Stars Locations are Uncertain new break through throws curveball

We know that the light from distant stars takes a very long time to reach the Earth," says Dr. Akhlesh Lakhtakia, distinguished professor of engineering science and mechanics, Penn State. "But, taking into account the distance a star will have moved while that light travels, we still may not be able to accurately locate the star.Ó

Negative phase velocity media or materials with negative refractive index may be responsible for this locational uncertainty. Recently, materials researchers at the University of California San Diego, working with micro and nano materials, developed a metamaterial that had a negative refractive index for microwaves, proving that negative phase materials could exist at least in the microwave part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Their requirements for this material were that both the relative permittivity, a measure of the charge separation in a material, and the relative permeability, a measure of how electrons loop in materials, of a substance must be less than zero.

While the implications for negative phase velocity media in the nano world are the creation of a perfect lens, a lens with no distortion with applications for optical transmission devices, CDs, DVDs, microwave systems, etc., in the universe at large, these media can disguise the location of a star, according to the researchers.

source HERE






and here it gets really interesting

Lakhtakia and Tom. G. Mackay, lecturer in Mathematics, University of Edinburgh decided to look at why the permittivity and permeability had to be less than zero. They found that one or both permeability and permittivity could be less than zero and negative phase velocity would occur. They then found that both could be greater than zero and a negative index of refraction would occur but only when special relativity came into play.

so if the conditions are right stars oe even whole galaxies could be hidden in reflective materials when special relitivity is factored into the equation. the way light interacts in these systems can be radically different than we expect which provides results that are hard to interperate.

if there is a natural gravatational lense with the correct medium density and gravity ratios we could be completely wrong about the distence of
some
most
or all of the stars

stay tunned this is big

xploder

wow. S&F for you. That is pretty nuts!

What they found was that it depends on the state of the observer whether any particular media at any time has negative or positive index of refraction. The relative velocity of the observer changes the index of any material.

"Light coming off a stellar object passes through many different regions of space filled with different media and is affected by different gravitational fields," says Lakhtakia. "When we finally see it, we cannot really know where it originated."

source HERE

so if proven correct this will effect the whole redshift distence calculation we use with luminosity to calculate distence.

this is huge!!!!!!

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


yea, i was just about to say...wtf! Can you elaborate a little more on what this would actually mean? What changes would it bring to what we know now or what would it effect? Just trying to get more insight

Originally posted by cabuki
wow. S&F for you. That is pretty nuts!

recent discoveries with gravatational lensing now is confirmed with a high percentage of "distent" objects up to 50 % of very high red shifts are gravatationally lensed.
combine the results

the lead scientist on the gravity lensing study said

its like looking though a house of mirrors,

if density medium/reflective index and special relitivity combine natually
then our telescopes could be fooling us into seeing things
in the wrong place
at the wrong scale
moving in the wrong direction
not visable at all
reflected all over the observable universe
refracted into different wave lenghts

makes me wounder if the universe is really expanding?

xploder

Originally posted by cabuki
reply to post by XPLodER

 

yea, i was just about to say...wtf! Can you elaborate a little more on what this would actually mean? What changes would it bring to what we know now or what would it effect? Just trying to get more insight

we expect light to come to us uninterupted (other than cosmological expansion) and maby small gravity effects

but what i understand (still too excited too think)

light is bouncing around like a pin ball all over the place before getting to our telescopes
the changes in the light were explained by objects
moving away from us
getting closer to us

but now it may be that giant gravity lenses give the light a tweek
this COULD change the optical colour
this could change how far away some thing is
this could change "how light changes into a different range" ie visable -ultra violet
this could change the age and size of the universe
this could change how much mass is missing


so much more
im off to get more stuff for the thread
brb
xp

ok so if light travels through a medium (gas) light can be bent (refracted)
if the gas is in a strong gravatational lense the light can bend (refract) in the opposite direction from what we expect

this means objects could be in a different location than we think

light could be seen by us as infra red or xrays instead of white light

this is only one part of what is effected

brb
xp

Originally posted by cabuki
reply to post by XPLodER

 

yea, i was just about to say...wtf! Can you elaborate a little more on what this would actually mean? What changes would it bring to what we know now or what would it effect? Just trying to get more insight

First I did the derivations with the observer moving and the energy source stationary," says Lakhtakia. " Then Mackay did the derivations with the observer stationary and the light source moving."

What they found was that it depends on the state of the observer whether any particular media at any time has negative or positive index of refraction. The relative velocity of the observer changes the index of any material.

source HERE

the observation of a type of shift in light called redshift or blueshift is directly impacted by weather the observer is moving, the density of the gravity, the density of the gas we are looking through and lastly which direction the object we are observing is moving.

its possable for the object to be moving in nearly any direction and still look like its moving away from us

xploder

there does not look like any direct observational data sighted in this study
at the moment it sounds like computer simulations and bench top experiments

but it sounds like depending on weather or not we are traveling in the equation allows different observations to occour

if this is occouring in space (i suspect it is)

we could be looking at things that arnt really were they look to be
other things would seem "invisable" to our telescopes
the distence to objects would be put into doubt
galaxies may not be rotating to fast

im having a drink to celebrate and process the info

xp

The researchers looked at transmission through space, where high velocities are common.

"First I did the derivations with the observer moving and the energy source stationary," says Lakhtakia. " Then Mackay did the derivations with the observer stationary and the light source moving."

i can now confirm that this does apply to inter stella and inter galactic scales
this could change alot of sciences

xploder

Could the oort cloud act as a lens? I know nothing about it, I am just slightly aware of its existence.

reply to post by XPLodER


If a star is ten thousand light years away, by the time we see its image, its light, it has had ten thousand years to move from the location we see. The further away, the bigger the difference in perceived location for us vs actual location.

This should be a simple correction factor if so.....I think it is indicative of much more than that.
Just moving in a certain direction for an extra 10000yrs would correct fairly simply if we know he direction.
It is not knowing which direction the distant star may be going that really monkey wrenches it.
It makes me wonder if the alien concept of light being a state of field, and not moving per se is maybe more to the point......

So in other words Celestial objects can remain unseen from various influences. I like the thought of things being hidden behind reflective materials. Hide and go seek goes universal

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Kinda. Essentially galaxies if positioned and composed just right, act like a refracting lens. I recall watching, maybe a nova episode, talking about this and how light from a distant galaxy could bend around a galaxy between us, allowing us to see the rear object, but not the front as the light is bending around it.

they've been talking about this for some time actually and it indeed could change things considerably.

I guess this explains how two objects apparently residing within the same galactic body can appear to be red shifted by thousands of km/sec from eachother.

Originally posted by stirling
This should be a simple correction factor if so.....I think it is indicative of much more than that.
Just moving in a certain direction for an extra 10000yrs would correct fairly simply if we know he direction.
It is not knowing which direction the distant star may be going that really monkey wrenches it.
It makes me wonder if the alien concept of light being a state of field, and not moving per se is maybe more to the point......

Not really a simple correction, if what we see out there is wrong and the universe isn't expanding, then "bang" goes the big bang theory and dark energy, if stars in a galaxy aren't rotating at the same constant speed then "bang" goes dark matter, if galaxy's aren't affecting each other then "bang" goes dark flow theory, there is sooo much science and math based on observation's of the outside universe, hell even black holes could come into question.

If this rings true to the OP's take on it then it could be back to the drawing board for a lot of scientists not just a case of making a simple correction.

Ok going to sound really stupid here, but if all this means that the stars we see, aren't actually where we are seeing them, does this in turn impact our calculations of asteroids, and alike, i.e could we mistake a near miss, and it actually become a hit? or does the this only affect the stars?

If this causes the current theories surrounding our Universe to fall away (Relativity) and we find out the the Math we have used to calculate everything is completely off base... Do you think they will give a closer look at Plasma Cosmology as truth, rather than pseudo-science. I always felt that their was something wrong with the current model of the Universe (Especially when they need to make up "things" in space to explain away strange behaviors.)

reply to post by TheSparrowSings


Are you talking about everything being electrical? I saw a documentary on it ages ago but never really took to it although I found the stuff about the electric sun interesting.