Boycott the UK census over links to Lockheed Martin, protesters say

reply to post by johngtr

Because the census is for the government , how is a government census not related to the government

No I mean what do you think a corrupt government is going to use this information for that an incorrupt government wouldn’t? And do you have any evidence for it?

Are the services not provided by people who want to make money

Some are some aren’t.

also like i mentioned a lot of them are private owned businesses. These people get a lot more information on the services that are needed through alot more sources than a census.

With regard your examples, we’re not just talking about providing bus services nor can you simply ask a hospital how many patients they have at any one time and go from there. The reason is this does not help you see trends and plan for the future.

Hospitals, houses, schools etc, are not built as and when they are needed, they must be planned far in advanced. To do that you need to understand your demographics; you might think hospitals need X number of beds but in ten years time you may find this isn’t adequate because you didn’t know that there were a large number of people reaching 80 within those ten years. Asking a hospital how many patients they have now will not help you predict how many they will have years down the line.

That goes for many other areas, people may be having more children meaning we need to start building more schools; you wouldn’t know that if you didn’t ask.

Of course there are other sources for this information but as I said above it isn’t deemed to be the most efficient method of data collection yet.

I think the goverment should provide us with services we want and need. Not services They Think we want, What they think we Need.

It sounds like you do want it both ways; how can a government know what you want or need if you also want them to mind their own business?

reply to post by discostu123

Im sure there are plenty of legitimate and capable UK based companies that are more than eager to take up the job, especially given the state of our economy - Why not give the money (and jobs) to the UK??

The jobs are in the UK, the company given the contract is LM UK.

reply to post by AmatuerSkyWatcher

Now when you look at the above mentioned info, would you really, and be honest, really be comfortable with them holding all that info on you?

They won’t be. Did you read the link I posted on the previous page?

2011mc.census.gov.uk...

The only people who have access to the full census dataset in the operational data centre will be ONS staff.
No Lockheed Martin staff (from either the US parent or UK company) will have access to any personal census data.
ONS will control system access rights to all data systems;

reply to post by Mike_A



Below is a list of LMUK's businesses and selected activities
Aeronautics
C-130J Hercules
JSF
Distribution Technologies
Integrated Systems
UK Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD)
Merlin HM Mk.1 - Prime contractor and systems integrator for the Merlin helicopter
Merlin Capability Sustainment Plus - Mid-Life Update of Merlin
Integrated Systems & Solutions
Integrated Transport Systems
Missiles & Fire Control
GBAD
Javelin
Longbow attack radar and weapon system for WAH-64 Apache
Simulation, Training & Support
Technology Services
Atomic Weapons Establishment
Transportation and Security Solutions
Space Systems
Trident missile


but i think the point is why LM??

Now when you look at the above mentioned info, would you really, and be honest, really be comfortable with them holding all that info on you?

They won’t be. Did you read the link I posted on the previous page?

2011mc.census.gov.uk...

The only people who have access to the full census dataset in the operational data centre will be ONS staff.
No Lockheed Martin staff (from either the US parent or UK company) will have access to any personal census data.
ONS will control system access rights to all data systems;

Firstly before i answer your questions directed at me did you read the link i posted ??? --

Please read these terms carefully. If you do not agree to be bound by them, please do not use this site. The terms and conditions may be changed at any time without notice.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) has taken care to make sure the information we put on www.census.gov.uk is correct. However, no warranty, express or implied, is given as to its accuracy and we do not accept any liability for error or omission. We are not responsible for how the information is used, how it is interpreted or what reliance is placed on it.

This website uses security measures to protect the material we control from loss, misuse and alteration. However, we do not accept responsibility for any alteration or manipulation of our data once it has been released on the website.

The information on this website is subject to the conditions of Crown copyright, unless otherwise indicated. We do not guarantee that the information on www.census.gov.uk is fit for any particular purpose.

We do not guarantee that www.census.gov.uk will be available at all times, and whilst we endeavour to ensure that the website is free from errors or viruses, we cannot guarantee this. We recommend that you take adequate measures to protect your own system. If you download software or other material from this site, you do so at your own risk.

This website contains links to and from other websites. ONS does not endorse these websites and is not responsible for their content. We cannot guarantee that these links will work or that pages we link to will be available.

reply to post by discostu123

but i think the point is why LM??

The same question can be asked whoever gets the contract; because they were the best bidder. If there is any evidence of other, more nefarious reasons then it hasn’t been posted.

reply to post by johngtr

Firstly before i answer your questions directed at me did you read the link i posted ???

Yes and it refers to the information that the ONS puts on the site not the information you provide it.

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by johngtr

 

No I mean what do you think a corrupt government is going to use this information for that an incorrupt government wouldn’t? And do you have any evidence for it?

A corrupt government could use it in many diffrent ways, example - they could sell it, they could use it " as i previously said " to "target" people who they could consider a "threat" and monitor them. There are many ways they could use it, do you think our own government would not lie to us???

Some are some aren’t.

Could you name me some services that are not there money then?

With regard your examples, we’re not just talking about providing bus services nor can you simply ask a hospital how many patients they have at any one time and go from there. The reason is this does not help you see trends and plan for the future.

Hospitals, houses, schools etc, are not built as and when they are needed, they must be planned far in advanced. To do that you need to understand your demographics; you might think hospitals need X number of beds but in ten years time you may find this isn’t adequate because you didn’t know that there were a large number of people reaching 80 within those ten years. Asking a hospital how many patients they have now will not help you predict how many they will have years down the line.

That goes for many other areas, people may be having more children meaning we need to start building more schools; you wouldn’t know that if you didn’t ask.

Of course there are other sources for this information but as I said above it isn’t deemed to be the most efficient method of data collection yet.

So if they are already building more houses and hospitals already why do they need a census to carry on ?
. Also you say " Asking a hospital how many patients they have now will not help you predict how many they will have years down the line."
So how is doing a census now going to help in say 6 or 7 years time when im sure they will need information then too, are you saying they only get the information every 10 years?

They know how many people will be 80 or whatever because they have everybodys birth and death certificate on file.

Same goes for schools, They are closing schools all around, why do that before they have the census information, what if it was to show we needed those schools, Yet more money wasted by our government. They would know anyway how many children in a certain area are school age, the local councils know who is on the housing lists,what they do for a job, how old people who live their are.

It sounds like you do want it both ways; how can a government know what you want or need if you also want them to mind their own business?

Becuase we would tell them. Simple.

They do not need to know everything about me for me to ask for a youth centre to be opened ,
They do not need to know everything about a community to know it is going to need a doctors/post office/sports facilities etc. How about they ask us what we want instead of demanding information off us and then threatening people with fines that they know we cant really afford or threatening us with jail for information they already have access to.

Im sure i probably missed some points , i look forward to you pointing them out to me : )

reply to post by Mike_A


Did you also read the privacy policy?
2nd line

reply to post by Mike_A


You didn't answer my question. Knowing what Lockheed Martin has done and what it is capable of, are you comfortable with them gathering your information? I don't care what that gov.pdf says, when you take into account LM's track record. Do they sound like a wholesome corporation, who follow the letter of the law and binding contracts?

Also your "take" on my other question, regarding the question from the census would be much appreciated.

no fill it in loud and proud as english, christian weve mused with jedi but all that musing is only increasing the foreign majority

its not that invasive you can answer cryptically

reply to post by nonetruegod




Bad Edit please delete post

reply to post by johngtr

A corrupt government could use it in many diffrent ways, example - they could sell it, they could use it " as i previously said " to "target" people who they could consider a "threat" and monitor them. There are many ways they could use it, do you think our own government would not lie to us???

But you’ve already said that they already have access to this information and you think they don’t need the census so why would filling it in give them any advantage?

Could you name me some services that are not there money then?

I’ve never had to pay the fire service to put out a fire, most of the NHS is not a profit making enterprise, the police, the armed forces, care services etc but this is getting far from the point.

So if they are already building more houses and hospitals already why do they need a census to carry on ?
. Also you say " Asking a hospital how many patients they have now will not help you predict how many they will have years down the line."
So how is doing a census now going to help in say 6 or 7 years time when im sure they will need information then too, are you saying they only get the information every 10 years?

No they don’t only get the information every 10 years; between censuses figures are estimated as well as possible. The census provides an accurate basis from which to extrapolate as the accuracy of information will drift between censuses.

They know how many people will be 80 or whatever because they have everybodys birth and death certificate on file.

You’re repeating a point that has already been answered. The information may be available elsewhere but there is no means of bringing this information together to provide the whole picture; that will probably change by the time the next census is due.

Same goes for schools, They are closing schools all around, why do that before they have the census information, what if it was to show we needed those schools,

There are many factors, not least economic that feed into government policy.

I don’t know the exact rational for closing schools (is the total number of schools actually going down?) but that does not impact on the usefulness of census information.

Becuase we would tell them. Simple

How exactly would you envision this working without the government knowing our demographics?

Did you also read the privacy policy?

Yes, I don’t see where that says LM will hold the information.

reply to post by AmatuerSkyWatcher

You didn't answer my question. Knowing what Lockheed Martin has done and what it is capable of, are you comfortable with them gathering your information?

Yes.

Also your "take" on my other question, regarding the question from the census would be much appreciated.

I don’t know, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a legitimate reason for asking that questions. Why not ask them?

The main reason for the Britsh census is to track how many Jedi Knights are in the country....

How many Jedi are in the UK?

Shall I fill in the census?

Oh, of course! Wouldn't dream of committing an illegal act!! Umm...I'm sure just it'll get lost in the post again though...

Besides, any fine incurred can be paid at a paltry £5 a week with the use of a means form, were one ever to be punished for something "lost in the post".

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by johngtr

 

But you’ve already said that they already have access to this information and you think they don’t need the census so why would filling it in give them any advantage?

To quote yourself in this same post "
You’re repeating a point that has already been answered. The information may be available elsewhere but there is no means of bringing this information together to provide the whole picture; that will probably change by the time the next census is due. "

You answered that yourself.

I’ve never had to pay the fire service to put out a fire, most of the NHS is not a profit making enterprise, the police, the armed forces, care services etc but this is getting far from the point. .

Ok well maybe they are some of the Ones that dont make profit, i didnt say they "all" did. But a lot also do, And they shouldnt make profit we put all the money into those to provide a service as we pay our ever increasing taxes.

No they don’t only get the information every 10 years; between censuses figures are estimated as well as possible. The census provides an accurate basis from which to extrapolate as the accuracy of information will drift between censuses.

Yes estimated as well as possible by using records that are all ready there, that the Government must have access to.The correct departments of each " Borough " must have access to what information they already need. I am going to keep repeating myself until you take in what i did say.As long as i feel the answer is the same.
The "Government" already have all of the information they need about me on their systems .The "Government"already have "My medical records, housing records, police records, birth and death records for everybody, Passport records, DVLA records,School & Education Records,Tax & Working Records.Police Records, They know where i live and how many people are in my house when i fill in the Electoral records.

You’re repeating a point that has already been answered. The information may be available elsewhere but there is no means of bringing this information together to provide the whole picture; that will probably change by the time the next census is due.

Of course they could bring it together better, if they manage to get massive bonuses & expenses and taxed the right people and company's the right amount of money, they would have money pay pay a team of people to get all the information together in one place, and update it regularly stop estimating between every ten years.

There are many factors, not least economic that feed into government policy.

I don’t know the exact rational for closing schools (is the total number of schools actually going down?) but that does not impact on the usefulness of census information.

Yes of course there are a lot of factors, economic factorys, well like i said above , maybe if they stopped taking massive bounses and wages, maybe if they stopped wasting money on " things like the 2012 Olympics and maybe if they didnt send troops into a illegal war, there would be a little spare cash to spend on things that we do need

Im not sure as to the ratios either but i can think of at least 5 schools within my local "borough" that have been closed down within the last two years and only 1 built to replace it whilst another is still in the process of being built. " another waste of money ".

No they could ask the governing body of who ever runs the schools to give the a list of schools closed.schools built,schools in the process of being built, and any future plans for schools to be built.

How exactly would you envision this working without the government knowing our demographics?

By getting poeple to vote a lot more locally for local projects , things they need , how about actually working with a community to ask them what they need , what they want? Why wouldnt this work? Given to the right people it could, correct i might not know alot about demographics but i know enough to see that they are going about things the wrong way.

Yes, I don’t see where that says LM will hold the information.

Well on the Privacy Policy at help.census.gov.uk... it says

1."We collect three kinds of information from you: the answers you give when you complete our online questionnaire, your name and address (if you ask for any materials to be sent to you) and site usage information."

Um .. you sent me the census in the post you already have my name and address, unless they are posted randomly ? lets look at number 2.

2.Your name and address will only be used if you request additional materials from us, so that we can post them to you. You can either enter your name and address details yourself, or provide the questionnaire ID printed on the paper questionnaire so that we can retrieve your address information automatically.

Oh right so my questionnaire ID is printed on my Census, and you can retrieve my information automatically whether i fill out my name and address or not. Nice Trick

3.No personal information is stored on the computer you are using.

Ok how do you know that? how do you know what i store on my computer? That is some bad wording in my opinion

4. Your census information is used only by the Office for National Statistics (ONS). It is not shared with any other government departments. Access to your information is strictly controlled to ensure confidentiality.

Well if a different organisation is gathering it, so how do i know i can trust them, oh wait these are people who make money off war regularly.

5. ONS holds your census information securely for 100 years, after which it will be made available to family historians and other interested parties.

So they hold my information for my whole lifetime. Nice. After im dead however anybody can look at it, but not before ( apparently )

6. Under the Data Protection Act, the Census Act 1920, the Statistics & Registration Services Act (SRSA) 2007 and Census Act (NI) 1969, we have a legal duty to protect any information we collect from you.

May i just remind people that a Act is only a Act of parliament it is not a LAW.

7.If this privacy policy changes in any way, we will place an updated version on this page. Regularly reviewing this page will make sure you are always aware of what information we collect and how we use it.

Keeping your eyes peeled in case anybody spots any mistakes or lies you have put more like Again in my opinion

So anyway yes your right they dont say they will " hold " the information but they are "Collecting It"? Correct???

o.k. i have watched video's, read some of the replies, i missed the last page, i have read through my census form, which i am debating if i should fill it.

from what i can tell from the thread the bottom line is lockheed martin, now i am not saying people are not valid for having concerns or problems with that, but can somebody explain to me other than lockheed martin, why i should not fill out the form?

i have read through it, and i am not really seeing much of a problem with the questions, not to the point that it is things some government agencies/companies/employers do not already know anyway. i have already given a lot of this information away apart from who 'visits'(sleeps over on march the 27).

if these places suddenly started to share information, if the police wanted the information or MI6 etc, it is all already out there for them to gather. i have given this information to workplaces, benefits ie: child benefit/child tax credits etc, to my bank, to the council etc. not to mention previous census forms, registering to vote, then there is things other people do which do not apply to me, applying for passports, insurance, registering veichles i could go on. but all of these places or organisation i have no idea if i can trust them either or if they share my information with companies like lockheed martin anyway.

so is the bottomline lockheed martin rather than than the actual questionairre? lets say this questionairre was ran by a company who has a good track record with human rights, what then?

i am just trying to gauge if i should fill it out or not, and what exactly the problem is or if it is more than just one thing, as i am not seeing much to be concerned about with the questions, but maybe thats because my situation is different to others?

i can see this information being used to solve problems alot of brits constantly moan about, illegal immigration, benefit fruad, criminals with convictions who 'disapear' and yes can see how some of this information can help with moving around logistics to the correct area's for services inorder to be more efficent whilst keeping costs low in the current financial climate.

so other than lockheed martin (which i understand), why should people not fill out these forms?

reply to post by johngtr

To quote yourself in this same post "
You’re repeating a point that has already been answered. The information may be available elsewhere but there is no means of bringing this information together to provide the whole picture; that will probably change by the time the next census is due. "

You answered that yourself.

I thought you didn’t accept that though.

Ok well maybe they are some of the Ones that dont make profit, i didnt say they "all" did. But a lot also do, And they shouldnt make profit we put all the money into those to provide a service as we pay our ever increasing taxes.

Shouldn’t that depend on whether they can provide the service more efficiently than the public sector?

Yes estimated as well as possible by using records that are all ready there, that the Government must have access to.The correct departments of each " Borough " must have access to what information they already need. I am going to keep repeating myself until you take in what i did say

You can keep repeating yourself but the answer is no, they don’t.

Going back to the hospital example, the department of health may have access within their own system to the number of patients they have now but information held on population and age structure is spread across many different places. To understand the age structure in an area you may need birth records, death records, immigration records, electoral role, and even then you won’t get a full idea of internal movements.

The "Government" already have all of the information they need

…

Of course they could bring it together better

Your first answer in the last post seemed to accept that gathering all the information from each department was currently too inefficient. Which is it? Either they can and your worry about a corrupt government is redundant or they can’t and your argument against the census is false.

Yes of course there are a lot of factors, economic factorys, well like i said above , maybe if they stopped taking massive bounses and wages, maybe if they stopped wasting money on " things like the 2012 Olympics and maybe if they didnt send troops into a illegal war, there would be a little spare cash to spend on things that we do need

Im not sure as to the ratios either but i can think of at least 5 schools within my local "borough" that have been closed down within the last two years and only 1 built to replace it whilst another is still in the process of being built. " another waste of money ".

No they could ask the governing body of who ever runs the schools to give the a list of schools closed.schools built,schools in the process of being built, and any future plans for schools to be built.

It really sounds like you just want everything done your way.

How much would the government save by cutting bonuses?

Do you think everyone considers the Olympics a waste? Why should government listen to you over others?

Your local borough is not necessarily representative of the whole country; if you don’t know the facts don’t pretend that you do.

By getting poeple to vote a lot more locally for local projects , things they need , how about actually working with a community to ask them what they need , what they want?

But how would that work in practice? Who decides what is to be voted on, when, what turn out would be needed to get approval, what if people want more than resources allow, what if people need something they haven’t considered, etc etc?

i might not know alot about demographics but i know enough to see that they are going about things the wrong way.

You don’t know the facts but you know they’re doing it wrong. Isn’t that a bit arrogant?

If you can do better then why not stand as a councillor or MP?

Um .. you sent me the census in the post you already have my name and address, unless they are posted randomly ? lets look at number 2.

Not everyone’s postal address is their ordinary residence.

Oh right so my questionnaire ID is printed on my Census, and you can retrieve my information automatically whether i fill out my name and address or not. Nice Trick

As above some peoples postal address may not be where they actually live. If this is the case then you fill in your address and not the ID on the census.

If you actually look at the census the part that asks for your address says:

“If your address is incorrect or missing, enter your correct address here”

3.No personal information is stored on the computer you are using.

Ok how do you know that? how do you know what i store on my computer? That is some bad wording in my opinion

Really?! It’s clear what it means, i.e. personal information you enter via the website will not be stored on your computer. It’s not bad wording you’re just nitpicking.

Well if a different organisation is gathering it, so how do i know i can trust them, oh wait these are people who make money off war regularly.

Who you trust is up to you but there is nothing in those T&C or Privacy Policy that says LM will hold your information which is what was claimed.

5. ONS holds your census information securely for 100 years, after which it will be made available to family historians and other interested parties.

So they hold my information for my whole lifetime. Nice. After im dead however anybody can look at it, but not before ( apparently )

Yes it’s a matter of historical record and has been since the first census.

May i just remind people that a Act is only a Act of parliament it is not a LAW.

Ah you’re one of those “freemen”, that explains it then. An act of parliament is law, if you disagree then I invite you to break a statute law in public, in front of a police officer, video it, and then post the full results.

We will keep going around in circles,and i am tired of writing the same thing,in a diffrent manner trying to get you to see my point of view as i am sure you are with me too. I am opting to agree to dis-agree with you now. That is not the same as conceding or just avoiding questions i just dont want to keep repeating myself.,

And i really dont want to be a MP or work for a "corrupt" government myself sir,

There is enough information there for people to decide what they want to do for themselves.

May i just remind people that a Act is only a Act of parliament it is not a LAW.

Ah you’re one of those “freemen”, that explains it then. An act of parliament is law, if you disagree then I invite you to break a statute law in public, in front of a police officer, video it, and then post the full results.

Whether i am or not is not the issue.

Well shall i give you video evidence of people who have already done this?? Yes?

Kk here you go . . . please watch them

1. www.youtube.com...
2.www.youtube.com...
3.www.youtube.com...

Im sorry i cannot embed

Well thank you for all your replies, we obviously have different views.Thank you for keeping it civil.
Im keeping my opinion you can keep yours.

Peace

Mine arrived yesterday to the OCCUPIER, so I`v written on it.
RETURN TO SENDER and REFUSAL OF CONTRACT.
Let us see what they have to say about that.
Im also sending a freeman affidavit to the queen and having an affidavit drawn up and signed by a notary.
I dont give a flying fook what they have to say about it all. Im not interested in it what so ever.
I am not a number nor a `straw man.`

reply to post by johngtr


I’ve seen these kinds of videos many times.

First of all these videos do not show people breaking a statute law which is what I asked you to do.

Second a police officer is not a legal expert.

On the videos themselves;

The first video is just someone making a bit of a fuss at a police station, there is no arrestable offence shown and there is nothing to suggest that acts of parliament are not law no matter how much the cameraman insists.

The second video is more of the same, no one is breaking the law and the police aren’t trying to arrest anyone. How does that prove that acts of parliament are not law?

The third is again someone having an argument with a PCSO, not even a police officer; neither of them knows what they’re talking about. He’s not being arrested in fact he can’t be arrested by a PCSO.

Infanticide is illegal as per the infanticide act, are you suggesting that this isn’t really against the law? Grievous bodily harm, again illegal due to an act of parliament, would you expect to get away with assaulting someone if you said “ah well it’s an act not a law”?

Have you actually studied law or are you going by youtube videos and blogs?

Ah you’re one of those “freemen”, that explains it then. An act of parliament is law, if you disagree then I invite you to break a statute law in public, in front of a police officer, video it, and then post the full results.

Highlight the in front of a police officer

I’ve seen these kinds of videos many times.

First of all these videos do not show people breaking a statute law which is what I asked you to do.

Second a police officer is not a legal expert.



"The first video is just someone making a bit of a fuss at a police station, there is no arrestable offence shown and there is nothing to suggest that acts of parliament are not law no matter how much the cameraman insists.

The second video is more of the same, no one is breaking the law and the police aren’t trying to arrest anyone. How does that prove that acts of parliament are not law?

The third is again someone having an argument with a PCSO, not even a police officer; neither of them knows what they’re talking about. He’s not being arrested in fact he can’t be arrested by a PCSO.

Infanticide is illegal as per the infanticide act, are you suggesting that this isn’t really against the law? Grievous bodily harm, again illegal due to an act of parliament, would you expect to get away with assaulting someone if you said “ah well it’s an act not a law”?

Have you actually studied law or are you going by youtube videos and blogs?

I am not a expect of law ,nor do i claim to be. Are you a expert of law and if so can you prove it ?

I believe the person on 2 of those videos is a law student/has studied law thoroughly

They videos show how some police and PCO can/do try to abuse their powers.
So they is correct , in correcting the " officers ". There are many examples yes in blogs,foums,orginasations websites and on youtube, Use goolge and see for yourself.
Also are you saying you have never used a video on youtube or a link to a forum/blog or a orginasations website to use as some sort of evidence?
Infanticide act as a ACT itself is not LAW but causing harm to some body breaks common LAW.
So yes it is illegal but not by definition of the act, to be prosecuted by a act you have to consent to it.
if you do not consent they cannot prosecute. But depends on what act it is , if at its base form a act is a common Law you can be prosecuted without consent.

I hope i got that across as it meant to sound,

Lockheed Martin has been working with GCHQ since 1947 when they first formed the UKMET alliance. 50 years ago they were influencing private industry through the Office of Industrial Liaison (we used to call it codliver OIL here in the states back in the 60's because it was headquartered in Liverpool). A quick scan from Google Earth shows that the GCHQ monitoring facility is still up and running.

50.8862°N 4.5537°W

That station has historically been connected to Lockheed Martin Intercept via satellite over here in the states. If you have visited any of their monitoring sites you may notice some subtle signatures. LM likes to mark their territory with Asatu symbolism, anagrams of three locks etc. Easy to spot, perhaps some of you UK residents could give your local sites near GCHQ Bude and Menwith Hill a closer scan for us?

This is old news for the older ATS residents, but apparently now that the NWO is being more open about the actual companies involved more people are noticing? We probably should run a thread about this in the NWO forum and link it in the FAQ especially if there have been recent changes to the old UKMET arrangement.