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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 1394.htm
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posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by qmantoo
 


"Does anyone know what the plan for this moving the fuel rods is going to be?"

Geez, I'm sorry gang. I should have posted this before but I thought everybody knew? They're going to move what they can extract across the road to the CSFP, without emptying the CSFP first. Yup! They're playing Russian roulette with all six bullets in the revolver pointed at our heads.

On page 2 :
"The fuel assemblies have to be first pulled from the racks they are stored in, then inserted into a heavy steel chamber. This operation takes place under water before the chamber, which shields the radiation pulsating from the rods, can be removed from the pool and lowered to ground level.

The chamber is then transported to the plant's common storage pool in an undamaged building where the assemblies will be stored.
www.nytimes.com...

Undamaged? Didn't Z mention that this was where they started spraying the green anti rad stucco?
I remember something about the fuel crane being damaged/off the track as well, and who can forget that infa-red heat signiture of the CSFP at the beginning? From one of the posters on this thread way back. Sorry, I can't remember who?
Top oval circle is the CSFP heat exchangers in the first week after the quake.


It's in such good shape that we only have 2 pics from May 011, of the CSFP.





posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 01:34 PM
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this whole situation scares the crap out me.
the worst case scenario, to me seem the most likely.
i hate to say that but this is insane.
this could very well end up extinguishing life on the majority of the planet,
and not a quick, easy way to go either.
what sickens me is the amount of nuke plants out there..just waiting.



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by Aircooled
 


Thanks AC, I've tried to go back and read everything, must have missed that section!!!



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by qmantoo
 


So in a nutshell the answers to my questions boil down to, "Almost no one knows, and those who may know aren't certain enough to make an assertion." Y a y. Oh well. We're all going to die someday anyway.

Thanks for trying though, everyone. As always, I just hope for the best for everyone. Peace.



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by AceWombat04
 

The most likely scenario is that they will be able to move some of the rod assemblies ( the ones that are not too damaged ) at first , but as time goes on they will have to start plucking the more and more damaged/broken or just plain unstable ones. In a way it's very much like a really gruesome game of Jenga.

Since we know that the pool has over heated on numerous occasions, suffered criticalities, at least one major fire
and has much physical damage and debris it is a good bet that at least 10% of the "spent" fuel rods and assemblies will be damaged enough to break catastrophically when the attempt is made to move them. Since they will be in the process of lifting the assemblies/rods the most likely event is a partial assembly dropping back into the pool (or toppling over because the removed assembly is holding up the one next to it ) and going critical from the impact.

So say ten percent of the worst of the worse assemblies left when the accident happens that gives us the potential for roughly 40 tons of material to be exposed for uncontrolled criticallity. if a criticallity occurs in the pool the resultant heat will quickly overcome the waters ability to cool it , you will get surface boiling and most likely a chain reaction that would probably interact with most of the remaining fuel.

(note: surface boiling (creating an peroxide environment) and the earlier use of seawater created unprecedented releases of uranium into solution where it remained after the boiling was stopped...the corrosion from this processes certainly reduced the structural integrity of many rod assemblies and has probably left many of these uranium " buckyballs " around and inside the assemblies and cladding as a kind of 'dust'. if any of this dust remains disturbing it can cause the aqueous uranium to spontaneously go critical if the concentration becomes high enough in any one location ...


In other words, these clusters could form on the surface of a fuel rod exposed to seawater and then be transported away, surviving in the environment for months or years before reverting to more common forms of uranium, without peroxide, and settling to the bottom of the ocean. There is no data yet on how fast these uranium peroxide clusters will break down in the environment



(note2: Caesium Is an alkali metal just like sodium, alkali metals are what allow the uranium to escape in the surface boiling/peroxide environments as they act as catalysts in the process...thus since fission creates cesium as a by-product a rod/pool criticality would be unstoppable (self fueling) if even one of the rods breaks into pieces and begins fissioning)
edit on 18-8-2013 by Silverlok because: Important stuff

edit on 18-8-2013 by Silverlok because: I have earned everyone of my grey hairs



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 06:09 PM
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Just in case anyone is new to the thread.

Silverlok, you and TRN are some of the guys who knows about this stuff, right? So what you say is about as near to the mark as it gets, so thanks for this appraisal. It is useful to know even if it is bad news.

The rest of us have skills in other areas which is useful in those areas, such as explosives and such like. We have just learned as much as we can about this disaster as we have gone along this thread, picking up stuff from the ones who work or worked in the nuclear area or who studied it thoroughly at university etc.

One more question -
Is there enough room in the Common Spent Fuel Pool to house all these extra assemblies? Shouldn't we have a report produced as to how they intend to do it and the health and risks associated with each phase of the operation.

Maybe that is what the NRC 'approval' was all about? Yes... thats it, of course it was. They would never just 'wing it' by the seat of their pants over such a massive dangerous job would they?

on edit:

if a criticallity occurs in the pool the resultant heat will quickly overcome the waters ability to cool it , you will get surface boiling and most likely a chain reaction that would probably interact with most of the remaining fuel.


That means a nuclear explosion or 'just' a massive radioactive release?
edit on 18 Aug 2013 by qmantoo because: another question



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 06:40 PM
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What was the first question? (perhaps we should say I am just a really good guesser)



One more question - Is there enough room in the Common Spent Fuel Pool to house all these extra assemblies?
reply to post by qmantoo
 


No (unless Tepco has removed some of the the material that was already there ( and overheating back in the beginning) )). The long term storage facilities have the capacity but the casks cost a million bucks a piece...




That means a nuclear explosion or 'just' a massive radioactive release?


No explosion ...nuclearly speaking...but a catastrophic , continual release is certainly a very , very high probablity



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 08:28 PM
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So how will this affect Fukushima?

Volcanic Eruption in Japan Thread

It also got me to thinking about what would happen if Tepco was to dump its spent rods in a volcano....
edit on 18-8-2013 by Thorneblood because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2013 @ 09:47 PM
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Yes, I cannot see the government or Tepco investing in dry casks at 1 million each at this stage, so I guess it will be stuffing them into the already crowded CSFP. Maybe they will build a new one...or two... or three..?

I can see them wondering what is going to happen long term. This is going to bankrupt the country because it can only get bigger and bigger. It is already too large for one company Tepco and it has the potential to cause the government to spend most of the country's money on it. If it blows up in their face, it will truly be something they cannot hide any longer.

I feel that they will have to cut the head off this dragon before it sucks all the blood out of the country. I bet at this stage they are asking for any and all suggestions as to what to do and then they will pick one and go with it. Heaven help us, 'cos, if past performance is anything to go by, that wont end well.



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 04:59 AM
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I just want to thank everyone posting in this thread, I read it in horror everyday but having very little knowledge of the subject don't feel educated enough to post here other than to say "this is some scary sh.t!

I cut and paste things and then send them on to friends, in particular from your posts "Aircooled", hope you don't mind?!

What scares me a lot too though is it appears my friends and acquaintances seem to have their heads either so high up their own butts or are so deeply involved in FBook that they don't even bother to respond to emails!

Take care all!



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 05:11 AM
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Rad Release in the Air...Twice in One Week



And hadn't been any releases for months...

www.tepco.co.jp...

- Purple Chive



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 07:25 AM
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Pump and pray: Tepco might have to pour water on Fukushima wreckage forever:

"Fukushima is a nightmare disaster area, and no one has the slightest idea what to do. The game is to prevent the crippled nuclear plant from turning into an “open-air super reactor spectacular” which would result in a hazardous, melted catastrophe."

www.sciencealert.com.au...

Not the first time we have heard this:

"I was told that US experts had the idea at the beginning of bombing the reactors into the harbour. Not so stupid in my opinion. That at least may enable them to get sufficiently close to the pieces to pick them up, and should also solve the cooling problem. Apparently (my contact said) the French argued them out of it because of the negative effect on nuclear energy (and Uranium shares)."
edit on 19-8-2013 by matadoor because: Added a nugget.



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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Fukushima is far from the only "disaster in the making" but it is by far the worst. I honestly believe that the endgame at fukushima will be a near total meltdown of the reactor cores and the spent fuel. By many estimates, this would release enough radiation and radioactive debris to make most of the northern hemisphere uninhabitable for over a century. That makes all the bird, animal and fish die offs, the Louisiana sinkhole, the threat of a major solar flare or EMP attack, methane hydrate releases and explosions, and so much more anticlimactic.

In other words, we are rapidly approaching a time when our only option left is to bend over, put our heads between our legs and kiss our collective butts goodbye.

I wonder if a lucky few could set up large scale hydroponic gardens in antarctica?
edit on 19-8-2013 by happykat39 because: typo



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor
reply to post by AceWombat04
 


Here is how I see the situation.

The staff tried like hell to cool the cores. Extraordinary effort by them to try something, anything. It all failed.


I 100% agree, well except for that one Canadian fellow, you know the nuclear expert, that high tailed it home immediately to Canada...remember him? (perhaps he should answer a few questions about what he knew and when)


(snip)

BUT, what happens when they reach the Aquifer?
(snip)

Remember Chernobyl taught us 'shielding" ( a thick crust forming on the corium from cooling or whatnot that redirects neutrons internally by reflection off of the interior of said crust) intensifies the internal runaway fission process resulting in 'pulsing' movements in the mass. the most likely outcome of corium hitting moist areas underground should be a speed-up of it's over-all downward progression. Much in the same fashion that anit-tank sabot shells use molten copper cores to penetrate the armor, except in this case the 'armor' is sandy shale and not steel and the molten juice is self heating uranium/plutonium and not copper.

In short, the speed of the downward decent should increase dramatically in a non linear fashion ( unless averaged over a longish period )leaving an massive "elephants foot" stalactite structure with a hollow fluid conduit and an insane radiation count. The upshot being that it will be hard, enduring and extremely radioactive for a very long time. If the soil/aquifer contains any kind of alkaloids the toxicity and dispersal of radioactive materials increase exponentially



Those are my views on this matter.

Because I seriously doubt that the cores are still anywhere near the containment s.


Agreed. Though I do agree with AC we should stop calling those failed billion dollar shells 'containment'. Here are some of my suggestions for new nomenclature on the tin cans around the cores:

Phantasy Unicorn Wings ( PUW )
or
Rainbow Denial Resume' Restructures ( RDRR )
or
why the hell did we ever build big steel buckets with hundreds of holes in the bottom ( for control rods) and ever think they could contain more than the ego pressure of our arrogance and greed ?



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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You help yourself Wiser, and thank you for the compliment!

Silver, what can I say? Great new names for the sieve. Now if we can only get Arnie to use them in a video! lol
I tried hunting down that video of the CDN nuclear worker from Darington/Pickering getting off the plane in Toronto, from fuk but that vid is long gone like so many others.

If they don't test they don't have to tell or lie!
fukushima-diary.com...

More leaking tanks
"but drain valves may have been left open, allowing water to flow outside, the report said."
I'm sure that was an accident [NOT!!]
www.channelnewsasia.com...

Hey Stupid Canadian government! Getting harder to lie to everybody to protect your uranium pals, eh?

"Unprecedented: Sockeye salmon at dire historic low on Canada’s Pacific coast — “We think something happened in the ocean” — “The elders have never seen anything like this at all” — Alaska and Russia also affected"
enenews.com... in-the-ocean-the-elders-have-never-seen-anything-like
www.theglobeandmail.com...

"Biologist: Pacific herring in Canada bleeding from eyeballs, faces, fins, tails — I’ve never seen fish looking this bad — All 100 examined were bloody — Officials informed of hemorrhaging soon after 3/11 — Gov’t ignoring problem"
license.icopyright.net...
If a trashy rag like the Sun [Our version of FOX] is reporting this too then word is getting out to the ostriches.
www.sunnewsnetwork.ca...


Wanna see how low the news can sink? Get ready to rachet down your already bottomless pit opinion of them. Gotta dig deeper for these slugs. Will we see this kind of manure in our own countries? Nothing would surprise me anymore.
This is from India where they beat, shoot and arrest those who stand in the way of nukes.
"There is no nuclear accident or incident in Japan's Fukushima plants. It is a well planned emergency preparedness programme which the nuclear operators of the Tokyo Electric Power Company are carrying out to contain the residual heat after the plants had an automatic shutdown following a major earthquake,"
economictimes.indiatimes.com... 08194.cms?intenttarget=no



posted on Aug, 19 2013 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by qmantoo
(snip) feel that they will have to cut the head off this dragon (snip)


It is not a dragon but hydra...the four pool is mostly intact(so the most "easily "removed")..what about three's pool which is an unmitigated disaster....and one and two's ( not to mention 5 and 6 which had criticalities too)

because , as you imply , of Tepco's 'ineptness' then logic dictates that NO COMPANY COULD BE THIS INEPT FOR THIS LONG...so...telling people their was no dragon was the plan from day one...hiding the fact the dragon was actually a hydra clearly attracted global support as policy. But one must ask themselves why? do the "captains" of industry or the "powers" of government think they are going to walk away from this thing clean ( like they for the most part did at Chernobyl)?.
Ridiculous...This crime is TOO BIG, over too long a time scale ..

when a man has nothing to lose his path becomes as untraceable as the wind...when a society of people have nothing to lose their path becomes a hurricane of retribution ...the only way to stop this is to hide the nature of truth when it is cataclysmic for as long as possible.



posted on Aug, 20 2013 @ 08:18 AM
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With the amount of fumbling and mistakes that have happened since the initial event, you really have to wonder if they aren't fighting a stuxnet like virus infection in the plant...

The number of valves that fail to open when supposed to, or are found to be open when they are not supposed to is bizarre.



posted on Aug, 20 2013 @ 09:50 AM
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It seems the new leaking tank [or two, ... or more, they're not sure yet?] is right up the hill from the CSFP and #4. [ 500 meters from the embankment.] It's one of those big round grey [1000 ton] tanks that bolt together and were transported there in sections. More sections.... more leaks. Who would want a gas tank on their car that bolted together from 12 sections? The first bump you hit it would start leaking. Same deal here.
"All-beta including strontium: 80 million Bq/L (80,000 Bq/cm3)"
"Radioactive cesium: 146,000 Bq/L (146 Bq/cm3)"
That's a cubic centimeter [as in a sugar cube]
I'm not sure I believe the part about valves being left open? It's not like they can say
"The tanks are leaking from the seams and there is nothing that can be done. We should have ordered one piece welded tanks"
Que Sera, Sera

"TEPCO cannot confirm that the leak has stopped"
By the way, this is also where the hill is swelling with underground water so it's like these tanks are standing on a big waterbed.
"The manufacturer's warranty of the tank is 5 years."
Oh that's good. At least tepco won't get ripped off, eh?
ex-skf.blogspot.ca...

Silver, on lifting some of the fuel out of #4 pool:
Just taking a stab in the dark here but I see total desperation. In Nov,Dec, Jan they will be getting hit with freezing typhoons, snow, and freezing rain.
Plastic pipes will be bursting from the temps and I'm sure the rats will want some take-out wires.
All of this suggests to me that they can't wait. Either the cracks in the pool have sprung new leaks, or #4 is leaning east more or both and more?
On the #3 fuel pool:
I'm guessing whatever is left in there is fused together and nothing can be done, so the less they mention it, the better?

"Study shows Fukushima nuclear pollution becoming more concentrated as it nears U.S. West Coast — Plume travels a nearly straight line toward America — Appears to stay together with little dispersion "


enenews.com... aight-line-to-america-appears-to-stay-together-with-little-dis
link.springer.com...



posted on Aug, 20 2013 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by Aircooled
 



I tried hunting down that video of the CDN nuclear worker from Darington/Pickering getting off the plane in Toronto, from fuk but that vid is long gone like so many others.


Dan Ayotte interview here @ Daily Motion.

Took me a little digging in the thread, but I managed to find Zorgon's post and then was able to track down a non-youtube version.



posted on Aug, 20 2013 @ 10:56 AM
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It seems to me that one key problem is "experts" to do this removal work.
1. Since this work is done by computer, there are no experts in removing the rods in any by hand based method.
2. They'll be doing the work in anti rad suits, not their comfortable civiies.
3. If a remover is good at it, he won't be able to stay long due to radiation limits. 4. If one is bad at it, game over.

Have they set up a practice area?

If the pool goes critical, it would seem to me there is a very real possibility that any efforts at the plant will end. I can't see how an explosion of that sort will allow anyone anywhere near the place ever again. I truly seems to me just like a James Bond bomb disarming saving the world scene.




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