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Opinion: .223 is the worse self-defence/hunting round ever! What you want is a .243!

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posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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for those saying a bolt action just wont do...
then let me remind you about people like Charles Whitman
that morning he went to Sears and purchased a shotgun and a green rifle case. After sawing off the shotgun barrel while chatting with postman Chester Arrington, Whitman packed it together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle with a 4x Leupold Scope, an M1 carbine, a Remington .35 caliber pump rifle and various other equipment stowed in a wooden crate and his Marine footlocker. He also had a .357 Magnum revolver, 9mm German Luger, and another small caliber pistol on his person.

then he simply climbed the clock tower at University of Texas at Austin and killed 16 people and wounded 32...

lets not forget about Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock..The most famous sniper of all time... he used an tweaked Winchester Model 70 30-06




posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 


Hathcock also used an m14, m16 and a .50cal to make some of his kills. Making it very clear that it is about the skill of the shooter more than about the weapon the shooter has.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 06:04 PM
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yes but the most unknown and probably the best sharp shooter was timothy Murphy en.wikipedia.org...
and this dmna.state.ny.us... from the link,

An expert marksman (able to hit a seven inch target at 250 yards), Murphy qualified for Morgan's Rifle Corps, and was transferred to that elite organization in July 1777, shortly after its inception. In August of the same year, Murphy was one of 500 hand-picked riflemen sent north to reinforce the Continental forces
mind you this is with a flint lock! i prefer cap and ball 50 cal, and no i am not a Murphy.
edit on 10-3-2011 by bekod because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by butcher boy
 


You just made my point...
Too Much emphasis is placed on assault weapons.....!!!

Where I come from we have a saying... A good hunter can feed his family for a year with just a handful of cartridges, while in a firefight even 10,000 rounds might not be enough!

with that in mind the last thing a good Survivalist should be thinking about is buying an assault weapon! Your not John Wayne or Rambo, Alone in the woods the last thing you want is to mount a search and destroy op. Ofttimes it is better to quietly slip away to fight another day...

So assault weapons are out, what you want is a good old fashioned, (Like Grandpa use to own) quality all purpose hunting rifle...


I have been fed my family for 2 years straight with 2 cartridges. They happened to be 30-30 if your interested.

2 shots, 2 elk.

I really dislike the .223. Given the choice I would take my Garand into battle over the Bushmaster I sold...



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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DB, for those who are recoil sensitive, a Limbsaver recoil pad is a very good investment; they work with any rifle or shotgun, and sell for $20 at Wal-mart; they reduce felt recoil by 70%.


seeker



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by the seeker_713g
DB, for those who are recoil sensitive, a Limbsaver recoil pad is a very good investment; they work with any rifle or shotgun, and sell for $20 at Wal-mart; they reduce felt recoil by 70%.


seeker


i had a winchester 1300 that destroyed my shoulder every time i shot it. Limbsavers pad made it very tolerable to shoot.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 09:08 PM
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I agree with all of your points...and I have hunting rifles, shotguns, and I have the .223 assault rifle.

Why?

Because the GIs so far are still firing the.223 and I can get it off of their dead bodies...aka CharlieVC. That is also why I have several 9mm...not too many grunts carrying .45s or .308s or .303s these days.

But I have a few of those too... and the good ol' AK 47 in case the Chinese invade...NO, I am not kidding.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:07 PM
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Very good info there!

The only thing I was thinking, is that a self-defense scenario is not going to take place at 300 yards. In a non-SHTF home defense your going to be engaging someone at probably 30 feet at most. A .223 will do plenty at that range. Accuracy (as it relates to the projectile, not the shooter) is also not an issue at this range.

When/if it does hit the fan, I still don't think any long range shootouts would be taking place. If you are in a city, 300 yards is a long ways away. I can't think of too many places where you could even get a 300 yard line of sight on somebody without them being able to run away and disappear into cover after the first shot.

If you are hit with that first shot, the cartridge you WOULD use to return fire isn't going to matter much, as I would assume anyone capable of landing on target at that range would be able to do so once again quickly if the first shot doesn't kill you.

There are exceptions to this obviously. If you are the aggressor trying to pick people off at a distance a .223 wouldn't be the best choice. But I'd bet most SHTF shootouts would be done pretty close range, or not at all.

I'm not a big fan of the .223 personally. I'd rather have a 7.62 which is why I have an Ak and a Mosin if range does become a factor. As far as bolt action vs semi-auto, I'll take a semi-auto. I have no doubt there are people out there that can get rounds off quickly with a bolt gun, but that takes a lot of practice, and still is not going to be anywhere near as quick as a semi-auto. In addition to that is magazine capacity, and ease of reloading that most semi-autos have. 30 rounds, with another 30 rounds waiting 4 seconds away is much better than 4 or 5 rounds and twice the reloading time. I guess it all depends on the specific situation you are in, but I'm guessing most any situation I would be in is handled better with my Ak, than a bolt action.

One last thing I was thinking is the availability of ammunition. Odds are finding some .223 is going to be much easier than finding .243 rounds.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 11:03 PM
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I have posted here before, that my absolute favorite rifle is a .243 lever action with a 30-year-old leupold scope.

I hunt in Texas, where the deer tend to be smaller than up north. My goal for a round is to stop inside the deer's torso. If it comes out the other side, then you have wasted some valuable meat. A 30.06 is over-powered for my needs. I have used SKS to hunt before. (7.62 x 39mm), but have not been happy with the results. The gun is not particularly easy to carry through brush, and not accurate after about 120 yd. My impression is that the bullets are easily deflected by blades of grass or wind after about that distance. And I am usually shooting at deer in tall grass meadows on the edge of cedar breaks; so this possibility makes me shy away from it.

For me, the lever action is as critical as the caliber. I sometimes miss. I have never liked semi-auto actions because I don't control it's timing. Shotguns are even slower; but I worry that flinging the brass and the sound of the bolt can give away my location if I miss, or for other deer that are bystanders and the brass sparkles in the sunset. The motion of the semi-auto action also throws you off if you are trying to keep the target in the crosshairs. I hunt at twilight, and often see multiple targets at once. I can freeze, and not chamber the next round until the target is in motion, yet I keep it within the scope.

I am not good enough with bolt actions to chamber a round without taking my eye away from the scope. I have found that I CAN do so with a lever action, and have managed to hit 3 deer before a flock retreated out of sight. A bolt action is always too tight, and I end up looking down to see whether I have driven the bolt home, and end up missing any follow up shots.

I think a lot of hunters are seduced by marketing. They instinctively reach for higher caliber to make up for their own lousy aim.



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by DaddyBare
 
I am not here to argue against the .223 or argue for another round.

But I will say this:
I would much rather be shot by a .223 than a .50 cal. Browning,
'rather be shot by a .25 ACP than a .223.
would rather not be shot at all.

on the other end of the gun:
I would choose the .223 first over the other two.
.50 cal is too heavy, gun and ammo.
.25 ACP is only slightly better than being unarmed.

The .243?
I own one rifle chambered for it. It shoots straight and flat.

But you won't find too many assault weapons chambered for it. In a SHTF scenario, make sure to stockpile ammo beforehand. You won't find too much of it to loot from the walmart, and most dead soldiers won't carry any. They will be carrying .308, .223, and 9mm. Oops, depending on how bad the SHTF, they may be carrying 7.62X39.



edit on 10-3-2011 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)


I've fired .243 at the range in the UK. It's ok, but nothing compared to the full-powered round that the 7.62 NATO or .308
.223 is ok for run and gun, lighter weapon (usually) and if you like carrying more ammo, protracted gun-battles etc.
But if you want to base your survival loud-out on making rounds count and have man-stopping ability then .308 is the way forward.



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 04:44 AM
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reply to post by lernmore
 


HaHa!!

I didnt know zombies liked coffee!!

That rocks!! Ok, just for the sake of saying..if I only had 1 rifle...I think it would be a SPR type in 223/5.56..with a fast twist so I could shoot heavier HPBT rounds very very accurately...so fixes the hunting issue part of it...then, switch up the ammo for the purpose..

Zombies attacking your coffee...load up with FMJ

Hunting a deer (minus zombies of course)..just load a single 75 or 77 grain BTHP...

Not perfect...but it should work...this is all theoretical of course...I don't believe in guns...they are bad...just like zombies



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 05:24 AM
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The .223 / 5.56 is more than adequate with modern ammunition. Based on recent history many are quick to say that these rounds stink etc. If you are talking about Military/Nato spec rounds, yes. You are correct.

However, there is plenty of fantastic ammunition on the civilian market. This ammo is far superior to the ss193/m855/gen milspec and the like. I would not hesitate to pick up a weapon chambered for these rounds and go to work. It seems everyone is looking for the "ultimate magic bullet". I can tell you with confidence: they do not exist. Because no matter what the bullet is capable of ballistically, it takes someone to pull the trigger. Therein lies the weak link.

A hit with a .22 is far better than a miss with a .300 WSM. Period.

I would focus less on magic bullets and more on marksmanship. Even a .17HMR to the dome will really screw your day up. (I have seen several deer killed with a .17 HMR, with a neck shot, none of them took a step)

Anyway: the .243 is a great round. We start the women and kids on it when they first take up hunting. I wouldn't hesitate to use it either, with the right Glass, ammo and an above average rifle, that round can be downright surgical.



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 05:32 AM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by butcher boy
 


You just made my point...
Too Much emphasis is placed on assault weapons.....!!!

--

So assault weapons are out, what you want is a good old fashioned, (Like Grandpa use to own) quality all purpose hunting rifle...


When have you ever seen a hunter with an "Assault Weapon"? Let me be specific Gunny, if it isn't a select-fire or full auto capable it isn't an "Assault Weapon". A weapon that is semi automatic is just that, semi auto. Despite what it looks like or how many rounds it carries.



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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i have shot a few Kangaroos (with a permit) with my .223 (Howa 1500 bolt action),A roo is roughly man size,i will offer this,shot placement is very important,one good chest shot with 55g hollow points and down they go,
One night i mistakenly grabbed 50g FMG's i use for target's (cheap), i thought i missed 3 times
so my mate gave him a head shot with his 303,game over,on closer inspection i had hit him 3 times in the chest but couldn't see exit wounds until i looked really carefully,by this point i was slightly confused till i emptied my mag,bloody full metal jackets,i learnt my lesson that night,FMG's are useless (not that i would like to shot with one),projectile choice is very important,I have also read that using 5.56x45 Military ammo in a civilian .223 can be dangerous (more head pressure) unless the the gun is designed for both (Like a Rem 7615)



posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by Travlla
 


As to your question

I have also read that using 5.56x45 Military ammo in a civilian .223 can be dangerous (more head pressure) unless the the gun is designed for both (Like a Rem 7615)


the answer lays in a bit of history... you see the 5.56 was adapted from a .222 rem back in the 50's the 5.56 is a longer cased version of that round... the .223 didn't come around until 1964. Almost the same but with slightly diff head spaces... the official warning looks like this one from Wiki

Using 5.56 mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and SAAMI recommends against the practice.[16][17] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14 (marked ".223 cal"), but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm NATO ammunition.[18]

It should also be noted that the upper receiver (to which the barrel with its chamber are attached) and the lower receiver are entirely separate parts in AR-15 style rifles. If the lower receiver has either .223 or 5.56 stamped on it, it does not guarantee the upper assembly is rated for the same caliber, because the upper and the lower receiver in same rifle can, and frequently do, come from different manufacturers – particularly with rifles sold to civilians or second-hand rifles.




posted on Mar, 12 2011 @ 04:05 AM
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Originally posted by Travlla
i have shot a few Kangaroos (with a permit) with my .223 (Howa 1500 bolt action),A roo is roughly man size,i will offer this,shot placement is very important,one good chest shot with 55g hollow points and down they go,
One night i mistakenly grabbed 50g FMG's i use for target's (cheap), i thought i missed 3 times
so my mate gave him a head shot with his 303,game over,on closer inspection i had hit him 3 times in the chest but couldn't see exit wounds until i looked really carefully,by this point i was slightly confused till i emptied my mag,bloody full metal jackets,i learnt my lesson that night,FMG's are useless



Not that useless if you want armour piercing capability.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 04:29 AM
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about the 243, yes its a great round,it was designed to be a dual pupose round,a larger caliber just barely legal for deer hunting (over .22), and accurate and light kicking for varmit hunting, and supprisingly it does both jobs very well ,all the 243 really is,is the .308 necked down to 6mm.in SHTF salvaged empty 308,30-06,.270,25-06,and other .473(12MM) extractor base size cases can be used to make 243 ammo if you have the reloading dies and a press.while we are on the subject and for those that dont know take the 30-06, neck it down to 27 caliber you get the .270, neck that down to 25 caliber you get the 25-06, expand the 30-06 neck to 33 caliber you get the .338-06 a great non magnum large game round, neck it out to 35 caliber you get the .35 whelen and their is even a 40 whelen , but both whelen rounds arent worth buying ,shorten the 30-06 about a inch you get the .308.expand the 308 to 33 caliber you get the new .338 federal, expand to 35 an you get the 358 winchester,one of the 6.5 rounds is also the 308 necked down to 6.5 i just cant remember which one it is right now.if you want a 243 semi auto para-military rifle they make them, M1A, ar-10 ,M1 garand and others, basically any rifle made in 308 , can easily be made in 243, just a barrel change away.the 243 will make a great short to medium(100-500)yards range sniper round, but you will be adding more gear to your stock pile(rifle,ammo,realoading gear,spare parts),you should buy a 308 rifle first,then a .223 then other calibers,it will be feasable only if you have a large family and or a lot of money.speciliased rounds have their place,just after you get the primary weapons first.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by James1982
Very good info there!

The only thing I was thinking, is that a self-defense scenario is not going to take place at 300 yards. In a non-SHTF home defense your going to be engaging someone at probably 30 feet at most. A .223 will do plenty at that range. Accuracy (as it relates to the projectile, not the shooter) is also not an issue at this range.

When/if it does hit the fan, I still don't think any long range shootouts would be taking place. If you are in a city, 300 yards is a long ways away. I can't think of too many places where you could even get a 300 yard line of sight on somebody without them being able to run away and disappear into cover after the first shot.



T.


This

You get in a firefight over 100 yards? run

i will stand by the idea that a properly set up .223 rifle will be devastating compared to other rounds. The speed, low recoil, accuracy , and sighting systems devised for the AR 15 style rifle, make it very effective. For self defense. For hunting I still say 12 gauge slug which is also a very good self defense round.



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by James1982
Very good info there!

The only thing I was thinking, is that a self-defense scenario is not going to take place at 300 yards. In a non-SHTF home defense your going to be engaging someone at probably 30 feet at most. A .223 will do plenty at that range. Accuracy (as it relates to the projectile, not the shooter) is also not an issue at this range.

When/if it does hit the fan, I still don't think any long range shootouts would be taking place. If you are in a city, 300 yards is a long ways away. I can't think of too many places where you could even get a 300 yard line of sight on somebody without them being able to run away and disappear into cover after the first shot.

If you are hit with that first shot, the cartridge you WOULD use to return fire isn't going to matter much, as I would assume anyone capable of landing on target at that range would be able to do so once again quickly if the first shot doesn't kill you.

There are exceptions to this obviously. If you are the aggressor trying to pick people off at a distance a .223 wouldn't be the best choice. But I'd bet most SHTF shootouts would be done pretty close range, or not at all.



In the central US plains and American West, a lot of the landscape is flat treeless prairie. Hunting for antelope (which makes excellent jerky, by the way) often takes place at 300 yd or so. I can imagine firefights at that range at well. Unless you are in tall-grass prairie, the grass is only about 3 inches tall, so there is absolutely no cover at all.

The ranges are even greater is you are looking across a draw or valley, or, in the Rockies, from one mountainside to the next. A lot of bighorn sheep hunting is exactly like this. I suspect that a lot of sniper units are focused on mountain/desert combat when they are not training fur urban issues.

but again, it's all about the context, and may not fit with the terrain most ATSers will face. But that's while I'll be out in the middle of nowhere....
edit on 18-3-2011 by dr_strangecraft because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2011 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft


In the central US plains and American West, a lot of the landscape is flat treeless prairie. Hunting for antelope (which makes excellent jerky, by the way) often takes place at 300 yd or so. I can imagine firefights at that range at well. Unless you are in tall-grass prairie, the grass is only about 3 inches tall, so there is absolutely no cover at all.

The ranges are even greater is you are looking across a draw or valley, or, in the Rockies, from one mountainside to the next. A lot of bighorn sheep hunting is exactly like this. I suspect that a lot of sniper units are focused on mountain/desert combat when they are not training fur urban issues.

but again, it's all about the context, and may not fit with the terrain most ATSers will face. But that's while I'll be out in the middle of nowhere....
edit on 18-3-2011 by dr_strangecraft because: (no reason given)


Very true, but I'd be willing to bet the number of people getting in firefights after TSHTF will be much greater inside cities than it would be out in the middle of nowhere. There is much lower population density, in addition to less resources (I'm talking processed food, medical supplies, etc. Commercial stuff, not natural resources) in the outskirts.

I'd have to agree on getting the gun that fits the environment you are going to be using it in. Where I live a person would do much better with a high capacity semi-auto than a high powered bolt action, but the opposite very well might be true on the plains!
edit on 18-3-2011 by James1982 because: (no reason given)



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