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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 1068.htm
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posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 05:41 PM
reply to post by zworld

Hey Z, et al. Sorry been away with RL for a bit.

It may have been the galvanic transport issues that Arnie refers to in this report here. From what I recall, Arnie was also referring, in the early days, to sodium reacting with the zircalloy and creating a thermal barrier increasing the criticality risk, but also some potentially explosive chemical reactions (TRN identified this as well ... sodium metals and other... fun stuff)

Also, saltwater acts as an excellent anode (conductor) aside from the CL-138 issues I mentioned in my last post on the subject. Wigner, as we discussed before is only going to be an issue below certain temps (sustained), but Silver is right in that we would be seeing some excellent low temps (below 250 degrees) in the pools. I doubt we are going to see it in the reactors, in all honesty I believe the cores are out and Tepco is conducting another mass circle jerk.

As opposed to Silver, I see no reason why there wouldn't be any salt in the (now empty, or mostly empty) rpvs and around the secondary containment. About 1/4 would likely have been converted to CL-138 and some would have melted in the higher temp criticality events to become Na, but there would still be a fair amount, perhaps in crystaline form.

Molten sodium is used as a coolant in some types of fast neutron reactors. It has a low neutron absorption cross section, which is required to achieve a high enough neutron flux, and has excellent thermal conductivity. Its high boiling point allows the reactor to operate at ambient pressure. However, using sodium poses certain challenges. The molten metal will readily burn in air and react violently with water, liberating explosive hydrogen. During reactor operation, a small amount of sodium-24 is formed as a result of neutron activation, making the coolant radioactive.

Sodium leaks and fires were a significant operational problem in the first large sodium-cooled fast reactors, causing extended shutdowns at the Monju Nuclear Power Plant and Beloyarsk Nuclear Power Plant.

Where reactors need to be frequently shut down, as is the case with some research reactors, the alloy of sodium and potassium called NaK is used. It melts at −11 °C, so cooling pipes will not freeze at room temperature. Extra precautions against coolant leaks need to be taken in case of NaK, because molten potassium will spontaneously catch fire when exposed to air.

The phase diagram with potassium shows that the mixtures with potassium are liquid at room temperature in a wide concentration range. A compound Na2K melts at 7 °C. The eutectic mixture with a potassium content of 77 % gives a melting point at −12.6 °C.[36]


There are so many unknowns at the moment since we have no idea of the proximity of the corium and the level of neutron bombardment. However, yes, saltwater is an excellent anode medium, floating grounds and tons of radioactive fuel happily sitting in some bedrock while humans are doing the equivalent of pissing on a forest fire.

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 05:48 PM
Got an interesting response over at the PF forum concerning salt in the core. From etudiant;

Has there been anything published on the effects of salt water cooling for a disintegrating core? Specifically, it would be useful to have some idea of the likely reactions between the fuel oxides and the nuclear reaction products with the chlorine ions in the salt, both dissolved as well as molten. As I remember my chemistry, the chlorine should have no trouble displacing the oxygen under high temperature conditions. Would the resultant chlorides be materially more soluble than the fairly inert oxides? What are the implications for the nature of the airborne emissions from the site and could that help explain the finding of plutonium and neptunium depositions quite a distance from the plant?

Im going to have to go back to school again on this one but I think this might raise an important question. SL, WW, anyone; what would the reaction be in a containment vessel full of chlorine and hydrogen and fission products.

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 05:58 PM

Originally posted by thorfourwinds

Our question: Did this 7-inch crack appear 'overnight' in this particular nuclear reactor?

Also, earlier in this thread, we postulated the idea that the borate moderator has reached its lifespan and was probably being inhibited by the saltwater and wouldn't be actually 'operational'...?

The cracks they have been finding are in the core shroud inside the reactor, and can't be seen. Most of the cracks have been in the 1 inch range or less, but there have been quite a few found even longer than 7 inches in reactors in Daini and other NPPs. This problem first emerged in the early 1990s and defective steel was found to be the problem. So they replaced the shrouds with ones made of a steel they claimed was better, but that proved to also be defective and ended up producing more cracks than the original steel. The following is from Toshiba, a reactor manufactrurer;

It is vitally importance to maintain the stable operation of Nuclear Power Plants now, and well into the future. The discovery of core shroud cracking in the BWR in 1990 led to heightened awareness and enhanced shroud inspection programs worldwide. This inspection initiative revealed that Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) of core shroud was becoming an issue for the entire BWR industry.

Dont you just love how the say "well into the future". Almost like an afterthought. Well into the future. Yeah sure Toshiba, you and all the rest of the nuclear clowns will be around for thousands and thousands of years making sure water is in the pools. Even when thats all thats left and theres no money being generated.

ON EDIT: found some more interesting stuff concerning CSS

Extensive cracking of circumferential welds on the core shroud has been discovered in a growing number of U.S. and foreign BWRs. A lateral shift along circumferential cracks at the welds by as little as 1/8 inch can result in the misalignment of the fuel and the inability to insert the control rods coupled with loss of fuel core cooling capability. This scenario can result in a core melt accident. A German utility operating a GE BWR where extensive core shroud cracking was identified estimated the cost of replacement at $65 million dollars. The Wuergassen reactor, Germany's oldest boiling water reactor, was closed in 1995 after wary German nuclear regulators rejected a plan to repair rather than replace the reactor's cracked core shroud.

And ON EDIT again I found even more. This is an article from a Japanese site discussing the cracks found in R2 and R3 at Daiichi, and cracks at Daini, and this was published in 2002.

The crack lines are drawn on the welded portion, however they are actually observed on the shroud body near the welded position. The core shroud is assembled to envelop the whole fuel assembly in the RPV. Therefore, in case of shroud collapse, it is reasonably possible to hypothesize the situation in which reactor control is not possible due to the loss or damage to the steam separators and steam dryers located on the shroud head.

There have never been any safety inspections in Japan that analyze accident simulation assuming cracks in the core shroud. It is not always true that the safety inspection scenario could precisely predict the consequence of an accident resulting from a significant coolant loss accident such as the recirculation pipe rupture in a nuclear power plant with some cracks in its shroud.

According to the NRC report, the fuel rod assemblies in RPV would not be capable of circulating cooling water, because the coolant circulated in the shroud is leaked from cracks in the core shroud, which is also released from the recirculation pipe to the outside of the nuclear reactor. Even if the core shroud is in good condition, being capable of maintaining the circulation of cooling water, cracks in the shroud could ultimately lead to core meltdown, probably the most catastrophic accident that could occur at a nuclear power plant.

And to think that Tepco initially rejected the idea after the explosions that the reactors would have to be scrapped. Shoulda been scrapped when the defective steel was discovered the second time back in 2002.

OK last EDIT: Found out why they didnt scrap the cracked reactors. Because NISA and METI changed the standards to allow electric companies to sustain the operation of nuclear power plants even if the core shroud has cracks as long as half its circumference. The nuclear reactors can continue operation under the new standards where previously they would have had to be stopped for repairs. The Japan Society of Mechanical Engineering (JSME) said that the movement towards introduction of “defect standards” was set in motion by the “Agreement on the Removal of Technical Barriers regarding the Rules of Trade between Global Trading Organizations in 1996”.
edit on 18-9-2011 by zworld because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 06:10 PM
reply to post by Wertwog

Excellent WW. Im going to go back and get a good handle on all that stuff. I had never heard of galvanic transport until this thread. And when I first heard it I thought "that would be a cool name for a band in then 60s"

Glad youre back.

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 06:22 PM
reply to post by Purplechive

PC, though you may have already seen it, here is replies to my query of salt inn the rpv blocking the temp readings from the PF forum.

The RPV temperature measurements usually measure the temperature from the outside surface of the pressure vessel metal, so if the RPV is intact, its contents should have no effect on the measurement thermocouples.


if the thermocouples were held in place by magnetic recepticles, the steel of the RPV would have lost it's magnetic properties at about 770C, and the thermocouple(s) would have fallen to some position either hanging by their leads or at the bottom of the dry well.

It never occurred to me that the sensors would be on the outside. If that is the case, and if it is also the case that they may be dangling, who knows what they are reading. They could be reading air and the corium way past that into the groundwater. Or the rpv could be intact and way hotter than the sensor readings because the sensors are again dangling in the air. More possibilities added to the equation.

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 07:15 PM
reply to post by zworld

Would tie in with the earlier report (est pg800ish..?) of 120+ degree water temps in a tube that's over 1m away and attached to the RPV.
External sensors eh...

Been #RL busy as hell, still reading the wonderful work you are all up to when I have time!
edit on 18/9/11 by GhostR1der because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 08:43 PM
Yesterday NHK-Educational (E-Terebi) showed something, imo. , very Remarkable:
Japans Way into the Nuclear Energy from JRR-1 until the construction of F'Shima,
the singularity is that they re-played Audio-Documents,
every Meeting from the early days on are recorded!

At first they thought that a Nuclear-Reactor is like an Wood-Oven

They has had absolute no Imagination
GE. (General Electric) tricked the Japanese into Nuclear Power,
the vulnerably was known since the first Blueprint
We can say the same thing about the British Reactors

I really hope that this will show up in English!

So, i think the Investigation is ongoing,
this is a good sign!

PS; but- is this Fogium or real Smoke above Unit 3.?

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 02:48 AM
I am just back from the Anti-Nuclear Demonstration

It is a huge Success , i even think this is the biggest Demonstration since WW2
The Organizer spoke about ca. 60.000 People,
but more important was the Age and the Origin of the People.

I think ca. 70% (!!!) was above the age of 60
and the majority must be the Farmer and Fishermen from the Tohoku/ Sanriku Coast!

I am sure that Youtube will be full of this Stuff at the evening Japanese Standard Time!

Sometimes the Japanese need a kick but when they start No-One can stop them.

No Pasaran!

Thousands protest against nuclear power in Japan

TOKYO (AFP) - Tens of thousands of demonstrators rallied in Tokyo on Monday calling for an end to nuclear energy in Japan after the March 11 disaster that sparked the worst atomic crisis since Chernobyl.

About 60,000 people gathered for the anti-nuclear rally, organisers said, one of the biggest since the earthquake and tsunami and the following disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

edit on 19-9-2011 by Human0815 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 04:00 AM
reply to post by Wertwog

that is a nice video Wert, and extremely important, I've been to the salt 'farms' in Oakland and seen how salt moves when heated in water ,It's amazing how 3% for seawater is where the "limit" is , in fact I think the salinity of the ocean is a direct indication of planetary (average) temps , and is as good at geological timing as (adjusted) carbon dating.

I do believe the salt accumulated on the heat sources ( as I stated several hundred posts ago ) but the tepid trappings of Tepco's method have moved most of the salt ( in fact I think some of their 'strategy' was specifically designed around this, once they realized the pooch was anally compromised )
I should properly tempiorize:

all this happened loong ago , unless they are still using seawater ( in some proportion )

hot 'fresh' water quickly clears salt even if the contact time is EXTREMELY low

and hi wert, I hope life had some good O's in it

salt in the (now empty, or mostly empty) rpvs

steam transport ace...for salt it's like sandblasting
edit on 19-9-2011 by Silverlok because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 04:07 AM

Unit 3 now down to 90 C!!

And plummet in all the other temp readings!

So yup Z - game over! As WW stated corium in the bedrock and pissing on a forest fire!

- Purple Chive

edit on 19-9-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 05:53 AM
OK, so here at long last are the updated lists of PDF files, Youtube videos, domains, and web pages referenced in this thread up to pages 1067 of this humungous thread. There is also a full list of Press Releases from TEPCO which is similar to the one here on Tepcos Press Release page, however, they only show the last 523 and there are actually over 2120 available since the 11th March earthquake. You will need to go there from these links (or from previous links on this thread) otherwise you will not see all of the items. I have not done the images yet.

List of links to TEPCO Press Releases

List of general links in the ATS thread

List of links to domain Home Pages in the ATS thread

List of links in the ATS thread to Youtube videos

List of links in the ATS thread to PDF files.

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 09:13 AM
reply to post by qmantoo

Excellent Q thank you. Not easy work.

And now I see what you mean by labeling the urls so they dont have to be opened to see what it is as I start doing the same stuff.

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 09:29 AM
And so it begins, the end of nuclear power. Way to go Japan activists.

Sixty thousand protesters gathered in central Tokyo on Monday demanding an end to Japan’s reliance on nuclear power, six month’s after the world’s worst nuclear accident

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 10:25 AM
Forty year old Michigan reactor leaking, but it's good for another 20 years?

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 12:06 PM
Don't have much time to post - but hot diggity dang!!

Human wish we all could have been there for the protest! Was there in spirit!!

Z & Wert: outstanding with the salt implications!! Excellent Q&A!

Q - Unbelievable work!!! Created a special folder...tried a thousand stars but ATS only allots one...shucks!

AC, Silver, et all...stupendous...

Noticed TEPCO really holding back on info releases lately. Should be a lot of hoopla going on with Unit 3 down to 90.4 C.

Anyhow fabulous work ya'll!!

- Purple Chive

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 01:15 PM
NHK report with future Radiation map of Japan. Picture uploading is still disabled here I see. For those of us who live to far away, to have joined the folks in Japan, at the rally, let me say how proud we are of the turn-out. Way To Go!!!! The nuclear gang don't look so powerful anymore, do they? Courage isn't so rare in real life, only in media/government.

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 04:51 PM

New Arnie Video

- Purple Chive

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 06:21 PM
Wiki-leaks has released another quarter million diplomatic cables. Can't wait to see the Tokyo ones. Maybe we'll find out what Hillary was up to.

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 10:55 PM
Will Tokyo Be Evacuated Due to Fukushima Radiation?

Tokyo Radiation Exceeds Chernobyl In Some Places … Japanese Government and Experts Discuss Evacuation

The need to evacuate parts of the sprawling capital of 35 million may have once seemed an incredible prospect but some experts say the possibility can no longer be ignored.

In the days immediately after the crisis began at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant, the government received a report saying 30 million residents in the Tokyo metropolitan area would have to be evacuated in a worst-case scenario, former Prime Minister Naoto Kan revealed in a recent interview.

One of those assessments said everyone residing within 200 to 250 km of the plant — an zone that would encompass half to all of Tokyo and cut clear across Honshu to the Sea of Japan — would have to be evacuated.

Which is what they should have done in the first place. But I don't even think they will do it in the future. Political and economical suicide.

posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 11:27 PM
reply to post by Purplechive

Page not found Sorry, "Fairewinds Introduces a Japanese Language Edition and Identifies Safety Problems in all Reactors Designed Like Fukushima" was deleted at 9:26:32 Mon Sep 19, 2011. We have no more information about it on our mainframe or elsewhere.


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