Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but come on. This country has gotten to be at the point where responsibility has been almost completely removed and where we change everything around us to make us more comfortable. This whole topic is just another example. I believe the entire Bible, not just the parts that suit me, of course Jesus was born of a virgin, it was fortold centuries before. If it makes anyone feel better to think otherwise then I pity you.

Originally posted by deesw
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but come on. This country has gotten to be at the point where responsibility has been almost completely removed and where we change everything around us to make us more comfortable. This whole topic is just another example.

I know that I was led to believe that this site once held a European birth, and while I am aware it has migrated to "this country" and accepted citizenship, I do say I missed the nationalistic decree.

Originally posted by Amadeus
But as Professor Barrett used to tell us poor theology students..."reconstructing the "Jesus of History" is like trying to "reconstruct the Pig from the Sausage..."

I love that!

I've been reading a few of your posts Amadeus, Whilst I felt my understanding of the 'Jesus' story shrink with every paragraph, they've been both entertaining and informative - Thanks for posting some books of interest, I intend to follow up on some of those recommendations.

Originally posted by deesw
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but come on. I believe the entire Bible, not just the parts that suit me, of course Jesus was born of a virgin, it was fortold centuries before.

Besides that, these biblical points are worth considering.
1. Mother Mary takes charge of supplying the wine when it ran out, an odd thing for a guest to do, when tradition is that the groom's family does so.
2. The couple who are married at Canaa, are curiously anonymous. Why?
3. Jesus supplies the wine, and the mc praises the groom, thereby supporting the traditional responsibility is the groom's family.
John 2:11 states that this is the 1st miracle, reveals Jesus' glory, and the disciples believed in Him.
4. Nowhere in the NT does it mention Jesus' marital status, one way or the other..........why? A valid question, I feel.
5. Three, not one or two, three times He is called Rabbi, a title which has as a firm prerequisite that the man be wedded.
6. So.....if He is not wedded, why does no one notice the obvious and comment on the contradiction?
7. Jesus preached that marriage is good, and divorce is bad. In this case, we are asked to believe that He did not take His own advice,
on top of the half dozen previous suggestive points. I look at Him as a do as I do, not do as I say kind of teacher, how do you see Him?

8. At the empty tomb, who would you predict would arrive at the tomb first that morning? Those who were closest to Him would.
Luke 24:10 "It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James........."
John 1:29 "Behold the lamb of God" This is John the Baptist being quoted, and the lamb of God he is referring to is Jesus.
Revelations 21:9, (note the similar verse numbers, considering both chapters are by John). "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the lamb's wife."

Sure, a Talmud blasphemy written by a priest or scribe pissed off by the recent Roman destruction of Jerusalem would surely count as reliable. *NOT!*

No seriously this story was a reactionary piece of blasphemy by a pissed off Pharisee who must have heard the prophecy on Jerusalem's destruction and had to change the subject to stop thinking about his mistakes. It's so ridiculous that I just have to laugh a bit at it. Do you also believe the ridiculous tale of a scribe who used sorcery to call up Titus,Balaam and Jesus Christ from Hell ? (imagine that one- typical talmudic hystericism) these tales were in fact created by non other than the Temple priesthood according to the NT itself (!)

Even the Da Vinci code isn't that ridiculous. Love it when Paul says "and my people take this tale to this day". Man, things don't change. Humanity is doomed to commit the same mistakes.


[edit on 13-2-2006 by Nakash]

Bible translation is always a problem people add their interpretation when rounding the nearest value but apart from that it’s as historically accurate book that you are likely to get. But what is the big fuss about Jesus being a bastard. So history was changed for that reason were people so perfect in those days that it was impossible to have unwanted pregnancies or were their laws so recited by everyone that they kept the commands of the Torah to perfection and know by all Jews all by heart? They were good at keeping mental knowledge that is why Jews recite the Old Testament all by heart and keep the tradition going. Unless Jesus was born to the bloodline of the prophets related to Abraham, Isaac, Moses, king David and the rest so that it was cover-up that Marie had a child without being married. She could still have got married before the birth and covered it up.
But it does not prove the fact who Jesus became and done with the fulfilment of prophecy from birth till death. It’s too much of a cover-up if they wrote the Bible 70years after he was born just for that reason. Jesus was right about a lot of things of today and like he said his words would never go away and 2006 years later he is still right.

But what is the big fuss about Jesus being a bastard.

Uh, cuz it undermine's the whole christian faith in jesus being the son of god?

Think about it ... Joseph and mary do the nasty. Mary realize's she's pregnent. So out of fear she lead's people to believe her unborn child is the sun of god. Baby jeebus is born and people automagically worship him as the sun of god. The whole sun of god is born of a lie. Sure, the moral teaching's may be acceptable, but the whole belief that jeebus is god would be a false belief, which christianity is founded on.

Nice Produkt, yet I doubt anybody cares about your reactionary stupidity.

Click

GNORE>

Poke fun at a religion all you want, but when you attack the deity himself then you've crossed the line. Why do Jesus and the Bible scare people so much? I would imagine that if someone was slandering Buddha or Muhhamad on here people would flip. Attack the religion, but leave the deity alone.

Originally posted by deesw
Poke fun at a religion all you want, but when you attack the deity himself then you've crossed the line.

why?
i honestly don't see any reasoning

Why do Jesus and the Bible scare people so much?

see the works of richard dawkins for this one
hell, an entire 200 page thread could be started and we'd only scratch the surface on that issue.

I would imagine that if someone was slandering Buddha or Muhhamad on here people would flip. Attack the religion, but leave the deity alone.

well, neither of your examples is a deity
you have a truely enlightened individual and a prophet

also, people flip when you "attack" "jesus"
people got upset about insults on muhhamed

why should we leave the deity alone?
you're just stating that i should, but where is the reasoning

You don't even deserve a response to that

Hey dees, I'll respond to it and will explain why.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by deesw
Poke fun at a religion all you want, but when you attack the deity himself then you've crossed the line.

why?
i honestly don't see any reasoning

The reason why this is disrespectful to dees perhaps is because of knowing otherwise. I see your point though madness, if you cannot prove it exists, go ahead and attack it. I will provide this warning however, I learned this truth by provocation myself but there is an easier way. My hope then is that you do not require the same scorchmarks that I did.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Why do Jesus and the Bible scare people so much?

see the works of richard dawkins for this one
hell, an entire 200 page thread could be started and we'd only scratch the surface on that issue.

This looks like a dodging of the issue. Can you simply answer the question?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, neither of your examples is a deity
you have a truely enlightened individual and a prophet

This is your judgement/opinion, which has no bearing on the considerations of others. You know as well as me and dees that we consider Jesus Christ as the son of God, who came from God and is of God.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
also, people flip when you "attack" "jesus"
people got upset about insults on muhhamed

why should we leave the deity alone?

I say don't leave Christ alone at all. I'd rather you attack Him than leave Him alone. Perhaps you'll get your answer instead of those who ignore the issue. Just be prepared to take more than what you give.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you're just stating that i should, but where is the reasoning

I don't think dees is trying to "guard Jesus". Christ more than capable of guarding himself should he need it. I believe his concern is for you. Correct me if I'm wrong dees. I share that concern, but would rather you provoke to get an answer than to dismiss without ever finding it.

[edit on 23-2-2007 by saint4God]

I see what you are saying Saint. I have been a Christian for the better part of my life and I can take Baptist jokes, and Presbytarian jokes, and the likes, but can't get behind humor or attacks that downright demean God and his authority. It's one thing to slander a Christian, but delves into a whole new realm slandering the Rock on which we stand. I don't anger about it, just don't care for it.
Look at Williams and Mary college in the news here lately. They take God out of the school, then bring sex toys and classes along with strip teases. There is a pattern forming in this nation. It is a pattern of turning and attacking God like a bunch of spoiled kids that can't do what they want to and talk back to their parents. We never acknowledge God at all until someone dies or gets hurt. We remove him from our government and our schools and then have the nerve to ask him where he was when things like Katrina and 911 happen.
It's good to see that there are still a few Christians on here. I haven't been on here in a while, but last time I was on it appeared that the Christian viewpoint wasn't welcome very much.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


well, neither of your examples is a deity
you have a truely enlightened individual and a prophet

also, people flip when you "attack" "jesus"
people got upset about insults on muhhamed

why should we leave the deity alone?
you're just stating that i should, but where is the reasoning

How about out of simple respect for another's beliefs madness? is that too much to ask? Do I show you any different when you bable on about atheism? No, I treat you with respect. At least do the same for others out of common decency.

People do fear Jesus and the bible because they fear Grace and they fear the righteous path. FEW people, including, clergy can live up to the expectations of the bible..... hell, thats most of the story...no one can live up to it.

Answer me this Madness.
why do you choose to not believe in what the Bible says?
I'll tell you why I choose to believe it.
If I am wrong, I've lost nothing at all.
If I am right, then I have gained eternity.
Every single second of every single day everything in the world is held in a perfect balance. The moon is kept the perfect distance from the Earth, the sun is as well. There is the perfect mix of gases in the atmosphere to keep us alive every day. I could go on and on. That is why I believe.
Why do you not?

Originally posted by deesw
Answer me this Madness.
why do you choose to not believe in what the Bible says?

well, i don't choose to believe ALL of what the bible says
some of it i tend to agree with
much of the morality
i just find spirituality to be illogical and pointless

I'll tell you why I choose to believe it.
If I am wrong, I've lost nothing at all.
If I am right, then I have gained eternity.

this must be the fiftieth time i've encountered pascal's wager
there is a flaw in your argument
the possibility that not only are you wrong, but another religion is right

Every single second of every single day everything in the world is held in a perfect balance. The moon is kept the perfect distance from the Earth, the sun is as well. There is the perfect mix of gases in the atmosphere to keep us alive every day. I could go on and on. That is why I believe.
Why do you not?

because, they aren't PERFECT, they're in the range of sustaining life
and that "god did it" isn't an argument that you can support

saint, i'm not going to explain why "jesus" and the bible are scarey to people explicitly
i'll just say that irrational beliefs in general are quite scarey

and about respecting people's beliefs
i don't think beliefs are deserving of respect
only the people that believe them are
attack the arguments, not the arguer

[edit on 2/23/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
because, they aren't PERFECT, they're in the range of sustaining life
and that "god did it" isn't an argument that you can support

Not perfect according to who? You?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, i'm not going to explain why "jesus" and the bible are scarey to people explicitly

Rats, you had piqued my interest...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'll just say that irrational beliefs in general are quite scarey

I agree irrational beliefs are quite scarey.

Originally posted by saint4God
Not perfect according to who? You?

my point is that there is no perfect condition
just a range of conditions that would theoretically support life
we just happen to fall in that range

I agree irrational beliefs are quite scarey.

and is faith not irrational?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
my point is that there is no perfect condition
just a range of conditions that would theoretically support life
we just happen to fall in that range

Suppose the perfect condition is to have a range instead of a finite point. That kind of flexibility can be perfection in itself. If life support were only able to function as a finite point, do you not think we'd mess it up entirely? Example: global warming hypothesis.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and is faith not irrational?

Of course not. Irrational beliefs tend to be a derivative of compulsive emotion with neither foundation or true justification. You said you believe in humanity. That is a faith. I can justify my faith and verify its foundation. I have the relationship and have seen it work. It's not an "irrational belief", rather a rational one as I'm sure you'd argue your belief in humanity is as well.

[edit on 24-2-2007 by saint4God]

No man that has ever set out to disprove the Bible has ever been able to do it. Why would it be so important for anyone to try and disprove Jesus' Deity? That is a question that I would really like a rational answer to. Madness,,,, care to take a crack at it? Why is it so important to you that Jesus isn't who he says he is? Does it change your world? Does it change the fabric of your being? Faith is the belief in something that you can't see or hear or touch or prove. How do you know that you have a spleen? Can you see it? Can you feel it or hear it? Someone has told you that you have one. You've probably even seen pictures of one. Perhaps maybe even seen one in an autopsy. I have seen pictures of Jesus, read stories about Jesus, seen miracles first hand that have no scientific explaination whatsoever. How is one thing that someone just tells you so easy to believe and others not so easy? You are free to believe whatever you believe, but why go out of your way to try and disprove the fundamental beliefs of someone's religion?