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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by odd1out
 





I am perplexed a nuclear regulatory commission anywhere on this PLANET could have allowed literally 680 TONS of spent fuel in any location, particularly THIS location. And to be stored in such a manner...look at the facts, the design is OBSOLETE and frankly, fell way short in 1971 if anyone had taken the time to consider the possibilities.


When I started researching this very topic.. I about fell out of my chair when I saw some of the amounts stored in the same manner in the U.S at some of our plants




posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by odd1out
With regards to the issue of power, pumps and the basic failed logic since this disaster began...

I have been sitting here reviewing every detail I can remember, going over this thread, and a few others. There are times when I waver in my resolve; perhaps I am over reacting? Other times, I am convinced that this is about as serious as it gets. If anyone saw Rachel Maddow tonight on CNBC...well if you saw that show...let's just say the amount of spent nuclear fuel at that plant is ASTOUNDING as revealed on MSNBC.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I am perplexed a nuclear regulatory commission anywhere on this PLANET could have allowed literally 680 TONS of spent fuel in any location, particularly THIS location. And to be stored in such a manner...look at the facts, the design is OBSOLETE and frankly, fell way short in 1971 if anyone had taken the time to consider the possibilities.

I'm trying not to let my tin-foil hat show, but read between the lines...



Factor in several explosions, fires, all sorts of smoke and steam emanating from the crippled plant...Here is the first blast at reactor #1

www.youtube.com...

Did you notice the concussive upward arc, which appears as a white crescent? Are we to suppose that this blast spared the containment for the spent nuclear rods at reactor #1 ??? Ok, now read this...


"On Saturday, an explosion blew off the roof and upper walls of the building housing the facility's No. 1 reactor, stirring alarm over a possible major radiation release, although the government later said the explosion had not affected the reactor's core vessel and that only a small amount of radiation had been released."



"Government spokesman Yukio Edano, the Associated Press writes, "says the radiation around the plant did not rise after the blast — but instead is decreasing. He added that pressure in the reactor was also decreasing. Pressure and heat have been building at the nuclear reactor since an earthquake and tsunami Friday caused its cooling system to fail."


www.npr.org...

Oh really, PRESSURE DECREASED??? What a frickin miracle....thank god for that explosion...geez, it's great that the explosion didn't crack the reactor's containment to cause that divine intervention!!!

Here is the second blast...Did you notice the TONS of building parts that rise...oh, a few hundred feet, BEFORE free-falling back down onto the reactor??? SPLASH!!!! Ah, refreshing!!!!

www.guardian.co.uk...

Here is a diagram of the inside of the white cubed shaped containment buildings:

tylerbaird.com...

Notice where the spent rods are stored...on the top right, just above the dome shaped tip of the reactor containment. Notice that the shell of the building IS THE CONTAINMENT for the pools cooling the spent rods???

Have you seen these pictures???
insideireland.ie...

What IS MAKING all that SMOKE....What's in it???? Where's it heading???

I hope you see what I am getting at here...This was a level 7 incident from day one. They could, and can not possibly be giving honest radiation readings from that plant. It can not be possible that the concussion of the very first blast at #1 reactor did not send all that water submerging the spent rods housed there, into the four winds and thus exposing the rods.

Hence, you have just seen the biggest dog & pony show on the planet...there's been too much radiation for anyone, to do much of anything since the beginning.

What happens to the rods after exposure...well, read the thread!

Go ahead, refute everything I said...

Redneck, what do you think???
edit on 17-3-2011 by odd1out because: (no reason given)


Totally agree. When I saw the 1st interview with Hillary I just knew she was lying in the press conference. She was very shifty also.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:12 AM
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Could they have gotten radiation sickness?? This is so sad.

14 patients die following transfer to evacuation center

english.kyodonews.jp...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by okiecowboy
reply to post by odd1out
 





I am perplexed a nuclear regulatory commission anywhere on this PLANET could have allowed literally 680 TONS of spent fuel in any location, particularly THIS location. And to be stored in such a manner...look at the facts, the design is OBSOLETE and frankly, fell way short in 1971 if anyone had taken the time to consider the possibilities.


When I started researching this very topic.. I about fell out of my chair when I saw some of the amounts stored in the same manner in the U.S at some of our plants


There is TWO causes for that…….

The ban on reprocessing…….

The fight that everyone has put up against yucca mountain, and all it’s predecessors.

The environmentalists have gave no options.(Which was their whole plan in the first place.)

So, when damage results from such a situation, then the environmentalist will point fingers and say, “I told you so” when they was the people that caused the situation.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:21 AM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Thanx
You know it seems to match up to the realtime one I have been using. That spike your link is showing showed up on that other site March 15th also. So I feel confident of the readings.

All of this makes me feel much better. This is all just awful. I was a youngster around 3 Mile Island so I know how they feel. Except they have it a bajillion times worse.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:24 AM
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Kyodo is saying that the Japanese government and Edano are going to meet with the press at 6pm. (I think thats about 30 minutes from now but not 100% sure).

Im guessing they are still going to say its under control/everythings fine......Will they be more forthcoming this time?

english.kyodonews.jp...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by Vitchilo
 


Actually, the Soviet Union's response/honesty took about as long as ours with the DeepWater Horizon, Katrina, and actually, Japan still has time yet to get honest by these past time-tables. The SU reacted pretty much the same as Japan is right now.

We ALL have to realize once again, a CORPORATE GOVERNMENT is at the wheel in this case...I really do not fully place the blame on Japan...TEPCO is the one providing the "FACTS" Government oversight would be nice in these cases, but look what else has to be managed in Japan right now!

Japan has enough on their plate right now, I would imagine the government could only hope that TEPCO would take this seriously and be honest. The prime minister, secretary, emperor, etc, are not in the BUSINESS of nuclear power.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:25 AM
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There is a real possibility that criticality can be reached in the spent fuel pools.

Paradoxically, adding water to try and cool the fuel in these pools at this point might be the worst thing to do - and could result in a supercritical event.

I have a background in physics and while I'm not a total expert in nuclear physics, have a pretty good understanding of these phenomenon.

I have no idea why there isn't any information about these realities in the news.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in more detailed information about this.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:30 AM
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This is insane.

Gov't ups permissible radiation level


The Japanese government has revised upward the permissible level of radiation exposure for workers at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The health and labor ministry says that it raised the limit by a factor of 2.5, to 250 millisieverts, in cases of emergency.


The Soviet Union did the same thing. They raised the ``safe level`` by 5 times back then...

And when they said ``everything was fine``... already 10 000 people were hospitalized due to radiation.

The Soviet guy who did the study back then and reported to the IAEA estimated that 40 000 people would die due to radiation over the years... and of course the western world refused to accept this since it would destroy the nuclear energy industry... based on the Hiroshima model... but the west just accepted 4 000 dead as a result... Even France denied anything from Chernobyl ever went over the country...

Know what the Soviet guy in charge of the report did later on? Committed suicide.


How many people will die from thyroid cancer in Japan, China, Russia, Korea, the US and Canada because of this? We'll never know.

How many babies will be born mutated? How many pregnancies will end up in miscarriages? Again, we'll never know.
edit on 17-3-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny

So, when damage results from such a situation, then the environmentalist will point fingers and say, “I told you so” when they was the people that caused the situation.


ETA: I re-read your post, and I think I misinterpreted some things. I see you were commenting on the US fuel pools, not the Daiichi ones. My argument below still applies, but I retract my comments about feeling you're blaming environmentalists for the Japanese situation.

Respectfully, this isn't the blame thread. Also, I think it's a bit illogical to put the *sole* responsibility on those who opposed the entire thing in the first place. I believe the majority of the responsibility was on those who developed, sold and underplayed the dangers of nuclear power and then did little to think in the long-term about its effects.

I can't blame environmentalists for opposing further development and advancement of nuclear power. It seems they were right. And to say that Japan has had to deal with the same amount of anti-nuclear lobbying as the US has is illogical. Most Japanese are very supportive of it, and always have been. These designs and stupid decisions were implemented by them, not by anyone else or under pressure from anyone else. They chose to ignore the warnings. This is the fault of Tepco and the Japanese government, period.
edit on 17-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2011 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:35 AM
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From BBC

www.bbc.co.uk...


0825: Low concentrations of radioactive particles are heading eastwards from Fukushima towards North America, a Swedish official is quoted as saying by Reuters. Lars-Erik De Geer, research director at the Swedish Defence Research Institute, a government agency, was citing data from a network of international monitoring stations, but stressed the levels were not dangerous for people.


Im not sure if these particles are from the first explosion/second/ or which one.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by PhysicsAlive
There is a real possibility that criticality can be reached in the spent fuel pools.

Paradoxically, adding water to try and cool the fuel in these pools at this point might be the worst thing to do - and could result in a supercritical event.

I have a background in physics and while I'm not a total expert in nuclear physics, have a pretty good understanding of these phenomenon.

I have no idea why there isn't any information about these realities in the news.

Please let me know if anyone is interested in more detailed information about this.


Let-er rip. I'm riveted



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:40 AM
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NEWS ADVISORY: Edano to meet press after meetings on quake, nuke plant

english.kyodonews.jp...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:41 AM
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reply to post by WWJFKD
 


Here you go:

To keep things simple, water is intended to serve a very different purpose in a reactor core than in the spent fuel pool.

Water is pretty good at absorbing dangerous gamma radiation, so by keeping the used fuel rods under many feet of water, workers in the plant are shielded from the gamma radiation they are emitting. The water of course also keeps the rods from getting too hot.

In the reactor core, water actually serves to make the nuclear reaction go critical. I won't go into all the technical details (see the article below for them - it seems pretty well written), but water serves to make the fuel rods go into critical reaction. Without the water in most (maybe all) modern reactor designs, criticality simply won't happen (the rods might still get hot enough to melt down without water, of course).

The water does this by slowing down neutrons emitted as the nuclear fuel undergoes its normal radioactive decay. Because of some very complex quantum mechanics, these slower moving neutrons are more likely to interact/collide with other radioactive atoms in adjacent fuel rods, as opposed to just "flying through" adjacent fuel rods. This collision/interaction causes radioactive decay that results in more neutrons being emitted. Because these new neutrons are also slowed by the water, they are also more likely to result in additional fission, etc, etc. This is what is referred to as the chain reaction of nuclear fission. Because of this phenomenon of slowing the neutrons, water in the reactor is necessary in order for the fuel to reach criticality, where the fission reaction is stable at a certain level.

Now we get to the problem that might be happening now that the spent fuel pool has gone dry.

In addition to slowing down neutrons and hence making them more likely to cause fission, water also absorbs/blocks neutrons. These two things result in the opposite effect. In the reactor core, the fuel rods are configured to be very close together that few neutrons get absorbed by the water before reaching a neighboring fuel rod. This makes the effect of slowing the neutrons outweigh the effect of absorbing them, and hence we get criticality and a nice chain reaction of fission.

Normally in the pool, the spent rods are stored far enough apart so that the effect from slowing down the neutrons is far outweighed by the amount of neutrons that are absorbed before they reach a neighboring used fuel rod, since the neutrons have to travel so far to reach a neighboring rod.

With no water in the pool, the outside casing of the fuel rods will have begun to burn and also to oxidize with the air. This can cause it to become very brittle and crack, and the fuel pellets might be falling out and collecting on the bottom of the pool. A bunch of pellets might be collecting in piles which are geometrically more favorable for criticality. There could also be puddles of molten fuel collecting, which might have a geometry more favorable for criticality. Additionally, the force of the explosions likely knocked the fuel rods around, and some might have been knocked closer together. In this case, if water is added back to the pool it could cause things to go into a critical reaction that would generate huge amounts of heat and radiation and be extremely, extremely bad.

So, I'm afraid that we might have a chicken-and-egg problem on our hands. Without adding water the used fuel will burn and melt, and release insane amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere. Adding water could cause the fuel to go critical - which would be a whole other level of badness.

The extreme and sudden radiation spike that forced all workers to temporarily evaporate may have been due to used fuel that was submerged under the last of the water in the pool going critical. The heat of the critical reaction would have very quickly turned the last of the water to steam, and then the chain reaction would have ended without the presence of water. So, that spike seems like evidence that my above theory is correct.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:43 AM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Mr. Tranny, I agree with you to some extent. I have no feeling one way or the other about nuclear power. I think most people would be surprised at how much it is used. It's unfortunate that our use of energy and our demand for it, make it among the necessary evils.

The Fukushima Plant though really can't be defended in my eyes...the design, the placement, the past history, the management...

Problem is, there is always a corporation behind the reactor and big money, there is always an over-bearing safety commission, there will always be an opposing public group and environmental groups, always will there be human error, and for all of these reasons humans taking shortcuts and for fudging the numbers.

Ideally, nuclear energy could be ideal...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:44 AM
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So has anyone come up with this as a way to cool the plant...helium in liquid form? It is much colder than liquid nitrogen and could be pumped in or I would think they could drop it in as well in the form of a bucket that drops with it (although I wouldn't wanna waste it with missed drops) but it has much more cooling potential than anything else I've heard.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:45 AM
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reply to post by buni11687
 




Im not sure if these particles are from the first explosion/second/ or which one.

Well let's hope it's ``only`` radioactive dust and not actual plutonium/uranium... because one microgram (1/1 000 000 of a gram) of plutonium will kill a human... and guess what, there's probably dozens of TONS of plutonium at those plants.

One gram of plutonium can kill a MILLION people.

And there's 1000g in one kg... and 1000 kg in a ton.

One ton of plutonium can kill a TRILLION humans.


"If you absorb one microgram of plutonium in your organism for sure you will get cancer," says Sortir du Nucleaire (Phasing Out of the Nuclear Age) coordinator Anne-Laure Meladeck.

edit on 17-3-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:45 AM
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This nuke emergency is seriously shaking the whole world. Some nations have even banned the importation of Japanese foods. The longer this crisis persists, the less hope I have.


But I continue to pray that things will work out for the better.



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by WWJFKD
 


Also - here is an independent article discussing the same phenomenon I'm concerned about:

www.dcbureau.org...



posted on Mar, 17 2011 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by PhysicsAlive
 


Excellent post. I will read more. I am enjoying my pseudo-education in nuclear energy this week. I wish the circumstances were a different, not so perverse a curiousity.

I don't think all of these points were discussed about the fuel rods, some of them were. What might you add about spent rods containing MOX fuel...? Any difference?




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