Chinese think tank says Christianity is what made the West successful.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
FAIL, sorry. Slaves in christ is a metaphore, and voluntary, making the slavery definition moot. Christian dont make slaves of others, involuntarily, unlike jews and muslims which attribute affilliation involuntarily by decree of one sort or another. Ya know, just cause the word exists in a phrase, it doesnt make its'eaning the exact same.
There is no word or implication by the founder, ie Jesus, which forces anyone to do anything, and tTHAT"S the operative fact, whether you choose to avoid it or not. You seem to persist in an overly legalistic interpretation of assignement of christianity to the unwilling, totally at odds with written doctrine Gain I ask, If I involve myself in criminality in your name, against your directives does that make you liable anyway?
Really the concepts are applicable and logical in this discoruse of others, wherin one cannot usurp authority of something simply by force of will. A thing is what it is, and anything different is something different. Simple, elegant, and dang irritating to those that find restriction of their own goals in it.
oh and the laws of the hebrews in the old testement are superceded by jesus and as such whatever is in leviticus is of no concern. The god of the old testement cannot be the god of the new, and THAT is obvious to anyone that can compare and contrast.

edit on 8-3-2011 by FriedrichNeecher because: (no reason given)

So your answer to that is basically, "they wanted to be slaves"? Wow, I'm speechless.

Also, you're simply lying that the laws of the hebrews in the old testament were superceded by Jesus as he himself said the laws stand.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

edit on 8-3-2011 by hippomchippo because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-3-2011 by hippomchippo because: (no reason given)

Well if a hierarchy of principle is to be established, the do unto others as you would have done unto you thing would kinda proscribe against the whole forced slavery thing, or maybe you'd interpret it differently. As I said, christianity makes piss poor government and pretty vauge law. I''m a heretic myself, as I cant find any logical relationship between the god of the ot and the NT and therefore, by exclusion assume one of them is either a fraud, or god is pretty juvenile. Take your pick. You want logic, do maths, there is no logic in religion up to this point, other than most religions are just methods of claiming entitlement from others while claiming justification for it. Anyway, it's pointless to discuss opinions of opinions, I just want to provide food for thought.
YMMV

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
Well if a hierarchy of principle is to be established, the do unto others as you would have done unto you thing would kinda proscribe against the whole forced slavery thing, or maybe you'dinterpret it differently. As I said, christianity makes piss poor government and pretty wauge law. I''m a heretic myself, as I cant find any logical relationship between the god of the ot and the NT and therefor, by exclusion assume one of them is either a fraud, or god is pretty juvenile. Take your pick. You want logic, do maths, there is no logic in religion up to this point, other than most religions are methods of claiming entitlement from others.
YMMV

My pick is just that the bible is inconsistent and simply wrong and was written as a means to control others and to gain power, Jesus may have been a great moral teacher, but I do not believe he was the son of God, just a man with a different moral compass to the men of his own time.

So far, my own requests for just a bit of verification have been for naught.
Treating all as oneself seems like a nice gig, though, I mean, if the intent were to all get along and keep the lawyers out of it.

We'll find out when we die,
memento mori....

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
So far, my own requests for just a bit of verification have been for naught.
Treating all as oneself seems like a nice gig, though, I mean, if the intent were to all get along and keep the lawyers out of it.

We'll find out when we die,
memento mori....

Sure, it would be, but based on the laws of the OT, it seems doing unto others as you would like them to do would include stoning each other for things like adultery, just because we personally have a new idea of what we like to think do unto others would mean(meaning we have a modern morality to use that rule by) doesn't mean they did.

...Am I the only one getting the notion that this is just one dude arguing with himself? or are you guys just staring at the thread, slapping "refresh" every ten seconds, and speed-typing like hell?

I'm sorry, but Gods law is dictated by the mentality of man?

Absolutely, I firmly believe that God speaks to people according to their understanding level. One cant explain the attainments of an adult to a child.
God’s law is obviously subject to change over time based on the development of humans.

Though, there are certain cosmic laws that are immutable

Also, I must say "I don't advocate slavery, BUT" has to be the statement of the year, to me, slavery is and always will be wrong.

I agree, but the practical reality is that it was so ingrained in pre-modern society that the it would have been impossible to abolish it all at once, therefore the practical God let it go over time.

God is practical and always has been.

If he [ supposedly having power over all things] wanted to just MAKE HUMANS DO RIGHT, he could have.

But you see, it didn’t go that way.
Indeed, I don’t believe in a fundamentalist, literal sky-god, if that were the case then we wouldn’t have free will.
.

Fascinating Thread! Thank you.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
I wonder if this means China is giving consideration to becoming a Christian nation?

If China did take this course,

I somehow doubt that would happen and, even if they did, choosing a religion for economic reasons is the wrong way to go.

God might get involved!.

If China were suddenly to go Christian because of all the so called economic benifits of Christianity, they would probably be fiercly opposed by their own people who they have trained to hate religion all these years.

All-out spiritual warfare?

Probably even the "real Christians" mentioned by a poster above would recognise the perversion of adopting religion as a commercial venture and would fight against it as well.

With their hearts and minds, in prayer.

Something tells me that the guys that worked on this think tank will end up with the same fate as usually meets other free thinkers in Chinese society:

_________________

Does God not promise prosperity?

I just hope they can dodge bullets as well as that bananna.

Me too!

Absolutely, I firmly believe that God speaks to people according to their understanding level. One cant explain the attainments of an adult to a child.
God’s law is obviously subject to change over time based on the development of humans.

Though, there are certain cosmic laws that are immutable

I'm sorry, but to me this just looks like you trying to shoehorn in your god into the development of modern morality, and it says Gods law is changeable yet we still rely on the morals of a 3000 year old book.

I agree, but the practical reality is that it was so ingrained in pre-modern society that the it would have been impossible to abolish it all at once, therefore the practical God let it go over time.

God is practical and always has been.

If he [ supposedly having power over all things] wanted to just MAKE HUMANS DO RIGHT, he could have.

But you see, it didn’t go that way.
Indeed, I don’t believe in a fundamentalist, literal sky-god, if that were the case then we wouldn’t have free will.
.

You can claim that it would be impossible for God to do things such as control mens minds, but it would be a complete contradiction to everything in the Bible, so if you create your own version of Christianity, sure, go ahead, but it isn't what the original church was.

Hello, thread.

I wanted to tell you, that Capitalism and Democracy come to us from our Roman and Greek cultural forebears.

I wanted to tell you, that pagans believed in an afterlife of reward before the Christians did.

I wanted to tell you, that Christianity is just old-world paganism in new clothes.

I wanted to tell you, that 'Christian civilization' is just Roman civilization stripped of its humanity and rededicated to a sterile paragon of pseudo-Jewish virtues.

I wanted to tell you, that history is dead and so is God.

Seconded.

Could have told any body this myself, without hiring an expensive think tank to come up with this answer! Where the Holy Bible is held above mans pleasures, that country will always be blessed.

As for modern day America.....well, lets just say if it wasn't for the true Christians in America right now, this country would have fallen apart years ago, just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and I'm not just talking about sodomites:

EZEKIEL 16: 49-50 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. "

reply to post by hippomchippo


My friend, I am afraid it is impossible to determine what the "original” church taught.
Your dogma and belief is as good or bad as anyone’s.

Originally posted by teapot

If China were suddenly to go Christian because of all the so called economic benifits of Christianity, they would probably be fiercly opposed by their own people who they have trained to hate religion all these years.

All-out spiritual warfare?

The Vatican recently criticized China for
naming a bishop without the Pope's approval.

www.reuters.com...

From the linked article

"It is known that, in recent days, various bishops were subjected to pressures and restrictions on their freedom of movement, with the aim of forcing them to participate and confer the episcopal ordination," it said.

"Such constraints, carried out by Chinese government and security authorities, constitute a grave violation of freedom of religion and conscience," it said.

The Vatican added it would conduct an investigation into the position of each of the bishops involved.

Catholics in China are divided between one Church that recognizes the pope and his authority to name bishops and a state-backed "patriotic association" which names its own bishops.

reply to post by FortAnthem


This definitely makes sense. Destroy your culture on purpose, and you will be left with nothing to unite people. People will not be able to work together anymore, or trust each other, or even be free without a common culture. Let us not forget that Christianity was originally about individual freedom, democracy, capitalism and the like.

In the future, we are either headed for a Dark Age because science refuses to accept how religion actually works (a dark age in which any kind of productive activity is stifled due to an inability for anyone to be on the same page) or we are going to see the State step in and try to replace religion with its own belief system (even though there should be separation of church and state).

Even right now, I am telling you, there is a tremendous cultural difference between *houses* in my town in the U.S. as far as beliefs go. This could be considered a good thing, however, the beliefs are almost ALL delusional because honestly, that's what a belief system IS. The problem comes when we realize that if every house in the nation is worshiping its own God, there is going to be no unity. I am not talking about slight variations. I am talking about houses I experience with such drastic changes in culture that one almost has to be immersed for half a year to understand their neighbor as if it were a foreign country.

If the above paragraph makes sense to you, then you might understand why I am predicting a dark age or the rise of a State-sponsored religion of sorts. The State-sponsored religion is required to avoid the dark age, and also, it seems suspiciously like the stage was set on purpose because arguments against religion have been consistently off-base, well-timed and executed too perfectly for it to have happened naturally.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


If you don't understand how the values of a society affects it both politically and economically, nothing can open your eyes. I hope that as you age you grow up to understand the significance of values. The wrong values can make a society fail no matter how well planned or armed it is.

I think what this Chinese Think Tank is saying is related to mostly the US and Canada. In particular the Pilgrims who came to the colonies for a better life and to escape State Run Religion by such countries as England. From what I remember the Pilgrims were made up of mostly protestant religious sects like the Quakers and Puritans (not all of them were of course). The philosophy that stemmed from these pilgrims was one of the most important rights in our Constitution - the freedom of religion and separation between church and state.

I just think that these Chinese people are possibly considering that freedom of religion is better than state run atheism, but maybe not since they are controlled by ruthless bureaucrats. Whether people like it or not Christianity (in the west) is part of their ancestry and heritage and no doubt had a role in the successes and failures of western culture. I think we can at least agree that state run atheism is just as bad as state run religion? Like the Catholic Church during the medieval era?

What would these Chinese intellectuals know ?!

Listen to the Atheists. They KNOW everything.

Christianity has only done bad........mmmkay

Christianity is bad, bad, bad, all bad.
Did you know that the bible mentions only evil things ?.

Christianity is holding the world back in a modern dark age.

Just remember the real truth. The TRUTH that YOU are here by chance and for no reason.

The Atheists are so very clever, Christians are not..they are really bad.



By the way I am a proud Christian, so don't listen to me as I am deluded and worship a sky fairy.

Originally posted by inforeal
This Chinese think tank is thinking material success, not any other way, since it is the material success the Chinese envy.

This “Christian” West committed the foulest deeds in history, with slavery of millions of Africans, and the genocide of the Native Americans, then they went into third world countries and enslaved them for centuries through colonialism.

The success of the Christian West is the same success that the Roman Empire had through: PLUNDER, MURDER, and AND RAPE!

Look at the history of the years before the third world, including China, shook off western colonialism.
Still today many of the African countries are still backward because of what the “Christian" west did.

The Christian West united behind the foulest racism and religious bigotry the world has ever seen, that is the reason they have been “successful,” though the West has lost its very soul because the success they have is ALL MATERIAL and has nothing to do with the spiritual!

edit on 8-3-2011 by inforeal because: (no reason given)

What your conveniently leaving out is that the slaves where sold by both their own people and black Arabs(Muslims) to the "westerners". Westerners never really abducted or kidnapped anyone from Africa, they just made the mistake of trading with a savage civilization that still practiced(and to this day still does) slavery. And instead of conquering them off the bat they bought the only thing of worth those primitive civilizations had for sale.

P.S Only the Spanish and European powers by and large built their wealth that way. The most the US did(granted some southerns tried to enslave the "natives" but decided it wasn't worth the effort) was kick the descendants of genocidal migrants(the current "first peoples" butchered the previous "first peoples" down to the last man,woman and child) out of land they weren't even using and had no right to.

Americans mined our own mines, farmed our own farms(exclude the south), worked in our own factories. P.S Africa was tribal mostly. Sure the Europeans didn't do them any favors, but Africa's tribal heritage is probably the number one cause of strife in Africa. Combined tribalism with guns= bad news.

The easiest way to fix Africa is to simply take the gun's, electricity, everything modern away and let them evolve naturally for another 1,000 years.

reply to post by finalword


Really? In the twentieth century alone, atheists killed more people than all the religions of the world combined over all of history. I'm talking about great atheist moral geniuses like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. I'd throw Hitler in too, but he belonged to a secret occult society and actually had a god, satan.

As for showing you God that's simple enough. Look at the nation of Israel. Can you find any other nation that has been reborn after thousands of years of exile? A nation whose religious texts prophesied their rebirth? Did you notice their miraculous military victories, or how they recovered a lost language and now all speak Hebrew?

I guess you weren't paying attention. Nevertheless the Bible is Gods word and it's prophecies are all coming true. The next prophecy to be fulfilled is the one world government under antichrist.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
Well if a hierarchy of principle is to be established, the do unto others as you would have done unto you thing would kinda proscribe against the whole forced slavery thing, or maybe you'dinterpret it differently. As I said, christianity makes piss poor government and pretty wauge law. I''m a heretic myself, as I cant find any logical relationship between the god of the ot and the NT and therefor, by exclusion assume one of them is either a fraud, or god is pretty juvenile. Take your pick. You want logic, do maths, there is no logic in religion up to this point, other than most religions are methods of claiming entitlement from others.
YMMV

My pick is just that the bible is inconsistent and simply wrong and was written as a means to control others and to gain power, Jesus may have been a great moral teacher, but I do not believe he was the son of God, just a man with a different moral compass to the men of his own time.

edit on 8-3-2011 by hippomchippo because: Edited quotes out

Why can't you understand that the bible is a collection of historical documents...
...66 of them in the western canon written by 44 different authors over 3500 years.

It is not a book of instructions but a collection of histories.

They tell a consistent story warts and all about failure and recovery...
...it does not leave out the bad bits like many ancient national histories...
...but describes it as it happened...
...and there were reasons why certain acts were necessary.

The stories in Judges are not lessons on what to do now...
...but so you will ask the question 'why were such attrocities necessary at the time'?
...what opposition were they fighting and why?

Millions of strange little religionists have acted to preserve and transmit these documents...
...for all sorts of personal reasons.

Are we facing some of the same threats to human existence that they faced?
I think we are.

Maybe the first Christian leaders[of the US] held a grudge??

He stated, in reply, that the subject had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading houses and settlements where these tumuli are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that, becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of all the chiefs of all the different nations …was therefore convoked…a resolution that…all their white neighbors …should be exterminated. The most profound secrecy was essential to the execution of such a purpose; and such was the fidelity with which the fatal determination was kept, that the conspiracy was successful, and the device carried completely into effect. Not a soul was left to tell the tale.”(William L. Stone, Life of Joseph Bryant-Thayendanega, p. 484

I guess the Chinese weren't the first ones to see that[success] coming.
Even If this were not true, the Christians of today should not bear the guilt of past.[even with slavery] Why should they be responsible(or labeled) for the sins of their ancestors?