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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


The implication is that they were running the reactor 'faster' than its planned capacity through using fuel rods that were 'hotter' (enriched) more than stated or designed for.

As I understand it, reactor 3 was the only one using MOX. 1, 2 & 4 were supposed to be using Low Enriched Uranium. Yet all four reactors had severe overheat problems where hydrogen gas was being produced from a reaction with the seawater/boron mix and the fuel rod casing.

It looks to me like all active reactors were being run beyond safety limits.

What point is it designing a safety shut down (scramming) procedure for a reactor if it can never actually shut down?




posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by Ektar
 


After another search...I can find nothing about this now...
so may have been a reporter confused of something...I would like to think they would mention it if they had some missing...

Again my bet is it didn't happen
I don't know if it related, but I remember a post in this thread regarding missing containers. I remember them being referred to as 'drums' of 'waste' and thought to be radioactive. They were supposed to have been washed into the sea. There was a link as I recall.
I am not set up to go looking for it, but my guess that was in the first 75 pages.


Good luck to the poor buggers who find that box. "Hey, what's in here? Looks like rods or something.... ummmmm, why are my hands melting? Why is your face falling off......?!"



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:20 PM
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I am guessing it was closer to what happened at Chernobyl.

The image below from the Telegraph video is what concerns me... they sure look like fuel rods scattered all over the place.



In the Chernobyl video it shows the Russian scientist climbing over such a pile of rods to get into the reactor area.

Gotta say those Russians are crazy, but dang, they are some tough dudes




edit on 20-3-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


It's true that a reactor doesn't shut down immediately when the control rods are inserted (scramming) but the process of shutdown is initiated and the decay heat should not be able to rise to the point of loss of reactor integrity, even with loss of cooling.

What we are seeing indicates a loss of integrity of the fuel rod outer shell and therefore a temperature rise to over 1,200 degrees. This should not be able to happen.


edit on 20/3/2011 by chr0naut because: 'cause you can't shut down a rector, by gum!


So you're saying that without coolant the decay heat should not have been able to do this? I thought the problem was the initial loss of coolant, but you are saying even with the loss of coolant the cores should not have been able to heat up. How could the fuel rods in the reactor have had integrity loss if the coolant wasn't a factor? Yet, this has happened on more than one reactor there. How is this possible?


because as chr0naut mentioned its possible that the reactor was operating as a breeder reactor instead of a bwr (boiling water reactor)

I think that a breeder reactor is always walking a line between melting and working (ie higher temp and output), so a standard insertion of cooling rods is not enough to begin a full shutdown, outside additional measures must be added (this is just my brain knowledge, I dont' know how correct I am, I havn't read anything yet)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Wertwog
 


The implication is that they were running the reactor 'faster' than its planned capacity through using fuel rods that were 'hotter' (enriched) more than stated or designed for.

As I understand it, reactor 3 was the only one using MOX. 1, 2 & 4 were supposed to be using Low Enriched Uranium. Yet all four reactors had severe overheat problems where hydrogen gas was being produced from a reaction with the seawater/boron mix and the fuel rod casing.

It looks to me like all active reactors were being run beyond safety limits.

What point is it designing a safety shut down (scramming) procedure for a reactor if it can never actually shut down?


I thought you said the problems started before cooling attempts and had to do with the rod integrity. Would 'over clocking' the reactors cause this loss of integrity and then when they had to be scrammed they were hotter than they should be, so overheated and needed cooling via the seawater mix.

Are you also saying that the reactor cores have restarted? What does this mean?

Thanks once again for bearing with me. I'm really trying to understand the specific details of what you are offering here. It's great to have your insight.
edit on 20-3-2011 by Wertwog because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Zorgon is that photo of the scattered rods the Fukushima plant?



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by JackBauer
That explosion i.....The second explosion as shown in the screenshots, is highly concentrated in one column directly upwards. I cannot understand how a building full of hydrogen would explode and be so neat, and straight.

edit on 3/20/2011 by JackBauer because: (no reason given)


is that screenshot of the big bang fukushima?.
edit on 20-3-2011 by bitbytebit because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


A squib explosive.

The North Korean nuclear bomb was probably a squib.

A nuclear squib would look like a nuclear assisted, fast buring, fire, like a rocket engine going off.



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Zorgon is that photo of the scattered rods the Fukushima plant?


As I understand yes... Been at work and haven't followed up on it. Someone posted the video a while back... I will see if I can find it

ETA Yup here it is I did remember to save it


www.telegraph.co.uk...

Anyone out there can capture this one?
edit on 20-3-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Wertwog
 


A squib explosive.

The North Korean nuclear bomb was probably a squib.

A nuclear squib would look like a nuclear assisted, fast buring, fire, like a rocket engine going off.


Would this happen within the reactor vessel once the puddle gets to a certain temperature or once it melts through the vessel?

How likely is this event to occur at #3 do you figure?



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Zorgon is that photo of the scattered rods the Fukushima plant?


As I understand yes... Been at work and haven't followed up on it. Someone posted the video a while back... I will see if I can find it


okiecowboy has sent that image to the Telegraph to see if they can verify it. Redneck thinks it is probably not rods, but dam, it sure looks like it. All straight and not bendy like the rest of the wreckage. I wonder if the power of the explosion sent these things flying and scattered them all around. I mentioned this on reuters and one of the xperts posted a response saying the pools were too deep for this to happen.

Original post
edit on 20-3-2011 by Wertwog because: added a link



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:37 PM
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Don't just mean to change the subject, But check this out..

NHK Says Water Used To Douse Reactors May Have Leaked Into The Ocean
Tyler Durden's picture
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/20/2011 21:13 -0400

* Japan



Last week we asked what could possibly be worse than a "grave" situation (as Fukushima was described by the IAEA). We now have our answer:

*WATER DOUSED ON REACTORS MAY HAVE LEAKED TO OCEAN, NHK SAYS
*NHK CITES JAPAN NUCLEAR AND INDUSTRIAL SAFETY AGENCY

And scene, as mutated, ill-tempered seabass and sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads rise out of the ocean take over the mainland.

www.zerohedge.com...
edit on 20-3-2011 by rancher1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:38 PM
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From Kyodo;

english.kyodonews.jp...


Kan cancels visit to quake-hit area due to bad weather
TOKYO, March 21, Kyodo

Prime Minister Naoto Kan canceled early Monday a half-day visit to one of the areas devastated by the massive earthquake and tsunami earlier this month as well as a base for workers tackling the crisis at the quake-crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, due to bad weather, government officials said.

Kan was scheduled to leave his office by helicopter in the early morning to visit Ishinomaki in Miyagi Prefecture to meet people affected by the calamitous earthquake and tsunami that hit the country's northeastern region on March 11.

He had also planned to visit ''J Village,'' a vast soccer training facility about 20 kilometers from the nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture now being used by firefighters and others responsible for containing the emergency situation there. The plant faces overheating of its reactors and radiation leaks.

The Japan Meteorological Agency says rain is forecast for the area Monday and the government officials say the conditions would make it difficult for the helicopter to land and lift off.

Kan saw the nuclear plant and other affected areas from the air a day after the 9.0 magnitude quake and ensuing tsunami devastated the country's northeast coast.

Since then, the crisis facing the power station has greatly escalated. The government has set an exclusion zone covering areas within a 20-km radius of the plant and has urged people within 20 to 30 km to stay indoors.

==Kyodo


Fukushima, Japan WeatherSave This Location
Updated: Mar 21, 2011, 10am Local TimeUPDATE DATAOverview

Right Now Next 36 Hours
Today Tonight Tomorrow

Mostly Cloudy Partly Cloudy Mostly Cloudy PM Showers
41°F 38° 29° 36°
Feels Like: 36°
Get FREE weather on your desktop High Low High
20% Chance of Precip:
20% Chance of Rain:
30%
Wind:
From NW at 7mph Wind:
WNW at 12 mph Wind:
WSW at 8 mph Wind:
SW at 9 mph


Chance of rain 20-20-30%, wind 7-12-8-8mph...hmmm, quite a storm brewing. But I'm thinking it wasn't RAIN SHOWERS Kan was worried about, more like changing wind patterns driving radiation into the windshield of his chopper. Maybe he didn't hear that Tepco cancelled the proposed radioactive steam train from Fuk-Ichi to Tokyo on Monday.

www.weather.com...
edit on 20-3-2011 by mrbillshow because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by bitbytebit

Originally posted by JackBauer
That explosion i.....The second explosion as shown in the screenshots, is highly concentrated in one column directly upwards. I cannot understand how a building full of hydrogen would explode and be so neat, and straight.

edit on 3/20/2011 by JackBauer because: (no reason given)


keep in mind the explosion screen shot is of chernobyl, no explosion of that type has happened at fukushima yet.


That collection of screenshots is definitely from fukushima, it was the second reactor building to explode. It was broadcast on TV several times.



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by bitbytebit
keep in mind the explosion screen shot is of chernobyl, no explosion of that type has happened at fukushima yet.


Ummm no that explosion sequence was Fukushima. That is the whole point of my comparison. I don't believe they still have a pool of fuel rods at #3



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by Wertwog

It might be possible if the control rods did not fully engage properly, something that I have alluded to before.

The control rods are machined to exacting tolerances, ten-thousandths of an inch in the US (make the corresponding conversion to the metric system). They fit in areas with tolerances measured in thousandths of an inch. It also takes a certain amount of time for the control rods to engage fully.

Now assume that the earthquake detectors go off, and there is an automatic SCRAM. As soon as the detectors trigger, the control rods begin insertion into the fuel rod assembly. But the quake started before the detectors could trigger the SCRAM; any network communication takes a finite amount of time. Add together the time it took for the sensors to detect motion, the network to propagate the signal to SCRAM, and the time it took for the control rods to engage, all while the quake is starting, and the question becomes: is that enough time for an 8.9 quake to warp the fragile control rods beyond that thousandths-of-an-inch tolerance?

I say maybe.

The control rods could have engaged partially, or could have been warped enough to harm their ability to effectively isolate the fuel rods from each other. That would have led to increased decay rates and increased decay heat.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


If that is not the most absolute scary crazy thing I have ever heard, its a second close for sure.

Those things look all even in size, length, and width.

What else could they be???



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by PopeyesForearm

Originally posted by bitbytebit

Originally posted by JackBauer
That explosion i.....The second explosion as shown in the screenshots, is highly concentrated in one column directly upwards. I cannot understand how a building full of hydrogen would explode and be so neat, and straight.

edit on 3/20/2011 by JackBauer because: (no reason given)


keep in mind the explosion screen shot is of chernobyl, no explosion of that type has happened at fukushima yet.


That collection of screenshots is definitely from fukushima, it was the second reactor building to explode. It was broadcast on TV several times.


Yes, it was fukushima. Looks very different than what I am told a hydrogen explosion would look like and also what the other explosion looked like - it does have a very dark mushroomy appearance. I think at one point Redneck pointed out that this looked a little like a plutonium explosion but I can't find that post ... back about 100 pages or so. But I think the "squib" explosion chr0naut is referring to has not yet occurred.



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 



Anyone out there can capture this one?


I can't even get the video anymore. Is anyone else having trouble getting this video from the link provided?



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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Latest TEPCO press-release ...
apparently dated/timed about 2 hours ago ...
(no direct English release yet, so Google-Translated provided)

News and conditions in plants Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (now 9:00 am on March 21) [Japanese]

News and conditions in plants Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (now 9:00 am on March 21) [Google-Translated to Engrish]

.. don't see anything really "new" in there, so I won't bother to quote anything.



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