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Opinion: .223 is the worse self-defence/hunting round ever! What you want is a .243!

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posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:06 AM
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As I stated in the title this is only my Opinion based on half a century of combined Military and general hunting experience. I am and Armorer a collector and avid re-loader. I also follow the threads here on ATS very closely and lately I have found a disturbing trend. A push away from good proven hunting rounds and weapons, towards what I feel in many cases are poorly designed paramilitary platforms. (M4/M16 or SKS AK's)

Now I too have a love of shinny new toys and as a collector I would say at least once in your life you should own and play with Bushmaster or the likes, they are a lot of fun after all. But is this the gun/round combo to bet your life on?
I say no....

to quote a good many others,
""As hunting cartridges, the .223 Rem. is best described as a varmint (ground hog, rabbit) cartridge, and the .308 Win. as an "all-around" (antelope, deer, elk) cartridge. Since enemy soldiers are approximately the size of deer, not groundhogs, the .308 is the obvious choice between the two.""

So why did the US military choose this round (5,56 or .223) over all the other's?.... Recoil control...
From 7.5 pound rifles, the .223 firing a 62 grain bullet at a 3,020 fps. generates only 4.07 ft. lbs. of recoil energy; the .308 firing a 150 grain bullet at 2,800 fps. generates 17.72 ft. lbs. of recoil energy.
what that means is two thing's the first is does not intimidate the inexperienced shooters and allows you to come back on target quickly. We have an old saying in the Marines, You cant miss fast enough to lose a gun fight. Aimed accurate fire is the key. for those reasons alone the .5,56 was chosen, not for is killing ability, period

(The velocity, energy, trajectory, and wind drift figures quoted below are taken from the 2007 Federal, Remington, and Winchester ammunition catalogs.)
Compared to its main competition in the infantry rifle cartridge sweepstakes, the 7.62x39 Soviet, the 5.56mm NATO cartridge has much higher velocity (for flatter trajectory), and slightly more energy downrange. Neither actually has much punch at medium to long range: at 200 yards they have 860-875 ft. lbs. of energy, and at 300 yards they are down to only 655-710 ft. lbs. When you consider that 900 ft. lbs. of remaining bullet energy is generally considered the minimum for reliably killing an inoffensive deer, these numbers are not impressive. For what it's worth, at each range the slightly higher figure belongs to the 5.56mm.
At typical 5.56mm velocities, this bullet's lateral drift at 300 yards in a light 10 MPH crosswind is 14.2 inches. This is enough to blow a perfectly aimed bullet completely off a Deer/man-size target! The 5.56mm 62 grain FMJ-boat tail spitzer has a BC of .307. This is still very inferior to the BC of the .243's 95 grain bullet. Good enough for varmint shooting under the best conditions, but...
At typical .243 velocities, the 95 grain bullet's lateral drift at 300 yards in a 10 MPH crosswind is about 6.3 inches.and that takes us to what a 243 is???

Per Wiki

The .243 (6mm) is based on a necked down .308 cartridge case and is known for its accuracy, flat trajectory, and relatively mild recoil.


.243 Win. is a much better killer on animals in the 100-350 pound class than the .223 Rem. A 95 grain .243 boat tail spitzer bullet at a muzzle velocity of 3,100 fps. retains 1,455 ft. lbs. of energy at 200 yards, 1,225 ft. lbs. at 300 yards, 1,024 ft. lbs. at 400 yards, and 890 ft. lbs. at 500 yards (Winchester figures). The .243 is more lethal at 500 yards than the 5.56mm NATO or 7.62x39 are at 200 yards!

In a non-sporting context, bolt-action rifles chambered for the .243 were utilized by the Los Angeles Police Department's Special Weapons And Tactics (SWAT) unit during its early years.
For Tactical Comps George Gardner said why he chose .243 Winchester for his Tactical Comp Gun. "Why would I run anything else? Think about it. I'm sending a .585 BC 115 at 3150 fps--that'll shoot inside the 6XC and .260 Rem with ease. I'm pretty sure I have found the Holy Grail of Comp Rifles!"

Of course this is all just my Opinion ... but...
the .243 is by far the better choice for a personal protection/hunting arm...plus you can pick up a new for for under $500, rather than spend a couple grand for a cheap M4 copy...


6mmBR
GA Precision
Wiki
Photos of .243 rifles
typo
edit on 10-3-2011 by DaddyBare because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-3-2011 by DaddyBare because: Typo's, typo's typo's!!!!!




posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 
I am not here to argue against the .223 or argue for another round.

But I will say this:
I would much rather be shot by a .223 than a .50 cal. Browning,
'rather be shot by a .25 ACP than a .223.
would rather not be shot at all.

on the other end of the gun:
I would choose the .223 first over the other two.
.50 cal is too heavy, gun and ammo.
.25 ACP is only slightly better than being unarmed.

The .243?
I own one rifle chambered for it. It shoots straight and flat.

But you won't find too many assault weapons chambered for it. In a SHTF scenario, make sure to stockpile ammo beforehand. You won't find too much of it to loot from the walmart, and most dead soldiers won't carry any. They will be carrying .308, .223, and 9mm. Oops, depending on how bad the SHTF, they may be carrying 7.62X39.



edit on 10-3-2011 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:30 AM
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That's a lot of great info. I'd agree about the .243 being a better round but for many people it probably boils down to economics. It is a pretty expensive round so that means less training and less on hand ammo for people on a budget.

Sure you can get a .22 and practice fundamentals but that would be an extra expense also, and still not using your primary weapon.

Just for info, I have an AR, mosin 7.62x54r and a semi auto 22, I live in an urban neighborhood so I'd probably end up going with the 22 for home defense (affraid of penetration and such) and the mosin for hunting. I plan to use the AR for NRA matches, haven't been able to do that yet.
.

Thanks again for all the info, I have a lot to learn about different rounds and always like to learn more.
edit on 10-3-2011 by usmc858 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by butcher boy
 


You just made my point...
Too Much emphasis is placed on assault weapons.....!!!

Where I come from we have a saying... A good hunter can feed his family for a year with just a handful of cartridges, while in a firefight even 10,000 rounds might not be enough!

with that in mind the last thing a good Survivalist should be thinking about is buying an assault weapon! Your not John Wayne or Rambo, Alone in the woods the last thing you want is to mount a search and destroy op. Ofttimes it is better to quietly slip away to fight another day...

So assault weapons are out, what you want is a good old fashioned, (Like Grandpa use to own) quality all purpose hunting rifle...



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by usmc858
That's a lot of great info. I'd agree about the .243 being a better round but for many people it probably boils down to economics. It is a pretty expensive round so that means less training and less on hand ammo for people on a budget.


That's pretty much what it comes to for me.

I have a few antiques and novelties that requires me to have an expensive box of hard to find ammo or two around but when all of my competitions are using .223 or .308 and a good 30% of my collection is chambered in .223 and .308 I'm not likely to adopt a new go-to cartridge anytime soon.

I'll blow through several thousand rounds of .223 in a month while in an entire year I might fire off a box of 35 Rems or just five 8x56R.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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It aint the round , it's placement and volume and duration of fire. If you think you can hold off hordes of zombie looters alone with your mini`14 you are sadly mistaken. Nothing works for anything, and if you dont have antiarmor capability and cant throw a wall of lead for a few days at least you may as well start digging your grave before you are forced to, out of breath, scared and at gunpoint.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Okay so yeah .223 ammo is cheaper in bulk... still...

From Cheaper than dirt web site
"" .243 Winchester Federal Power-Shok Soft Point 80 Grain 3330 fps 20 Round Box
Low Price: $15.81""

Most boxes of.243, 20 cost around the $20 dollar mark...
Using the same source .223/5.56 runs about the same price for a box of 20...for the better qual stuff



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by butcher boy
 


You just made my point...
Too Much emphasis is placed on assault weapons.....!!!

Where I come from we have a saying... A good hunter can feed his family for a year with just a handful of cartridges, while in a firefight even 10,000 rounds might not be enough!

with that in mind the last thing a good Survivalist should be thinking about is buying an assault weapon! Your not John Wayne or Rambo, Alone in the woods the last thing you want is to mount a search and destroy op. Ofttimes it is better to quietly slip away to fight another day...

So assault weapons are out, what you want is a good old fashioned, (Like Grandpa use to own) quality all purpose hunting rifle...
No argument with any of that.
I don't own an assault weapon.
If I could have just one caliber of weapon to carry in a true survival situation, it would be a .22 LR.
A lot of survivalists do own assault weapons though. Mainly because they are built and tested to take what a soldier will do to them.
I will differ with what your OP title says. The .223 is not the worst ever, would you rather carry a gun chambered in .32 ACP? .41 rimfire?
There are a lot worse than .223, IMO.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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I have to agree with the OP.

There's no comparison whatsoever when it comes to the accuracy or stopping power. With the bolt action .243 Savage, picking which O on a Coors can at 75-100 yds. in a dead wind is a no brainer. It just wouldn't be possible with the .223 Mini-14 shot after shot.

Of course, availability, terrain, cost and any number of factors will certainly come into play, depending on the situation. If I remember right, you're not even allowed to hunt, say, a deer with anything smaller than a .243 anyway in Calif. where I used to live.

That said, there's always going to be an instance where one might excel over the other.

Let's say you were sleeping, the end of civilization has crept upon you, and it's now up to you to keep those nasty zombies from sneaking up and making off with your last tin of coffee.

In an open field, that .243 would do a wonderful job of keeping a couple of those those caffeine cleptos from getting any closer than a few hundred yards.

If, however, you've slept in, and there's already a dozen of them violating your bush-covered bivouac and heading for that pre-filled percolator, that Garand rolling block and 20-30 quick rounds of .223 might leave you sipping on a hot cup before the sun fully rises.

Now, if when you wake up, they're already in your house drinking the aforementioned nectar, what you want to do is forget about either of those and just go for the 9.




Peace



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:05 PM
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I cant wait for all the "i can drop a deer at 100 yards with a .22, so...' people show up. lol

I have a bushy in .223. i love it. fun to shoot, and in TSHTF, it would be a trusted defensive weapon. hell, simply brandishing it would give many pause.

Now i understand it doesnt have the "stopping power" that larger calibers have. I would still rather have .223. equipped with an eotech, such as i have. i can place many shots, quite accurately, at many soft targets. Thats all i need.

As far as hunting goes, I will take a 12 gauge any day. A slug is devastating to deer, and other loads to various other critters.

Having said all that. In a TSHTF scenario, you all will be SYP! I see so many people romanticize this incredibly ridiculous scenario. Most people guns or not, will be mentally and psychologically immobilized.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
So assault weapons are out, what you want is a good old fashioned, (Like Grandpa use to own) quality all purpose hunting rifle...

I'd have to agree with this. One shot/one kill and get out of there is much preferred to "spray and pray" tactics.

I think the .223 in the miltary, in addition to points listed earlier, has a lot to do with cost. They're about as cheap to produce as you can get. This is important when you want to supply an army. In addition, I read somewhere that an estimated 90% of rounds fired are "surpression rounds", intended to make the enemy keep his head down long enough to bring artillery (or other heavy weapons) to bear. It makes little sense to supply more expensive rounds when most are not intended to hit anyone in the first place.

I'm still kinda partial to the .308, although there are many other rounds that will work just as well. Personal preference, I guess. Or maybe just old habit and familiarity.



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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I think the better round is the Remington 6.8spc. It is essentially the same as a .270 and you can buy an upper for the AR platform and you have yourself a great "all around rifle" The 5.56 NATO round is actually very good for killing humans because when it hits a person, the front of the bullet stops and the back of the bullet continues causing the bullet to "cartwheel" and break into pieces. Some autopsies of people killed with the 5.56 NATO round show that the round will enter in the torso and they will find numerous pieces throughout the body. The problem with the 5.56 NATO round is that it will not penatrate cinderblocks well, glass causes the round to deflect greatly and in many cases they will literally just ricochet off of car windshields (depending on the angle of the windshield and the angle of fire) The 6.8spc round has much better ballistics, and will reach out and touch people at longer ranges. If you want an AR, my personal opinion is to get the 5.56 NATO, and purchase a 6.8spc upper for different tactical / hunting situations. Also in my opinion you will never go wrong getting a Springfield Armory M1A .308 (7.62 NATO)

Once again this is just my opinion!
Good Thread



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by subject x
 


I agree with you on the .308...
But I picked the .243 due to it's much lower recoil...
It's quite common as a youth and ladies hunting arm ya know...

personally I shot a .308 Norma Magnum... based on a .338 Win. Mag. case necked down to accept .308" diameter bullets... but .308 Norma brass is hard to come by... as a reloader I have little problem Annealing .338 Win Mags to fit... Gives me a handy 1,000 rifle with those nice 180 grainers... of course I dont have a recoil sensitivity problem either



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:23 PM
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i am for the Grand paw gun, and one shot is all that is needed but take 3 with you, 22 cal for snake, a good knife, and good weather, this talk of 30 round mags, what kind of platform should i get, all that should be left to the mil, yes you have the right, buy one and use, but do you really plan on killing every dear, elk, or moose you see? or do you think you will be Rambo? Kill everything that moves?



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 
what is your thoughts on the 22-250 swift? rem 700 frame bolt action?


edit on 10-3-2011 by bekod because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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I have it on good authority that the only thing being routinely hunted in the woods after TSHTF is gonna be loan wolf rambo wannabe types. The ammo size isnt gonna be important because all you got will be burned off when you run into the new neighbors! To many people watched "Lost" when they should have watched "The Road" over and over until it sinks in deep..



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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Your comments are as usual, informative and well presented.
.243 is a fantastic round, as is .308 IMO. Flat shooting and hard-hitting as well as fast.
But we are talking about survival here so many other considerations must come into play -
Cost of weapon and ammunition.
Dependability of weapons platform/ ease of maintenance/ parts replacement.
Use of weapon - self-defense/ offense (?)/ tactical environment for deployment/ type of threat/ hunting use.
Availability of ammunition in a post SHTF situation.
Weight and size of ammo if you're on foot. etc.

One shot one kill is a good shooters and survivalists motto. It conserves ammunition and minimizes discovery of location of shooter. But, if a gang of 20 hungry thugs is coming to your house looking for food would you really want a bolt action rifle or would you be better served by an M4 or AK? Either of these rifles can throw a lot of lead of around in a hurry. Much depends on where you think you might be and what situations you may have to confront.
Your choice may also be affected by who else might have to use your weapon; your wife/gf (who may have never even shot a rifle before) your children,etc. Recoil might make a large caliber weapon totally ineffective in their hands.
Bottom line is there is no perfect choice for a survival rifle, only better or worse choices depending upon these variables.
That said, my 30-06 is sighted in and anything under 400 yards will get hit.
If I had the $ I would definitely trade it in for something in .243 or .308 as these cartridges give slightly better performance than my old 30-06. That "slight" difference could mean life or death.
Choose carefully!

I just came across this - www3.telus.net...
Allows your rifle to shoot smaller squib loads for small game.
Sounds pretty useful to me.
edit on 10-3-2011 by Asktheanimals because: to add link



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by Asktheanimals
 


If there is a 20 man pack of thugs coming after me that is when I break out the 870 with extended mag and fire 9 00 buck rounds towards them. Thats the equivilent of 81 9mm bullets flying down range in a matter of seconds. If that doesn't get them all then I'll pull out the USP .45 with 20 round mag and finish the rest.

Thugs 0 Me 20



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by bekod
 


I never owned a 22-250 rem... I do have a 220 swift Thompson Icon Precision Hunter... sorry folks Thompson doesn't offer that flavor anymore...

The diff between the two (22-250 and 220 swift) is about 100fps. the swift has a longer neck.. 22-250 rem is easier to find store bought ammo for BTW

where these two really shine is back in my old stomping grounds of west Texas and southern New Mexico... long flat open ground where you deal with high winds, especially late afternoon...
both guns tend to be in the high end or custom cat.... Great Coyote gun.... both of these 220 swift or 22-250 in a good qual rifle will make you feel inadequate unless your a very accomplished marksmen...as in dime sized groups at 100 yards



posted on Mar, 10 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by FriedrichNeecher
 
Great movie.
I highly recommend it. A very realistic portrayal of what SHTF would look like, IMO.

The scene at the entrance to the tunnel was filmed on an old section of the PA Turnpike in Fulton County, where I was born and raised.



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