit
I believe the doctors


I agree


It seems like a few standards, either under 100 or 100 when they compare with the 250 maximum, or 400 when they talk about exceeding. Theres no way this is accurate, and its proven now with the doctors saying that about the workers foot exposure.


And they also neglect to mention that the 250 figure is ANNUAL limit while that 400 figure is hourly. At least CNN got that part right



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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here is an update of the situation at each reactor according to cnn

I just wanted to say this is one of the best and most informative threads I have seen on here.thanks everybody!! CNN reactor by reactor
edit on 25-3-2011 by paradiselost333 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by snowspirit

At the beginning of this disaster, they had said that using saltwater/seawater would cause these plants to have to be shut down permanently. And that they had accepted that. Make everything cool enough to seal up permanently.

Now they're trying to make them work again? Even with a crack in the containment? Am I misunderstanding something? Or am I not supposed to remember what the saltwater would do.
This is making less sense every day.


I think they are trying to restore them for cooling, not to use them as part of a power plant operation. It's my understanding that they have to get the systems working again in order to cool the reactors before they can be sealed. But by using the saltwater they have damaged the systems making it very difficult to get them back online for cooling purposes.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
Thing is, the reason portions of Japan are submerged may be due to the edge of the Asian plate being held down by the pacific plate. If this is the case, I could snap back into position during yet another quake.


Quite possible... the fact that aftershocks are starting to get bigger again is also not a good sign. Thanks for that NASA link, I was not aware of that site
Added to my data list



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by iforget
I am just wondering if they have done anything to contain the water or airborne radiation?


The seawater is draining out into the ocean and has already been recorded showing high levels 30km out. The more water they pouron this plant the more steam and smoke is spewing more radiation into the air...

So no... they are not doing ANYTHING to contain the water or airborne radiation



What about security in that area? If everyone is evacuated and the plant is chaos what is being done to protect the plutonium on site?


The plutonium on site is mixed into the fuel. If the radiation is so high that they have abandoned, good luck to any wanna be plutonium thief




With all the apparent focus on attempting to regain control of the situation I worry that a they are playing a losing game and only continue to raise the stakes.


That has been obvious to us for several days now... but they won't call in the cavalry



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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Industry minister Banri Kaieda criticized TEPCO for the absence of the official in charge of measuring radiation levels.

Above is from an earlier post on this page!

Could you therefor expect, that all the other officials are missing? Are they there dying with the brave workers? Would not countries like America and other modern countries have space suits on the workers as such. Japanese people seem to have this thing with suicide, if I recall history correctly.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 





Fossil fuels have worked well for a long time, but political pressures are making them expensive and unpopular, despite evidence that oil is abiotic and continuing discoveries of huge reserves that go untapped. You can thank Al Gore and Jim Hansen for that.



Slightly off topic but I gave you a star for this one little statement. Al Gore is a political shill paid to jack the oil prices up. Plain and simple. People everywhere fell, and still are falling for it.



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by OneisOne
 



I think they are trying to restore them for cooling, not to use them as part of a power plant operation. It's my understanding that they have to get the systems working again in order to cool the reactors before they can be sealed. But by using the saltwater they have damaged the systems making it very difficult to get them back online for cooling purposes.


I hope you're right. I have no trust in the system, too many shortcuts by too many people, and not enough transparency and accountability. Someone is always trying to slip something past the people, and with a clustercrap like this whole fiasco........



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by burntheships

Still downplayed quite a bit IMO, but that is expected considering the difficulties obtaining information they are also reporting. It does seem like the veil of misinformation is starting to show some signs of wear and tear, though.

Concerning the highly radioactive leak in the #3 turbine room:

He noted that the contamination likely came from the reactor's core, adding there's a possibility of "some sort of leakage." That potentially could come from a crack in the reactor core, though Nishiyama cautioned that there is no definitive answer yet on how the radioactivity got into the basement.
Source: edition.cnn.com...

So there is water from the reactor core in the turbine room, which means that core might be leaking...


TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by liejunkie01
reply to post by TheRedneck
 





Fossil fuels have worked well for a long time, but political pressures are making them expensive and unpopular, despite evidence that oil is abiotic and continuing discoveries of huge reserves that go untapped. You can thank Al Gore and Jim Hansen for that.



Slightly off topic but I gave you a star for this one little statement. Al Gore is a political shill paid to jack the oil prices up. Plain and simple. People everywhere fell, and still are falling for it.



I find this interesting, only watching his version of it, being his doco, inconvenient truth. All I can say he seems more honest than bush and at least can string a sentence together, yes this could indicate he is a cleaver sales man. Please enlighten me, do you have another topic on this? As I guess it ant to do with the quake, useless he is running haarp, which I thought was music :-)
edit on 25-3-2011 by marsend because: typo



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