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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 07:28 AM
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...Its time for entombment.


Nope.

Why try to make ourselves feel better? Is entombment really practical for something which can never be contained ? We cannot get beneath it to contain the tons of melted radioactive material, so how will we ever contain it. Of course I know nothing about this subject, so shoot me down, but it seems to me we are just wasting time and the more time that is wasted, the more people will die and the more of Earth will be contaminated.

What is the answer? I dont know, but Tepco and the world recognising that this is far worse than it has been reported, is a good start. At least then we can have a proper debate and pull together to try to find some way-out ideas to consider. Tepco denials and just burying our heads in the sand will not fix anything and will just continue the mess eternally. As I said before, if we can, we have to move past the blame and finger-pointing and move towards the search for solutions.

The really scary thought is that this IS a planned operation, just like the twin towers, and the Gulf Oil Spill and maybe some of the other disasters that have happened over the last few years are alleged to be. If this is true, then only the people can change things, because the authorities wont.

And above all, what sticks in my mind was the quote by the head honcho of Haiti saying that the large M8 earthquake was probably caused by the USA. Now, if you are head honcho of a country, you do not go around shooting your mouth off saying things like that to piss off powerful people or countries - unless you know there is some truth in it.

Something about this situation is going to have to change for the World's sheeple to take notice.




posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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A Lot of Wind and Dancing Flame



Hopefully someone is capturing...only show up on TBS. TEPCO cam 2:00 AM.

lucaswhitefieldhixson.com...

- Purple Chive



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 11:21 AM
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Some Mutated Vegetation



fukushima-diary.com...

fukushima-diary.com...

- Purple Chive



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by intrptr
Hey zworld... Sorry if I fail to reply sometimes on your or others comments. I may not reply, but always will read them.

intrptr, totally understand. Everyday I remember about posts I meant to or feel I should have responded to but just didnt have the time. The important thing is to stay on point and keep chipping away at the mysteries. Someone has to crack this case open.


I though trying to tomb these things when they are still emitting would only lead to more hydrogen build up and more explosions blowing the lid off whatever they try to cap it all with?

There are numerous differences between the two, but the one that I think is most important is that Chernobyl's corium was open to the air trapped in the chambers under the reactor. At Fukushima its becoming more and more obvious that the corium is buried in the concrete and soil under the plant. It may never be removed. We dont have the technology now and would have to spend trillions on this project to get it removed 10, 20, 30 years from now. In the meantime its a bomb waiting to happen and a constant emitter into the environment.

Initially I thought that entombment was a bad idea and that Tepco needed to first get the fuel cooled as much as possible while getting the spent fuel in the common pool and R5 and R6 pools and reactors out of there, reducing the nuclear threat, and eventually the fuel in the SFPs of R1-R4. Unfortunately it is also now painfully obvious that Tepco has no intention of doing this. Nor do they intend to go ahead with the roadmap project of containing the groundwater, as recently they decided not to build a complete pool, leaving the west side open. In other words, block it from getting into the sea directly under the plant, but free to migrate west and from there south and north, eventually going east out to the sea.

Now I think the international community needs to force Tepco to remove as much fuel as they can, while figuring a way to feed and bleed as they entomb R1 through R4. The entombment needs to contain all the good stuff that keeps fission from occurring. A filtration barrier needs to be erected around the quay to ensure ocean protection.

The threat of an explosion producing untold amounts of contamination is more a concern now and into the immediate future if entombment isnt done. I cant remember the exact amounts, but if memory serves Fukushima has ten times more radioactive potential than Chernobyl due to the greater amounts of fuel on site and the types of fuel (MOX, but not including what might be in the UC). And except for the noble gases most of that potential is still present.

If Tepco can be believed in the one respect that groundwater is everywhere and is invading the basements (and theres no guarantee this is true as Human alludes to above) then the fuel should be in contact with groundwater now, and is only a matter of time before reactions occur.

Since its obvious Tepco isnt in any hurry to remove any onsite fuel, and its not even a part of the roadmap, there's is no reason to allow this situation to continue. We need to figure how to localize contamination as best as possible. If not, eventually Japan and the Pacific Ocean will indeed become radioactive far more than is currently the case.

And as the Pacific Ocean goes, so goes life on this planet.

The only reason Tepco is doing what they our doing, this dog and pony show designed to give the world the impression that a nuclear accident isnt the end of the world and people can eventually correct the problem and return life to a more normal state is total BS and only being done so the nuclear mafia can one day soon go back to building more nuke plants that they say can never fail and life will return to their control.

I have no doubt Tepco, the labs they control and the Japanese govt are in collusion with the nuclear mafia lying their asses off about the current levels of contamination and what has already been released. Falsifying data as much as they possibly can. I dont buy any of it anymore. Especially after the Akuma findings and the levels of contamination around Tokyo. Entomb, contain and filter. Its now or never. Otherwise Fukushima will keep bleeding untold amounts of radionuclides into the environment poisoning the whole planet, especially Japan and the ocean. And the possibility of a serious explosion will remain a constant threat.

I no longer see any other alternative.

And I could end this diatribe
with the usual disclaimer or IMHO, but that should just be taken for granted by now. These are just my thoughts. And if someone has a clearer understanding of why this shouldnt be done Im all ears. But so far I havent seen it.

ON EDIT: I should add that the removal of any fuel that can be removed (ie common pool R5 R6 etc) should be undertaken immediately irrespective of what is done next. Why this isnt being done is an absolute mind blower.
edit on 3-12-2011 by zworld because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by qmantoo

...Its time for entombment.


Nope.

Why try to make ourselves feel better? Is entombment really practical for something which can never be contained ? We cannot get beneath it to contain the tons of melted radioactive material, so how will we ever contain it.

Actually Q I think you answered the question as to why entombment should be done. It cant be contained, so why put makeshift stuff around it. The key words in your post are it "can never be contained". This is now my feeling as well and why they should entomb asap after removing any fuel they can. It cant be contained. Better to bury it then let it keep emitting endlessly into the atmosphere and ocean as its doing now and transported worldwide. Think globally and contain locally is my new motto.

ON EDIT: In the early days there were quite a few (Im assuming knowledgeable) experts calling for entombment. this is a news clip from back then;


“We either wait a few hundred thousand years for the radiation to cool, or we wait a few weeks to get organized and start filling those containments with concrete using boron sand,” says a physicist familiar with the reactors....Boron is a widely found element in the earth’s crust and is used for everything from making glass to manufacturing wash day detergents and bleaches. It also has the property of being extremely good at stopping neutron type radiation, and is used as shielding in nuclear reactors.

edit on 3-12-2011 by zworld because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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So .. basically we are talking about Atomic/Nuke things that nobody in there right mind would be speaking about if they had a Clue as to what is going on at the Fukushima D. ..

The Multiple Meltdowns are basically non herd of right ? .. I mean .. Nobody knows what the hell is going to happen when the stuff "melts" into New stuff ? .

Please explain to a newb that those Tons of Mox ( not including the tons and TONS of leftovers ) will not affect us as carbon based beings ....

Please correct me if im wrong here ..

There really is not Anything that we can do about the Meltdowns now .. Right ?? ,,

Nobody has any clue .. Right ?

Dump sand and crete on it will ( In my mind ) create a big bad Black Cat.

So .. the guys up on the high end of this problem do not care ?????

I think that They Care more then you think ..

I think that They are doing Everything possible to contain this. Right down to tunnel digging and catching the Core.

That being said .. if the world PTB does not have that kind of Tech .. then I thing we are ALL F'd

IF You cant stop the Core ..then you can not stop little sun doing things that Nobody can expect ..

Personally .. .. I think If we see a large water table event .... then STAY INSIDE ....

JG.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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Just checking in with the TepcoCam (2011-12-04 06:40:00sh onwards) and the blurry line that was near the top is now in the middle.

Lots of greeny-blue tinge everywhere (probably just the changing light) and lots of distortion flurries and blurs, but very eerie looking today. Cold and bleak and still like nothing has moved/changed for ages.

Note re the sticky up things on the roof of the TepcoTent - I keep thinking they look like birds roosting/settling on there. What are they for? I don't think they are birds as they would fly away eventually and I have never seen them move.

Looking better now (6.57) that the sun has come up and looks very windy today. Do we know what those grasses are? Might be useful to know so we can watch for rad damage.
edit on 3/12/2011 by YarlanZey because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by zworld
 

Hey zworld. Thank you so much for that in depth reply. If I may, I would like to say that I can see the care and thoughtfulness you pour into this situation, seeking with all your heart to somehow find a solution to this very serious issue before mankind. The most serious issue ever. I think everyone here agrees whole heartedly. Within your and others concerns, I see over and over again the time and effort given to digging and presenting very intelligent posts about the quandry this situation presents to everyone and every thing on this planet.

The magnitude of this event escapes most people who are less well informed by both their understanding of the technology and its ramifications, and the MSM's job of down playing the seriousness of the developing situation.

I too have struggled to come up with solutions since the beginning on the internet in another forum: the Fukushima Node. People there understood the technology and also exchanged numerous ideas about what to do. Each developing turn generated a bunch of informed discussion about what Tepco should do to keep this situation from deteriorating further, but of course no one there had any charge over the Tepco decision making process either. Then as now, we continue to see a rather "Keystone Cop" approach to it all, coupled with a steady stream of disinfo generated by the legal dept. of Tepco, and faithfully vomited to the public at large by the Media all around the world. Meanwhile they withhold permission for other qualified professional agencies around the globe who offer to come and help share their expertise in this field. Kind of selfish on Tepco's part and also designed to keep information about the crippled plants from disseminating.

Now we are here and the problem is worse and worse as each day goes by. There will be, like you and others have stated, serious consequences for everyone down the road. The genie is out of the bottle, Pandora's box is open. Those two metaphors are poignant: In each story there is no putting the problem back in its container once released.

Nuclear Power stations are designed from the get go to wake the dragon but keep it under control. Men's machines are strong and redundant and the dragon, now wakened, struggles against its confines, yearning to be free. The trick is to get the benefit of the dragons breath without letting it out. As long as the cage is secure then no problem and everyone remains ignorant about the processes, just as long as they flick the wall switch and the light comes on. Now we are seeing the result of not just one but 3(?) monster sized reactors and 4 SFP storage areas melting down and thru the best containment man could provide. There is no putting the dragon back. There is no containing it now when it is already out. Containment is breached.

The worlds eco systems are designed to spread nutrients and minerals slowly but inexorably throughout the environment all around the planet in order to sustain the chain of life. Certain toxins, either already existent in nature or man made, are biodegradable and negated thru time and natural filters like aquafers, the oceans, delta wet lands, plants and trees, and all life forms. But not Radionuclides. They are too insidious and long lived to be absorbed or stored or broken down by Earth and its systems. In a human time frame anyway. They will keep spreading outward from their source, moving and removing thru the environment. A particle of Plutonium might travel from the air to the soil, be absorbed by a redwood tree, burned in a forest fire, buried in a mud flow, fossilized, weathered out and washed back into the sea, reentering the food chain 20,000 years from now and still give someone cancer.

I would like to remain hopeful about it, but knowing what I do about this technology and especially about the magnitude of the disaster before us, I no longer see any sure way to stop what has already occurred. There are of course "slow down" measures and "health safety" measures but they are limited by the dissemination of information by the powers that be who only continue to shuck and jive; run hide and deny; in order to maintain their paradigm. Each of us can only hope to lessen the flow of radioactive contamination into our individual lives by monitoring our local environment and the water and food we drink from now on. But most important we also need to continue to share with each other as we have been to help each other understand and deal with this as best we can. The bigger picture will hopefully change for the better, but right now I don't see that happening any time soon.

Thank you all for being here and god bless everyone in these challenging times.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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#4 looks more open concept today. Z, I kow someone way back in the thread mentioned sealing off the quay. I thought it was great idea at the time, and I'll never understand why they didn't turn the quay into their tank. The Pacific would be better today if they had.


www.youtube.com...
edit on 3-12-2011 by Aircooled because: I remembered something



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 07:25 PM
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Henry's film is back. Make a copy quick.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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Always a great report.

I guess that CDN bid on the nuke plant in Lebanon explains why our testing is off. Oh Canada how far you have sank.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 
That was a really good post intrptr. You put into words the feeling of frustration weve all been feeling. It helps when it can be looked at like that.

and concerning entombment I keep running into one massive road block. How do we deal with the SFPs.

But forget that. Im just glad to have read your post.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by Aircooled
Henry's film is back. Make a copy quick.

Thanks AC.
Its signed sealed and delivered unto disk.


ON EDIT: I remember them talking about it. In the end they decided on just filtering and barricading the water intake area. A good start, but whats really needed is a bigger quay enclosing both the quay and water outflow areas with a single filtered outflow. And it doesnt need to be fancy, nor totally water tight. It just needs to make most of what comes into the ocean be filtered. They could kill two birds with one stone and build it out of old warships (if they have anything like we have at Suisun Bay) or whatever. Go a mile north and south and enclose with a semi-circle. In fact they could fill the boats with zeolite and sand. Whatever it takes to stop the continued poisoning of the Pacific Ocean. She has been so damaged of late from overfishing, dumping toxics and fertilizers causing dead zones and coral bleaching, heating up, going acidic and who knows what else. Without the ocean producing life we are all dead. And people who are sensitive to things can feel the ocean in pain. Like the Indians from the Andes who came to warn us that they could feel the pain Mother Earth was feeling. We didnt listen, but we have to listen now, or else we are going to be saying too late that 'it's getting too late'. Cheery little fug I am, arent I.
Its just that I cant help feeling this pain from the earth, the sky, the water as well. All of life is talking to me, saying please help, quick. And its breaking my heart.

I started an hoc group sometime ago called the Northcoast Ocean and River Protection Association. We used it during the oil lease sales. I think its time to bring it back.
edit on 3-12-2011 by zworld because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by Aircooled
#4 looks more open concept today. Z, I kow someone way back in the thread mentioned sealing off the quay. I thought it was great idea at the time, and I'll never understand why they didn't turn the quay into their tank. The Pacific would be better today if they had.


www.youtube.com...

Cool pic. Open air is right. They are apparently dismantling the whole structure? All the way to the ground?
I am ass/u/me/ ing that is what it looks like. If they are, it makes sense. The reactor in #4 was shut down when the earthquake first occurred, so they don't have a double problem of sfp and hot reactor core, like with the others. Each of these buildings will be treated differently because of their unique characteristics. One is covered, 2 is still standing, three is well... gone, and 4 is coming down. Good to see some progress. Those workers on site must be selfless heroic types or something.



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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Investigation shows event at Palisades Nuclear Plant was of "substantial safety significance"


By Lindsey Smith

The Palisades Nuclear Power Plant sits close to the Lake Michigan shoreline near South Haven. Excelon Nuclear

N.R.C. spokeswoman Victoria Midlyng says the procedures the worker was supposed to follow were improper anyway. And she says managers at the plant had given that worker the green light to do things differently.



"Nobody took the time to really focus on the safety significance of this activity," Midlyng said, "Nobody stopped in their tracks and said 'hey, what are we doing here? We need to rethink this.'"

Rbrtj


Source



posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 10:38 PM
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I just don't get these guyz. This is as insulting as it gets. They are polluting the US and Canada more than anywhere else except northern Japan. They know that there are people in these countries who are very concerned with the situation at Fukushima, yet they kick us in the face by not releasing english versions of the report we have been waiting for. Nice touch Tepco.

The following is their press release (if PC hasnt posted it). There are too me 2 interesting statements made;


The aforementioned attachments are only available in Japanese. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

No you dont care one wit Tepco. Stop lying. You are happy not to make english versions available. And if you were to admit that, that's what honest people call telling the truth. You might have to wiki the words 'honesty' and 'truthfulness', but please do. It will make the whole world so much happier.


We will continue to investigate and announce the facts and so forth once they are revealed and confirmed.

Now I know its probably a translation thing, but "revealed and confirmed". I don't get it. Tepco's statement sounds like there is someone else in ultimate charge and it is they who reveal things to Tepco, who must then confirm them???

That is either a total translation glitch, or one hell of a Freudian slip.

And this is from ENENEWS and shows why we need this report. Its early first hand reports like this that give the greatest clue as to what really happened. Fu@king Tepco!!!!


[A]n interim report released Friday by the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) [...] was the first to detail testimonies from workers, who were hailed as heroes in the weeks following the accident as they took extreme health risks to try to prevent a worse nuclear disaster. [...]

“When I got to the place to open the valve, I heard eerie, deep popping noise from the torus (a donut-shaped structure at the bottom of the reactor),” he said.

“When I put one of my feet on the torus to reach the valve, my black rubber boot melted and slipped (due to the heat).” [...]

edit on 3-12-2011 by zworld because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2011 @ 12:10 AM
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Have you guys seen this? If so I apologize, I found it interesting...




posted on Dec, 4 2011 @ 12:36 AM
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From tsutsuji over at the PF thread who translated some of the report. One of the key points he made in one of his posts about the report is the fact that the highest release of radiation during the meltdowns occurred after the R2/R4 explosions, but the report doesnt explain how this could be, since they know now R4 did not lose the SFP and R2 didn't even release as much radiation as R1 (see below). (Its also one of the mysteries that is immediately solved by the inclusion of the UC but there I go again).


I have translated the abstract at the top of www.tepco.co.jp...

Abstract

An estimate of Fukushima Daiichi units 1, 2 and 3's core status was publicly released on 23 May, and although cores in all three units were largely damaged and melted fuel had moved or fallen into the lower plenum, while not refuting the possibility that melted fuel had fallen ouside of the reactor pressure vessel, we estimated that most of it was being cooled in the vicinity of the lower plenum. The present public release consists of core status obtained by MAAP analysis and core status estimates based on core status evaluation that can be inferred from the behaviour of measured temperatures in every part of the plant.

Material for core status estimates were obtained by various operations, investigations, studies, and analysis performed since May. The estimates that were obtained are the following ones:

1) From the temperature behaviour of every part when injection rate is changed or when injection route is changed, it can be inferred regarding unit 1, as the RPV temperature decrease is large, that there are few fuel debris inside RPV, and regarding units 2 and 3, that fuel debris exist inside RPV.

2) As a result of calibration and of filling unit 1 and unit 2's water level gauges' reference tools with water, we can infer that a water level is not formed at the original fuel location inside the reactor, and that there is no fuel at the original location.

3) Conducting nuclear substance analysis of the gasses inside unit 1 and unit 2's primary containment vessels, we infer from cesium concentrations that fuel melted more at unit 1 than at unit 2.

4) Evaluating the heat balance of decay heat production and cooling, we estimate that the part of unit 1's decay heat that could not be cooled by the isolation condenser and by the high pressure core injection is about 3 times higher than that of units 2 and 3, and that this lead to early fuel and RPV damage.

5) From an estimate based on a RPV heat balance model, we infer that as of 10 October, at both units 2 and 3, the proportion of uncovered fuel is 3% or less, and that the fuel is largely submerged.

6) From an analysis concerning core-concrete reaction, we infer that even at unit 1, which is thought to contain the highest proportion of fallen fuel, the pedestal floor's erosion depth does not reach the PCV's inner wall.

Based on the above information and general analysis, it was possible to take further the estimations of core status we had performed in May. As a result, concerning unit 1, it can be thought that nearly all of the fuel that melted after the accident fell down into the lower plenum, and that there is almost no fuel left in its original reactor location. It can be thought that a great part of the debris that fell down into the lower plenum, fell down onto the primary containment vessel's pedestal. However, although the fuel debris create a core-concrete reaction, they were stopped due to the cooling performed by water injection and due to the decrease of decay heat, and we estimate that in the present situation, it remains inside the PCV where it is receives stable cooling. Concerning units 2 and 3, it can be thought that the fuel debris are for one part in the core's original territory, and for another part they have fallen into the lower plenum or onto the pedestal, and we estimate that in whichever place they might be, they are receiving stable cooling.

Nevertheless, far from observing directly into the reactor and into the primary containment vessel, this is a core status estimate based on various indirect informations and analysis, and in the future, using some methods, we want to grasp the situation through direct observation.




posted on Dec, 4 2011 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by berkeleygal
 
Hi Berkeleygal. Ive seen it and its great and I meant to post it and I forgot and I dont think anyone else did so right on. I used the part where it talks about how the nuclides end up the bottom attached to sediment. Thanks



posted on Dec, 4 2011 @ 12:57 AM
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Now entering stage 4 of the roadmap to recovery from TEPCO, and that can only mean that it is time for the Phoenix to Rise competely free of the fire below. So keeping in the time honored ATS tradition of grand avatars that are nothing more than projections of over inflated egos, I give you mine. Zee Phoenix Rising from the Flames.



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