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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

At the risk of 'not helping' some more... this was game over days ago. Japan and TEPCO just refuse to accept it.

Again, let it melt down, let it go as fast as it can... it will cool by itself in a short time if that is done, and it can be entombed. In the meantime, don't waste your time trying to do the impossible... get the people out! Monitor the radiation at the highest levels, alert, get international aid to the seaports, choppers to airlift out where the seaports are destroyed... any help needed was there from the start.

We had a warship there within, what? 24 hours?

China and Russia are closer, and both offered any aid they could give.

EVACUATE!!!! GET OUT!!!!

This was not Godzilla; this was not a fight that could be won. Radiation doesn't bleed. Now it's become a comedy of errors, with a cast of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.

TheRedneck


I'm way late getting in on this one so I don't know if it's already been pointed out or if the situation has already changed (I'm a few pages behind, trying to catch back up) but has anyone thought about the US contractors who came in to help a while back. Are those guys still on the ground there? If so, does that mean that even they think there's still good to be done here? I mean if anyone were to bug out early & make for the hills it would be those guys since it's not really their fight.




posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:20 PM
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bad thought..

After chernobyl , the increase in health problems as a result of radioactivity exposure could not be firmly established due to the fact that mortality rates in certain areas skyrocketed due to alcoholism and smoking and that life expetancy was actually pretty low in Ukraine for example (as low as 55 - 65 years for adult males). Meaning that many types of solid cancers may not have had the time to develop for certain age groups.

One thing that they managed to establish firmly is the increase of health problems due to psychological stress related to the fear of exposure.....


. Instead, the abundance of health problems in the exposed regions has been tentatively linked to psychological stress related to the disaster (3). Earlier disaster studies, e.g., on the aftermath of the incident with a nuclear reactor at Three Mile Island, Pennsylvania (1979), have demonstrated that signs and symptoms of psychological distress may be measured as long as 6 years after an event (5). Increased mortality from cardiovascular disease attributed to the effects of stress has been reported after the 1976 disaster with highly toxic dioxin at Seveso, Italy (6). In the case of the Chernobyl disaster the occurrence of psychological distress in the exposed population has been documented, but the clinical significance of this is as yet unknown (7-9). See link below for conclusions on this point


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

You understand now why people, this time round, might not be told by their government what happened at the plant and the true extent of contamination until many years from now?
By that time at least the world might be able to get some very good clean statistics....

edit on 21-3-2011 by monica86 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-3-2011 by monica86 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
If there is a super-hot glob of molten fuel, and it meets water, I think we could see something like this, but a whole lot bigger.


Chernobyl Meltdown.

An odd thing happened at Chernobyl. One day the emissions just ceased (not the contamination radiation, but the fuel. They didn't know why and sent in a team of scientists. You have to see the film because you won't believe these guys and what little protection they wore. How that Nova photographer went along is amazing...

Here are a few clips...

Chernobyl Were Did the Nuclear Fuel Go?

The 'Elephants foot', a massive nuclear fuel and sand mass










The 'Elephants foot' showing where it melted through the floor


Drilling into the chamber below the reactor and sending in a camera to search for the fuel






Nuclear Lava


Nuclear Lava

The Day of the Explosion


First image of Explosion taken by helicopter news reporter who was first on the scene

One day the emissions from Chernobyl just stopped. They had no idea why, so sent in scientists to find the answers. That is an amazing video. The length of time they spent inside, the levels they were exposed to and the repeated trips they made wearing almost nothing in protection.


Cross section of reactor before explosion


Explosion rips of top of reactor and crushes reactor down


Entire core melts through bottom of reactor


The molten lava releases and mixes with the sand around the reactor (yellow)


Molten lava burns through concrete floor


Circle marks where the "Elephant's Foot" was found


Molten lava burns through concrete floor and pours down tubes


Molten lava vitrifies (turns to glass from the sand) and cools. Uranium fuel is trapped inside and can no longer become fissionable. However a new examination is showing the glass is deteriorating and water is seeping in again







Inside Chernobyls Sarcophagus
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Chernobyl Disaster Documentary
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:24 PM
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Wonder how this guys research got on...If you can't out run it try live with it

www.dotmed.com...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:33 PM
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Saw this (questionable) statement on NHK ...

Kan: way out of crisis is in sight

Japan's Prime Minister Naoto Kan has said the way out of the crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is in sight, and ordered that all possible measures be taken to resolve the situation. Speaking at a meeting of the government's disaster task force on Monday, Kan said progress has been made little by little by all those making efforts at the risk of their lives.

Kan said more must be done to resolve the crisis but that light can be seen at the end of the tunnel.

Kan emphasized the need to do everything to prevent more damage, and asked all those involved in the effort to do their utmost. Referring to future reconstruction, Kan said he hopes plans ensure that Japan is vigorous and a safe place to live when it overcomes the unprecedented disaster.

Kan also said he's happy to hear that 2 people were rescued on Sunday in Ishinomaki City from a house that had collapsed in the quake and tsunami. He said everyone is rejoicing at the news of the saving of precious lives while the country experiences enormous damage from the disaster.
Monday, March 21, 2011 18:47 +0900 (JST)

Note: Emphasis in quote added by poster (i.e. me)

Apparently, PM Kan didn't realise that "the light at the end of the tunnel" might be a the glow of radioactive material.

I sincerely hope he's right, but my "crystal ball" doesn't see that far out.

edit on 2011-3-21 by EnhancedInterrogator because: spelling,f ormating, etc.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by monica86

FYI
here is the termal imagining of the 128 degrees reading




investmentwatchblog.com... rom-nhk/


edit on 21-3-2011 by monica86 because: (no reason given)


Interesting pics!

If reactor 4 has no fuel in it then I guess the heat must be coming from the spent fuel/pool. Reactor 3 also appears to have heat in similar areas, albeit at higher temps.

Whatever is causing the heat in 2 is heating up the whole building nicely.

I get the feeling that the reports coming from Tepco and the Japanese government are being worded carefully to not reveal the truth, whilst at the same time not tell outright lies.


Japan's defense minister says the surface temperatures of all 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant are lower than 100 degrees Celsius.


Source

What surface is being referred to here? That statement sounds like he's referring to the outside of the reactor (implying there's an inside) to me.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by mikellmikell
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


I read somewhere a while back they had new pumps and such and were going to tie into the old system and bybass the old stuff. Don't remember where I read it but it makes more sense than trying to get stuff thats been under water working unless it was designed to get wet



Not knowing whether you are talking about the need to cool the fuel in the reactors or cooling the spent fuel in the fuel pit, I'll offer the following.

1. The possible breached reactor vessels pose a unique problem in that the main coolant loop is a closed system. The water in this system (the primary system) is radioactivly contaminated and is never supposed to mix with water in the secondary system. The secondary system is the system where steam is created in the steam generator to power the turbines which make electricity. That's the basic operation. Now, the reason it would be very difficult to "bypass the old stuff" is that all of the main coolant system is, at least in the pants of which I am familiar, is located in close proximity to the reactor vessel. They are all in the same shielded volume. The main coolant systems I am used to are fully welded systems. There is no place to install a jumper to bypass the old pumps in order to begin water circulation over the core. If the reactor vessel itself is cracked, the system not only loses coolant water, it loses pressure. I know it's called a BWR, but the water in the main coolant loop is not intended to boil. The water that boils and creates steam is in the secondary system......on the steam generator. The water in the coolant loop is kept under high pressure so if does not boil. We don't want the water in the vessel to boil because we want the fuel to be continuously covered with water. There really is not much that can be done to cool this fuel if the main coolant loop will not hold it's water. The radiation levels in the area of the coolant loop and its piping would be so high that a person could not work in it for any length of time to make several cuts into a highly contaminated system in a water proof suit to install jumpers. Reactor compartments are posted as exclusion area when it is operating. That means no one is allowed in the space where the reactor is located. And that is all due to the dose rate and neutron exposure.

2. The spent fuel pits have their own water circulating system separate from the main coolant loop discussed above. They also don't have the containment around them that the reactor does. A person can look down into the pool of water on top of the spent fuel. I know, because I have done it numerous times. The problem here is that with out air tight containment, and with out any electricity to circulate it, the existing water will boil away. Subsequently, any water dumped on it will be transformed fairly quickly into steam, and the steam will go into the atmosphere.

My guess and that of others in this thread, is that the water being dumped by the helos was being dumped on the spent fuel and not the vessels. Dumping water from the air onto the vessels would probably do no good at all to cool the fuel in them.

I'm sorry of this reply is elementary and long to some of you, but others may learn a bit.

Also, if any of my post is wrong please correct. I am by no means an expert but have been working around it for a decent amount of time.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Thanks so much for those sarcophagus pics!!

Way rad... I had watched a great documentary about Chernobyl...

That photographer that took the first images should be a European hero... the fact he lived for so long after going through all of that first hand reporting and exposure... is just crazy. Definitely one of the bravest men... ever. Did such a great service in that crisis.

Goes to show that if the fuel melts down though, means bad news. Do we have any diagrams similar to those cross cuts showing what exactly is under the reactor cores? Does it have that similar labyrinth of pipes and levels? Or is it just straight into rock after a foundation of sorts...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


Several typos in the above. It's not easy to fix on my iPad.......sorry.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Interesting images and I have seen them before... The fuel spread out and reaction eased apparently.

That reactor had about 180 tons of fuel in it. And it was a completely different design.

#3 Japan reactor has about 90 tons of MOX fuel.. According to TEPCO reports the Daiichi complex had a total of 1760 metric tons of fresh and used nuclear fuel on site. Used fuel rods are stored in the reactor structures in pools.

The other active reactors have approximately 90 to 100 tons of fuel in them.. And the design is radically different from the Russian design... There is no place for a meltdown to spread out, only a bowl below the reactor core...



That is why they haven't already entombed these and moved on, because they have to control and cool it for as long as possible, it will melt right through that bottom and into the earth if they don't.

In my opinion of course. They must continue all out efforts to supply consistent and constant coolant to these reactors.

What happened in Russia in 86, does not compare to this in a multitude of ways.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Another question I've had is that with the tables I've seen, and in some articles of the past they mentioned that the fuel within the reactors had already reached 70% damaged in Reactor 1, 33% in 2, and "Unknown" for 3... has it been specified, exactly what they mean by 'damaged'?

The article in question that states the damage is here from March 15

Japan Quake Reactor Damage

It doesn't give a definition of what damaged would mean, and how would they be able to measure that? I've just seen this stat listed and wondered what it could mean... as far as I know, if it's 'damaged' it's melting...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by Fractured.Facade
 





There is no place for a meltdown to spread out, only a bowl below the reactor core...



That better be one HELL of a BOWL.

edit on 21-3-2011 by Wookiep because: To emphasize "hell" in caps.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by Wookiep
 


As was discovered much, much earlier in the thread (totally unfindable now, LOL) there are reports that the "bowl" is made of graphite.

Now, graphite's great for impeding reactions.....but also flammable, right? I don't remember if we ever decided whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.
edit on 21-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:23 PM
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Interesting article.
one of TEPCO's security guards is angry....
He was on duty when the tsunamy hit
Now he says

"Now I just feel hatred towards TEPCO," he says. "It is very difficult for me to say this since I have worked for them for 18 years. But I just think they should come clean with all the information they have."


Another interesting observation from an analyst at Temple University in Tokyo


kingston says there clearly is also a cultural problem throughout corporate Japan. "There is a tendency to avoid giving bad information upwards. And so, the people who are [in a] decision-making capacity don't sometimes get the information they need," Kingston says.



www.npr.org...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by 00nunya00
reply to post by Wookiep
 


As was discovered much, much earlier in the thread (totally unfindable now, LOL) there are reports that the "bowl" is made of graphite.

Now, graphite's great for impeding reactions.....but also flammable, right? I don't remember if we ever decided whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.
edit on 21-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)


I hadn't read that, thanks for the clarity! I really don't know if it's good or bad either but since it's flammable, that wouldn't seem to make sense either... The engineers who designed this place would have some good reason to use graphite....right?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by monica86
 

Here's another quote from that story ...

"Japanese people are not the type of people who rise up and stage a coup d'etat," he says. "They just keep quiet and die. People in my town just outside the exclusion zone are being told to stay inside. That doesn't make sense. How many people do they want to kill?"



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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I feel for all the Japanese people in these difficult times. I am amazed that they are harvesting field crops during a nuclear crisis. I also wonder if the spinach is 27x the safe level, what would the level radiation in those harvesting it be?
As for radiation at the dairies, that is very sad as many small farms (not all) I have been around their cows are pets and losing a whole herd of cows their land to radiation would add deeply to the loss they are feeling during this horrendous disaster.

Please take a moment of silence to reflect upon or pray for the people of Japan.

May the world leaders move swiftly to evacuate them while it still may be possible.
edit on 21-3-2011 by AlaskanDad because: typo



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by Wookiep
 


There really is only one way to find out for sure, lets don't and say we did eh?

A 90 ton white hot blob 3,000 to 5,000 degrees could melt its way through just about anything... The only thing that can prevent this is cooling it now.

It is what it is... I'm still hoping they can get those pumps running in time.
edit on 21-3-2011 by Fractured.Facade because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by AlaskanDad
I feel for all the Japanese people in these difficult times. I am amazed that they are harvesting field crops during a nuclear crisis. I also wonder if the spinach is 27x the safe level, what would the level radiation in those harvesting it be?
As for radiation at the dairies, that is very sad as many small farms (not all) I have been around their cows are pets and losing a whole herd of cows their land to radiation would add deeply to the loss they are feeling during this horrendous disaster.

Please take a moment of silence to reflect upon or pray for the people of Japan.

May the world leaders move swiftly to evacuate them while it still may be possible.
edit on 21-3-2011 by AlaskanDad because: typo


But hey... even with all this going along, Japan'll still compensate the farmers for whatever losses in profits caused by this... with whatever their currency is worth following this...

They'll do what they can, they are definitely concerned about the well being of the farmers and such... which is good to hear, hopefully they receive a ton of humanitarian effort on behalf of their extreme losses.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 
Good post!
I tried to touch on the primary/secondary loop concept much earlier in the thread when TEPCO started spraying the outside of the reactors in the idea of cooling the core. Not a very effective way to do it.




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