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Phil Zuckerman: Why Evangelicals Hate Jesus

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posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Did Jesus not say that if you love Him, you would keep the commandments?


He was refering to HIS commandments, Love God, and Love your Neighbor, or simply Love one another.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
And of those who do not keep the commandments, punishment is death.


Spiritual death. One who cannot love is only filled with hate, thus they are dead in spirit.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Jesus' blood provides grace against the death penalty for sins against God.


No, Christ's death with his example to the world of how we should love one another. He died for us because we would not die for him. He lamented the fact to Pilate during his trial. If that world was his Kingdom, his followers would not have let him be put to death.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Sin against mankind is to be dealt with by mankind,


No it is not. It is not mankinds place to judge. Judge NOT, lest ye be judged yourself, and by what measure you mete, so will be measured against you. All we are supposed to do is love one another. All else is in God's Hands. If we loved one another, we would not have murders, thieves, adultery, or any of the social problems we have because all would be equal in everyones eyes and we would share our love and this world.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
as sin against God was dealt with by God (Jesus)


All sin is dealt with by God. He forgives those who forgive.

With Love,

Your Brother




posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Wrong. Finish the verse.

Judge, lest not ye be judged. For the manner in which ye judge, so shall ye be judged. and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye.

He is saying to not to he a hypocrite. If you are a thief, you have no right to judge another as a thief, and if you do, you will get the same judgement you have handed out.


No, you are wrong. You have no place to judge because you are as much a sinner as a thief. Do you love all? That is THE LAW, do you?

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



You will never accomplish this when YOU continue to do this...


Oh come on, who am i discriminating against? My belief doesn't cause prejudice - I'm not a xenophobe, racist, homophobe, meglomaniac - I'm not discriminating against individual people, I'm discriminating an ideology, as i would do with Nazism, i have my concerns, i'm venting them.

I don't have a problem with freedom of expression or speech (to an extent) I will stand up to those teaching children the unprovable as truth.



You are not doing this, while you continue to do this...


What are you talking about. Do you judge a Nazi? Or a Paedophile? Or are you really scared to have a concern or an opinion about an ideology.

I'm not spouting pre-subcribed religious beliefs. I'm also not spouting any dogma or prophecy. I don't push my Atheism onto anyone.

I could still have a belief in God and have concerns with organised religion or the philosophy within.

A concern with religious ideology isn't just restricted to Atheism.


Priests preaching condoms are worse than aids - I will judge the Priests. Teaching "heaven" and "hell" to children as absolute - I will judge whoever carries out these wicked deeds.


I'm doing this? Preaching this? No i am not. I would never indoctrinate anyone with unprovable ideas, nor would i frighten them saying afterlife consists of a firey torture. I don't teach whhat i can't prove, and i definetly wouldn't try to pass these unprovable theories off as truth.

My enemy is those who preach such nonsense. I won't love my enemy. THe enemy is the theocratic maniacs still stoning people in Iran for example. The theocratic maniacs teaching nonsense to vulverable children, especially those in Africa regarding condoms being worse than aids.


While you continue to do this...


Look, you have obviously never read a single post i've written.

I do not pass of anything as truth! - I don't know what the cause of the universe is, therefore i will suspend belief. Religious god's can be falsified - There is no evidence to suggest god is omnipotent, omnipresent, able or willing. "Epicurean Paradox" - But there is no evidence to prove there is no creator in general.

It's an insult to accuse me of being guilty of religion's preaching. I don't claim any truth. Religion does. Deal with that.

Read any of my threads or posts; i don't claim truth, i can't, i woudn't risk decieving people. My skepticism is with those who claim they have truth, without demonstrating it, and then scaring children and adults with that alledged "truth"

Your short, unexplained and unlettered claims of hypocracy show that you don't understand the Agnostic Atheist's position. It's been observed in many threads.
edit on 13/3/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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Reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


You fail to recognize the difference betwaeen physical/spiritual sin and death.

As for your not believeing. That is your own personal issue.

For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit.

Jesus is your intercessor to God, if you accept him as the Messiah. He is your lawyer. If not, you will stand beofre the Creator and be judged.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Your short, unexplained and unlettered claims of hypocracy show that you don't understand the Agnostic Atheist's position. It's been observed in many threads.


Agnostic Atheism is simply Bull. There is no other way to put it. Believe in God, Don't believe in God, or admit you do not know. "I do not know that I do not believe" is ignorant. Own up to your responsibility. You are better than this.

If you do not believe in God, that is fine. I do not blame you. Those who claim to believe in God have so screwed up the concept, I do not blame anyone for not believing. In fact, I think you are better off NOT believing than following down the dark and twisted paths carved out by his supposed followers.

If you do not believe, you must at least be able to see the logic in building a society based on love. You cannot claim to Love if you are not willing to do it unconditionally. That isn't love, that is domination. Yes, to love means you may have to endure some pretty harsh things from others. Show them Love anyway. The reason they cannot treat you the way they are supposed to is because they have forgotten how to love.

If we do not turn this world around, it WILL be turned around for us, Watch.

I have never tried to mislead you my friend, and I never will. Before this year is out you WILL know God, he is within you.

Have you ever seen this thread:

Final Warning

Forgive me if you have, it is well worth bringing up again.

I do not say these things to belittle your opinion my friend. It just breaks my heart to continue to see such bitterness and division while God is doing so much to wake us up. The time for the silly bull# is over.

Christ showed the way we are to treat each other. Yes, a lot of his followers screwed it up. I correct them as equally as I correct you. It is time to get back to the Christ path of life.

It is so simple a child could understand it. Love one another, Judge no one.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 13-3-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-3-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


What about an eskimo who has never heard of Jesus, God or Religion? And is merely just living life?

Is it fair to judge someone who has no knowledge of it?

Your God will send this man to hell if he commits any "sin"?


Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

edit on 13/3/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



Agnostic Atheism is simply Bull


Not really. It's an honest and humble position.

"I don't believe man or man's current pursuit of truth has knowledge of any God, as soon as we find evidence for such a being, i will renounce my Atheism"

Agnostic Atheism is an open-minded position that is willing to change, providing evidence is provided.

What bull? What unscientific nonsense? Carl Sagan? What an idiot! Richard Dawkins? What an idiot! Yeah right.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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If you do not believe, you must at least be able to see the logic in building a society based on love.


Of course. I yearn for it.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:18 PM
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I have never tried to mislead you my friend, and I never will. Before this year is out you WILL know God, he is within you.


Before this year is out, i will know? Isn't this misleading?

What is God? define it, so i can know before this year is out?

I can preach vague ideologies like that. "You all have an energy inside you" "What spirit you have in you!" "By the end of this year, you will FEEL the force"



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:21 PM
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Christ showed the way we are to treat each other


You can't prove that, at the moment, the bible is a story that we can't prove as truth.

Similarly, i can reference REAL people, Ghandi for example, but of course - i don't agree with all his teaching, as i don't with some of Christ's teaching - The great difference is that there is evidence for Ghandi, and evidence for his words.

Anyone can write a fiction story with a protagonist - and then 2000 years later, people could claim it as truth, and that the fictional character was infact supernatural in his powers.

Hope it doesn't happen with Harry Potter



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
What about an eskimo who has never heard of Jesus, God or Religion? And is merely just living life?

Is it fair to judge someone who has no knowledge of it?

Your God will send this man to hell if he commits any "sin"?


Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

edit on 13/3/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)


Christ came to save the Jews. The Jews were practicing a false doctrine whereby they judged one another and performed silly ritual sacrifices to atone for man made sins. This was simply a money making power scam created by the Judaic Priest hood.

God's Law is written in all of our hearts at birth.

It is to Love one another.

If you have forgotten how to love, you can look at Jesus to see what we were suppose to have done from the beginning.

Contrary to popular belief, the whole world did not need to be saved. The whole world was not making the mistakes the Jews were. Many cultures were loving and supportive of one another. They have been driven out though.

Christ even said himself that he came for the Children of Israel. This wasn't because they were God's chosen people, it was because they were screwing up. What did they do? They rejected their own savior. When they adopt his teachings, they will have peace. Until then, they will continue to suffer. The suffering is of their own making.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


You absolutely sure you're not a Christian, you do know that Christ is part of abrahamic scripture? Many "saviors" in other religions have exactly the same criteria:-

-Born of a virgin
-Died in sacrifice
-Ressurected

If you do not label yourself with a religion. Can you not find a better character within other fictional works that displays more advanced humanism?

You seem to be tied down by Christ,.........

and i know i know, you are just talking about his words - And i've already argued that many of his teachings are immoral but you won't take that into account. You have submitted to Jesus like a Christian would.

There are plenty other "saints" or saviors out there in fictional books, you can find a savior in most every work of fiction - Neo for example


Also, i could quote the "Oracle" to accompany my arguments in debates......But i'm not as cunning as that
edit on 13/3/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You can't prove that, at the moment, the bible is a story that we can't prove as truth.


I can prove that. Science has proved it. Common sense proves it. Your own heart proved it.

Do you want me to cast judgements at you?
Do you want me to persecute you because I feel I am more righteous?

Don't you want to be loved?


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Similarly, i can reference REAL people, Ghandi for example, but of course - i don't agree with all his teaching, as i don't with some of Christ's teaching - The great difference is that there is evidence for Ghandi, and evidence for his words.


Ghandi showed the way to the Hindu people. He is as much their savior as Christ is the savior to the Jews. FYI Ghandi was highly influenced by the teachings of Christ.

Ok my friend. For one claiming that he hasn't got a truth, your cup runneth over with your own ideas of what is true.

Remember what I have said and watch the world. There you will see the proof.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You absolutely sure you're not a Christian, you do know that Christ is part of abrahamic scripture? Many "saviors" in other religions have exactly the same criteria:-

-Born of a virgin
-Died in sacrifice
-Ressurected


This is BS added by the Catholic Church to unify the teachings of Christ with the various other cults in the Empire. Catholicism was a created religion designed to hand the power of faith over to the Empire.

Much of it I dismiss.


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
If you do not label yourself with a religion. Can you not find a better character within other fictional works that displays more advanced humanism?

You seem to be tied down by Christ,.........


His teachings are perfect. For the record, my garments are dipped in blood. I am a Palero, a priest of the Afro Cuban tradition of Palo Mayombe. My name in that tradition in Kikongo is Tata Ngombe en Toto.

Though I do not practice any longer, that is my root.


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
and i know i know, you are just talking about his words - And i've already argued that many of his teachings are immoral but you won't take that into account.


I won't take them into account because you are being lazy. Cutting and Pasting from a Christ hate site, canned arguments is not something I am going to waste my time on. If you want to provide a whole scripture that YOU do not understand with YOUR interpretation of it, I will gladly take the time to show you how you ere.

I am not going to do work for you if you are not going to do work for you.


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
There are plenty other "saints" or saviors out there in fictional books, you can find a savior in most every work of fiction - Neo for example


Did NEO run around screaming "Christ is immoral, Christ is immoral!"

If there is another hero which teaches unconditional Love and forgiveness, by all means live by HIS example. The name is irrelevant to me.

Be your own hero. Show the world how to...

Judge not, Love all, be at peace

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



I won't take them into account because you are being lazy.


Nice talking with you IAMIAM, you're pseudo-philosophy and lack of an argument shines through again.

So are you going to PROVE that ALL of Jesus words were acceptable and NOT morally reprehensible?

Where's your evidence? Why am i the lazy one? Ask yourself some questions instead of preaching, preaching, preaching.

Good luck with your adventure of life,


Did NEO run around screaming "Christ is immoral, Christ is immoral!"


LOL - I don't think i remember that part.

Anyway, Good luck.

A&A
edit on 13/3/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
. . .

He was refering to HIS commandments, Love God, and Love your Neighbor, or simply Love one another.


His commandments are God's commandments. Jesus is God.

All of the Torah revolves around those three things. Loving God and fellow man.




Spiritual death. One who cannot love is only filled with hate, thus they are dead in spirit.


And physical death as well, as per the Torah




No, Christ's death with his example to the world of how we should love one another.


I agree.


He died for us because we would not die for him.


No. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures"


He lamented the fact to Pilate during his trial. If that world was his Kingdom, his followers would not have let him be put to death.


The charge brought against Him was of claiming the title of king. Pilate asked him if he was king of the Jews. Jesus asked him if that was his own idea, or if others had told him that. Pilate said that the Jews told him so. Jesus then said that His kingdom was not of this world, for if it was, his servants would have prevented his arrest. Pilate says "Aha! So you do claim to be king!" Jesus than says that He came to speak the truth, and those that want the truth will listen.

It says nothing of what you say.




No it is not. It is not mankinds place to judge.


Heh. So we should just live in an anarchistic society with no moral path?
"Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:1-3)


Jesus even says "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24)


If we loved one another, we would not have murders, thieves, adultery, or any of the social problems we have because all would be equal in everyones eyes and we would share our love and this world.


I agree. That would be accomplished through God's law, but sin does not let that happen.



All sin is dealt with by God. He forgives those who forgive.


Indeed, all sin is judged, and one must forgive. That does not mean that consequences must not be dealt with.
edit on 3/13/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware

. . .

What about an eskimo who has never heard of Jesus, God or Religion? And is merely just living life?

Is it fair to judge someone who has no knowledge of it?

Your God will send this man to hell if he commits any "sin"?

. . .


Romans 1&2 deal with this.

God will judge people who have honestly never heard by the light that they do see.

Those who reject Jesus (they have to have heard to reject Him) will be condemned just on that matter. This is because Jesus is God, and by rejecting Jesus, you are blatantly rejecting God.

Others who have honestly not heard will be judged by how they live. By the moral compass that God has instilled in us all.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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One of the major problems in Christianity in general is an emphasis on a single act of salvation (i.e., the moment of accepting Chist as your personal savior) rather than a life lived humbly day-to-day attempting to put into practice the teachings from Christ.

When the focus shifts from the message to the messanger in a debate, we call it an "ad hominem attack," and it is recognized as being unfair. On a messageboard, we call the shift from the topic to the poster "trolling" in most cases, and the T&C of ATS go so far as to make this a central no-no. In politics, when the focus shifts from policy to excessive adulation of a ruler, we call it a "dictatorship" or a "cult of personality."

Is this really what Christ would have wanted for His flock?


edit on 3/13/11 by silent thunder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
And physical death as well, as per the Torah


The explanation of the physical death in the Torah is misunderstood. If people understood there true relationship with God, they would KNOW they do not die.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

He died for us because we would not die for him.


No. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures"


He lamented the fact to Pilate during his trial. If that world was his Kingdom, his followers would not have let him be put to death.


The charge brought against Him was of claiming the title of king. Pilate asked him if he was king of the Jews. Jesus asked him if that was his own idea, or if others had told him that. Pilate said that the Jews told him so. Jesus then said that His kingdom was not of this world, for if it was, his servants would have prevented his arrest. Pilate says "Aha! So you do claim to be king!" Jesus than says that He came to speak the truth, and those that want the truth will listen.

It says nothing of what you say.


Really?



36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

No it is not. It is not mankinds place to judge.


Heh. So we should just live in an anarchistic society with no moral path?
"Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:1-3)


Jesus even says "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24)


Jesus also says "I judge no man". So unless your righteousness surpasses Jesus, you should not judge. As to morality, what does Man know of morality? Nothing. His place is only to love. There is only one judge of Morality, that is God.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

If we loved one another, we would not have murders, thieves, adultery, or any of the social problems we have because all would be equal in everyones eyes and we would share our love and this world.


I agree. That would be accomplished through God's law, but sin does not let that happen.


God's Law is to Love one another. Stop sinning, and it is possible. Sinning is transgressing this law. It is not thievery, it is not homosexuality, it is not adultery, it is very simply not loving one another.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

All sin is dealt with by God. He forgives those who forgive.


Indeed, all sin is judged, and one must forgive. That does not mean that consequences must not be dealt with.
edit on 3/13/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)


I assume you are a follower of monotheism and see God as Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnibenevolent, and Omniscient. Knowing this you must accept that God is within everyone.

God is within everyone.
God is within everyone.

If you judge someone, you are judging God's work, and he will judge you back.

Would you not think me a fool if I first protest that you are a fool?
Would you not seek to condemn me if I first sought to condemn you?
Would you not strike me down if upon you I struck?
Would you not hate me if I hate you?

We can only break this cycle by loving each other my friend. Call me a fool, ignore me if you will, I will love you with every ounce of my being anyway. I will also love the murderers, the rapists, the prostitutes, and all others in this world with every ounce of my being. My God can you not see what we are doing in this world?

Who can claim they know without a doubt what struggles lead another to the choices they have made? Not knowing, one is unable to judge anyone. Maybe they are perfectly justified. Maybe if they were loved they would not have made the choices that offend you.

Don't you know, Ye are God's??

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 13-3-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Romans 1&2 deal with this.

God will judge people who have honestly never heard by the light that they do see.

Those who reject Jesus (they have to have heard to reject Him) will be condemned just on that matter. This is because Jesus is God, and by rejecting Jesus, you are blatantly rejecting God.

Others who have honestly not heard will be judged by how they live. By the moral compass that God has instilled in us all.


Where did Christ ever ONCE from his own mouth EVER claim he WAS God?

With Love,

Your Brother




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