Chinese think tank says Christianity is what made the West successful.

Originally posted by Durchlaucht

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Durchlaucht
I fail to see where I have "rage". I am simply giving some of your churchs BS back! For ages we have sat by and been spit on and cast aside as second class if we didn't walk like you, talk like you, act like you, dress like, live like you and most importantly believe as you do. Your kind is on the loosing end and it is about time!! Now, dont you have a rapture to get to??

I don't have a 'church'...
...I am a Christian but I am not religious...
...I have not been inside a church building (except for weddings and funerals) for more than 30 years...
...I have never made demands on how anyone should behave or present themselves...
...oh and I don't believe in 'the rapture' or even hell...
...but I am a Christian and I know the Spirit...
...and I would still like to know why you are so angry.

My sincerest appologies to you for making blanket statements that probably do not apply to you. Yes I have quite a bit of anger right now towards all religion and maybe I should find a more constructive way of dealing with it. I really am sorry for attacking you personally as I dont know you or anything about you just as I know there is no way for you to know my situation as well. I was raised Christian, in a very famous family and not so common a situation. It is hard to live in exile because of things that were not my choice or because of loving someone.

I didn't need an apology but I accept the sentiment...
...I was the third generation of a family in a fringe religion...
...I obtained a degree in Theology and worked as a minister...
...but I left and studied my way through all the issues...
...as a result I was shunned by my family and written out of their will...
...maybe we are not too far apart really.

Let me say this, there is institutional Christianity and there is true Christianity...
...the true one is worth finding.

Originally posted by Firefly_

Originally posted by Durchlaucht
Sorry, but I have earned my furry towards their religion. I disagree with you when the followers also believe that they are so corect in their beliefes that they feel they have the right to treat others badly. They are ultimatley responsible for their own actions. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to shoot someone, you know that is wrong. I fail to see how holding a bible to someones head and saying the same thing is any different.

Theres no need to aplogise. I understand what you are saying, I have been there myself and still am to a degree, but this rage will ease off. I do agree that people are responsible for their actions but they are doing something they are programmed to believe is right, and are programmed to reject common sense, more than likely from birth by other programmed people.

It is their leaders and those amongst them that continue the charade even though they know what they are doing is wrong who the ultimate responsibility must fall upon, like the person putting a gun to someones head and forcing them to do something bad. It will take a VERY strong (or suicidal) person to say no. Survival is a very powerful instinct in humans.

I see what you are saying now. You are correct about the powerful persuasion that they are under. Most of us that have escape that way of thinking can look back and see that we were once sucked in by the same measures. I really hope this anger that I have goes away at some point because it is not who I am at my core. I still bvelieve in love and kindness and that people should be free to believe what they believe as long as they stop hurting others to do it.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Durchlaucht

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Durchlaucht
I fail to see where I have "rage". I am simply giving some of your churchs BS back! For ages we have sat by and been spit on and cast aside as second class if we didn't walk like you, talk like you, act like you, dress like, live like you and most importantly believe as you do. Your kind is on the loosing end and it is about time!! Now, dont you have a rapture to get to??

I don't have a 'church'...
...I am a Christian but I am not religious...
...I have not been inside a church building (except for weddings and funerals) for more than 30 years...
...I have never made demands on how anyone should behave or present themselves...
...oh and I don't believe in 'the rapture' or even hell...
...but I am a Christian and I know the Spirit...
...and I would still like to know why you are so angry.

My sincerest appologies to you for making blanket statements that probably do not apply to you. Yes I have quite a bit of anger right now towards all religion and maybe I should find a more constructive way of dealing with it. I really am sorry for attacking you personally as I dont know you or anything about you just as I know there is no way for you to know my situation as well. I was raised Christian, in a very famous family and not so common a situation. It is hard to live in exile because of things that were not my choice or because of loving someone.

I didn't need an apology but I accept the sentiment...
...I was the third generation of a family in a fringe religion...
...I obtained a degree in Theology and worked as a minister...
...but I left and studied my way through all the issues...
...as a result I was shunned by my family and written out of their will...
...maybe we are not too far apart really.

Let me say this, there is institutional Christianity and there is true Christianity...
...the true one is worth finding.

Perhaps that is the path I am now on............

"While the other world religions emphasized mystery and intuition, Christianity alone embraced reason and logic as the primary guide to religious truth” Rodney Stark

A leading Chinese scholar quoted in The Victory of Reason explains what accounted for the success of the West:

"At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Next we focused on your economic system. But in the past twenty years, we have realized that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this (p. 235).

Originally posted by asmall89
I think what this Chinese Think Tank is saying is related to mostly the US and Canada. In particular the Pilgrims who came to the colonies for a better life and to escape State Run Religion by such countries as England. From what I remember the Pilgrims were made up of mostly protestant religious sects like the Quakers and Puritans (not all of them were of course). The philosophy that stemmed from these pilgrims was one of the most important rights in our Constitution - the freedom of religion and separation between church and state.

The Protestant work ethic is how the West has prospered. This fundamentally good and positive value, so promptly and effectively hijacked by the money mongers, enslaved the sweat and toil of the dawn to dusk grafters and helped external collectives, ie governments and corporations, to prosper at the expense of the common man.

they're willing to change religiononly for economic purposes?
My god the chinese only think about money
Im serious,it's scary.
Even my chinese friends talks like he'd KILL me for money.
Even his own mother.It's ridiculous.

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

As I asked, what do you have against Chinese Christians?

I have absolutely nothing against them. In fact, I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any Country that has had to put up with missionaries scaring them into converting to Christianity.

ALL the Semitic religions, Islam/Christianity/Judaism, need to go away.

edit on 3/8/2011 by dalan. because: (no reason given)

LOL! Can you...or anybody here imagine a world where humans had no fear of eternal punishment?

Where you would see the total unmasking of the human savagery on their fellow man?

Where somebody would kill you over a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? (Hell....just for the jelly!)

reply to post by FortAnthem

Yesterday when I read this I was like DUH. I mean when you look at the people that do the patriotic rallies and have hte american flag on their car and the rightwingers and even some people in the military you see a lot of evangelicals and baptists. They're very stubborn and I would NOT want to be their enemy! Their thinking is very absolute. They can't think in relative terms. Everything to them is a closed book. But this is exactly what has made them so aggressive and dominant. Ever heard that those who think they're the most right are the most dangerous? That's what this is about.

At first I thought this was China giving America a nod. They were giving us a compliment. But today this morning I had a thought. China doesn't like us. Why would they give us a compliment? What reason do they have to make us feel good about our dominance? Then it hit me. This isn't a compliment. This is them essentially saying, "The reason the all powerful imperial US dominates the world isn't because they have or had bigger guns than us, it's because of Christianity." This might seem like a good thing if you're not reading it carefully. But what it's saying is that we DOMINATE and we're IMPERIALISTIC. That part still remains! And the reason? Christianity! They're not giving us a compliment, they're just explaining how america the empire got big. They're associating christianity with america! So when people think in negative terms about us here in america they will think of christianity. Think about that for a moment. This is not a compliment. It's much more sinister.

Just think for a moment all of the negative things China could say about us. You know they can! And now because of what they've said here people will think of christianity if they think of america negatively. Can't you see the problem with this? This is associating religion with america the empire.

So now when they do their propaganda people will associate americans with christianity. They will associate any negatives with christianity as well. Don't be so gullible to think that the communist leaders would throw compliments at us! They're using this to justify their different approach.

The reason I think america is doing well is because we had virgin land. We had to smoke out the natives, but afterwards we had this entire country, rich in resources, to ourselves. I've not much idea about europe, but I know they spread themselves out real well both with their religion and their weapons. It wasn't peaceful. I think that christianity certainly helped, but it wasn't the only helper for sure. There're many factors in this. I feel very bad about this linking the west with christianity because I feel they're using it. A good leader never passes up an opportunity to smear you!

Christians know this anyway, there are some spiritual factors involved all this which the Bible explains too. God will help nations that follow him, watch the world now in the West who are less reliant of God and Christ and see their slow demise, other religions have come in place and even taken Christ's word to court, some win some lose and political correctness has blinded them and made them weak.

Secondly there is the Spirit of God at work, when it is strong in a city or nation it helps it prosper; people will find answers where they would not normally, God will inspire people find solutions and inventions. Look at the Jews today, what a minority today compared to the Arabs and yet they have been the top brains in discovery in science and technology and even Show business, because like the Bible says God will guide the Jews when they comply to Him.

As for Israel the Bible states that that whole support it as a nation will be blessed, America supports it and is spiritually blessed as the richest country, you have seen what happens when America becomes un-Christian like the world hates them. You have seen the curse of the Arab leaders and countries who hate Israel they never have peace amongst themselves. The Bible even says that these nations will behave like this because their hearts are against his people the Jews who have yet to realise their destiny and their Messiah.

We have seen what empires and dictators have to say about Jews because there is an evil side to all this blessings against God and people become possessed like in wanting to wipe out the Jews and their history we see it even today.

There is a book called 'Eye to Eye' that explains that when America stops Israel in their developments that God sends a message who stops the protection of certain economic events and natural disasters taking place, so far America and the white house are stoned under and just maybe 'snowmaggedon' is another sign maybe because they won't allow delevopment of new settlements and this also coincided with Katrina when Israel were told to get out of certain areas for buildings work.

The more people are Saved the more God works with us and you have to think of it that way too.

Unless the Chinese have some kind of technology which allows them to view alternate timelines where other religions than Christianity became dominant and turned out a lesser society - there's just no way of knowing.

Maybe if the pagans of old (in Mid/West Europe) were not forced into conversion things would have turned out wildly different, maybe there would still be explorations going on the same way happened during Christianity but those pagans would have made peace with native americans, since they lie closer to eachother or resemble eachother more than Christianity. Maybe a technological revolution would have happened at a later stage but under different circumstances, a matriarchical society instead of patriarchical or maybe even a balance between those. Capitalism would not have occured, maybe if the idea of being here on this planet only once (and going to heaven after death), people would not have chosen for a 'throw away' consuming everything and 'take what you can while you can' culture.

Originally posted by Misoir
Is it not quite humorous how it always takes an outside source to show you the truth about yourself? Christianity the religion transformed the West and made it great due to the Christian ethos it espoused. Christianity truly prevails and shines when it is left as the spiritual, moral, and guiding force behind the decisions, virtue, and ideals of the people within a nation.

Christianity when not practiced by the state is a peaceful, respectful, insightful, and virtuous religion. This religion has inspired some of the greatest men in Western history to reach for the stars. Countless great events and ideals were founded and pursued in the name of Jesus Christ and the almighty God. However tables could be turned and the same argument could be made that great evils were done in the name of Christianity, but if you took your time to read and fully understand the morals and teachings of Jesus Christ then you will understand any wrongdoing in the name of Jesus Christ is merely using his name for their own sick gain.

When we finally realize what built all the beautiful churches, cathedrals, cultures, peoples, nations, philosophies, nations, traditions, architecture, and inspired our greatest writers, thinkers, philosophers, scientists, and heroes was Christianity maybe we can wake up from this slumber where we reject everything about our rich and glorious past in favor of rejoices around the Christmas Tree for what we have that was built with the blood, sweat, and tears of fallen Christians ancestors and brethren.

edit on 3/8/2011 by Misoir because: (no reason given)

This is one of your best posts ever, all built around a very simple fact.
I gave a star, it deserves a lot more.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by FalselyFlagged

 

We have Washington, Jefferson, and Andrew freaking Jackson in our currency. I don't think we can gripe about Mao being on theirs seeing as we celebrate two genocidal village-burners and a slave rapist.

Meanwhile Mao killed more people than all the people in the colonies combined. But because you apparently have a beef against the Church or maybe Christianity as a whole Mao is forgiven?



reply to post by SevenThunders

reply to post by Flighty

reply to post by Misoir



The Chinese perspective should be viewed with respect. They are and have pushed atheism so their view is unbiased. They are very pragmatic regarding controlling of the masses. Good, Bad or Indifferent, Christianity on the whole as previously been stated has been a unifying force in the West. [Admittedly at a great and horrendous cost] to many non European natives around the globe with the expansion of European powers during the past 500 to 600 years.

Of course this will be an issue with many who rightfully or wrongly take sides against Christianity.

That's a given.

PEACE

Slay

I gotta be honest.. this sounds like complete bologne.

I just can't see the Chinese saying this stuff.
"We were trying to figure out why you are better than us and decided it's your religion."
Yeaah right.

reply to post by FortAnthem


You have been misinformed.... there are Christians in China and they are not forbidden to practice their faith... only to not promote it publicly. There's even a State-approved Catholic Church!

But China is NOT a Christian country. They are historically taoist/confusian/buddhist, and this means they are atheists, as none of these philosophies teach to worship gods (at least in the form of spiritual entities). What's the problem with protecting their own values and beliefs?

And since they know that Christianity is a tool for imperialism, that's why their socialist government is very cautious with this religion.

China apparently wants closer ties with the Catholics.

China urges Vatican to improve ties

The Vatican should take actions, instead of creating barriers, if it wants to improve ties with China, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said Saturday.

Qin made the remarks when answering a question about Pope Benedict XVI's open letter to Chinese Catholics.

"China's stance on improving relations with the Vatican is consistent. Namely, Vatican should sever the so called diplomatic ties with Taiwan and recognize the People's Republic of China is the sole government representing China," said Qin.

But I think that's more politics over Taiwan than anything else....

Interesting to note: In China they don't believe in separation between Church and State. In China they choose the Catholic Cardinals, Jewish and Muslim heads as well. All with the understanding that "China" comes first then their respective religions second.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Interesting to note: In China they don't believe in separation between Church and State. In China they choose the Catholic Cardinals, Jewish and Muslim heads as well. All with the understanding that "China" comes first then their respective religions second.

That could solve all of these immigration problems in the West, don't you think? Nobody is forced to convert to Christianity, and the problem of radical leaders is eliminated by a responsible, self-interested and neutral State.

There are those who warn that the communists may yet win, and recent events make me wonder whether America really could start emulating Chinese communism?

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Maybe they are shopping around for a new state religion?
As stated before when Christianity is separated from being a ruling power it does [as practiced presently] now seem less volatile than many other Religions globally. China has known issues with Buddhism and a growing concern in their Western territory with Islamic fundamentalists issues etc.

Just a thought.
Of course those who disagree will bring up centuries old "Inquisitions, Crusades and modern day Quran/Kuran [sp?] Burning morons" as examples of the failings of Christianity etc.

So be it.

When I first read the topic of this thread, I was thinking, No Way! Religion is the reason for division and strife on down through the centuries. The Strong always conquered the weaker nations, but sometimes allowed separate religious beliefs, but more than likely not.www.religioustolerance.org...

As a result of the Ottoman conquest of the Byzantine Empire in 1453 and the fall of Constantinople, the entire orthodox communion of the Balkans and the Near East became suddenly isolated form the west.

There are similarities between the early Judaic religion and Islam, but unlike Judaism however, Islam fully accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah of the Jewish faith. On down through history we see the fragmentation of the Christian religion and it's many off-shoots.

I think unification plays a large part in the success of an empire and it's been a long road. The immigrants that came to America and practicially wiped out the native American population were allowed to conquer and worship how they chose, but every religion in America is an off-shoot of Christianity, so there is no division among religions.

The Chinese saw the emergence of capitalism and a democratic system, but progress and material things can't come about without unification and then law and order. I still could be wrong about the Christian religion being at the heart of the western empire, but our prisons are over-flowing and hospitals full and on the verge of economic collapse. I'll have to think more on this, because I don't see spiritual growth. But, a society can thrive with morals.At least, people aren't hacking each other's heads off. I think we are lucky to be born in America. We have many natural resources and abundance of food.

Oils ain't Oils and Christianity ain't Christianity.

All a person needs to do to be Christian...
...is to believe that Jesus was the Messiah and that he rose from the dead..
...this person has then received the Spirit.

Two or more of these persons is a called a 'church'...
...but what can happen in time is that this Spirit is superceded by formaliism.

What most people criticise about Christianity is this formalism...
...which manifest as essentially human religio/political organizations or denominations...
...whose primary concern is for how everyone else should behave...
...while covering for their own abuse of power...
...these institutions are but the dry skeletons of Christianity...
...that remain after the Spirit has gone out of them.

The Christianity I observe arising in China is young and fresh...
...and will probably remain like that for a long time...
...because the mechanisms are not there for it to die and formalize into a socio/political force...
...so hopefully China will benefit from the freedom and spiritual rest Spirit led Christian's know...
...without falling into the dry forms that have developed in the West.

It's stupid to attribute the West's capitalistic success to Christianity. Capitalism exists for 300 years, Christianity exists for 2000 years. Not only that, but the West is extremely successful the last 50 years where atheism and religions other than Christianity have risen in popularity.