Is the world and perhaps the universe too complex and "mysterious" to truly figure out for humans?

Short answer: NO

We can see the world works. The way it works makes sense to us. If the way it works makes sense to us, then we can figure it out, surely? Of course we can. And we do.

Some people don't understand the world. They think it's a crazy world and makes no sense.

But they are wrong. It only seems like that to them because it doesn't work the way they want it to, or think it ought to. People keep trying to apply their mistaken ideas of how the world works to the real workings of the world, then get confused when they find their theory doesn't fit.

The world is only complex and mysterious and puzzling to us when it doesn't work the way we want it to. As long as we don't have expectations – as long as we don't try to use the words 'ought' and 'should' in relation to reality, but instead work out its rules based on what we observe – the world makes perfect sense.

Sure.

People always want absolute answers. There are many ways to explain things, and an infinite amount of different aspects to life. That's why I think that the TOE is a pretty absurd idea. Surely there are things of such scale in here that we cannot possibly affect them, and thus not to understand them.

So, not in this lifetime, we won't. But humanity is evolving, and maybe some day we'll understand something. That's what keeps us ticking.

It's unrealistic to think a person can know everything that exists, even on a superficial or cursory level. We are destined to inhabit different worlds within the larger space, these have definite parameters and different rules, and we more or less grow into a function of the system which is a function of the larger system. This is the quest for self-actualization, to make a home of our prison.

Also, though, the deeper one's understanding of the complexity and mystery of the universe the more freedom is given one to "travel". Like a shapeshifter, or a porter.

Reality is infinite, and as expansive and structured as the universe is, ultimatley it is a creation within an infinite realm of possiblity.

I was just watching a BBC documentary called "What Happened Before The Big Bang". Awesome doc, top cosmologists and particle physicists explaining their theories. One thing's strange 'tho:

Why can't they cope with infinity? Why is it so hard to except?

Also, it seems like some scientists (who most fundamentaly reject the idea) feel threatened that there could actually be some kind of a higher "power", or rather intelligence, since they cannot (in the end) explain where the universe came from. The theory is, that there was an universe before this one.. so where did that come from?

It's absolutely insane anyway, but doesn't it seem a little bit odd that the universes just came to be one after another? What are the odds of that?

Originally posted by Tryptych
I was just watching a BBC documentary called "What Happened Before The Big Bang". Awesome doc, top cosmologists and particle physicists explaining their theories. One thing's strange 'tho:

Why can't they cope with infinity? Why is it so hard to except?

Also, it seems like some scientists (who most fundamentaly reject the idea) feel threatened that there could actually be some kind of a higher "power", or rather intelligence, since they cannot (in the end) explain where the universe came from. The theory is, that there was an universe before this one.. so where did that come from?

It's absolutely insane anyway, but doesn't it seem a little bit odd that the universes just came to be one after another? What are the odds of that?

scientists dont feel threatened by the thought of a higher power... they laugh at it. because there is no proof of a higher power.

infinity is not realistically possible, it is a concept used for math. its far better to say i dont know and keep looking for the answer, than to say "magik man did it, lets go to bed.'

NO ONE says there was a universe before this one, at least no credible or well known scientists, because there's no proof, you're thinking of alternate universes, other universes, in other realities, not ours. and we dont even know if they exists.

reply to post by vjr1113


You seem pretty sure about yourself..

Does consciousness have a limit? And where do all the forms and "designs" come from? And if the universe is finite, are there also a finite amount of parallel dimensions etc?

To me, that sounds absurd.

Just read my signature line. I think that will answer your question.

Originally posted by Tryptych
reply to post by vjr1113

 

You seem pretty sure about yourself..

Does consciousness have a limit? And where do all the forms and "designs" come from? And if the universe is finite, are there also a finite amount of parallel dimensions etc?

To me, that sounds absurd.

what is consciousness, by your definition?

all forms and designs are random, except that which is created by something formed by our universe. example a sculptor or a supernova.

the universe is not finite, i have not said that. i said infinite doesnt exists in reality. it is a concept. believe it or not someday our universe will expand so much it will die.

we dont even know if there is any other universe but ours. this is just a theory.

reply to post by vjr1113


That's a good question.

We don't understand consciousness, as we don't understand the universe either. As far as I've understood, the current quantum theories point strongly towards the idea that there really are parallel (or other) dimensions.

I think that can always understand more and more about the universe, but we'll probably never understand everything, because that would mean the end of human intellectual/psychic develpment. And I don't see that happening any time soon. I actually see that as a part of human arrogance and as a need to completely control the environment. The universe has been here for (apparently) 13.75 billion years.

Surely math can explain things by numbers, but we still need a interpreter that does the math.

This is of course also a theory (and a highly specualtive and a layman one)

I think I twisted my poor little brain, must get some sleep..

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by sphinx551
Like, there are so many theories going around about the world and the universe. Like how the world works, the paradigms of the world, who "controls" the world, etc... How do to discern the "truth" from all of that? Also, same for the universe. What if all or any of the theories generally accepted about the world and the universe are wrong? Basically, is life too complex to truly figure out without hesitation?

edit on 7-3-2011 by sphinx551 because: (no reason given)

Sounds to me like you figured it out buddy.

Nice paradox that is eh?

Hmmmm.... Universe/s. Only the creator God knows everything
while humans will always be on a learning curve.

reply to post by Tryptych

Also, it seems like some scientists (who most fundamentaly reject the idea) feel threatened that there could actually be some kind of a higher "power", or rather intelligence, since they cannot (in the end) explain where the universe came from. The theory is, that there was an universe before this one.. so where did that come from?

No, that's just you projecting your antipathy towards science.

The scientific worldview is derived from observing nature. There are no infinite quantities in nature--none that are known to us anyway. It's just possible that the universe as a whole may be infinite, but it's not very likely. Therefore scientists tend to be sceptical about infinity.

Besides, logic supports observation. It is impossible to say anything about infinity. You can't define its properties or deduce any proposition from it. In other words, infinity is non-logical. This suggests strongly that it is nothing but an intellectual and mathematical fiction.

Originally posted by Astyanax

No, that's just you projecting your antipathy towards science.

Yawn..

I didn't say that I don't believe in science. Surely it's the way to truly understand the universe. I remember some scientist saying that the existence is like plate on a needle tip. Everything is that well organized. Everything has an order. Change one thing and everything collapses. But I guess you already knew that.

It interesting that some scientists can't get past the idea that "god" is some dude on a cloud, something personal, something physical. I'm not saying if it/he/she/whatever is real or not, just talking about the concept.

Oh yeah, maybe infinity can be understood only as an abstractation. Maybe it's math, but it's still there.

Originally posted by Astyanax
There are no infinite quantities in nature--none that are known to us anyway.

......surely there is an infinitive amount of "what"'s, "where"'s, "how"'s, "who"'s, "when"'s and of course "why"'s.........



Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

......surely there is an infinitive amount of "what"'s, "where"'s, "how"'s, "who"'s, "when"'s and of course "why"'s....

What a fearsome thought. How would we ever know anything, if the compass of what we did not know were infinite? We should never make any progress at understanding the mysteries of the universe.

Fortunately the situation is not so dire. Our little lives may not be rounded in a mere sleep as Puck’s and Miranda’s were, but they are brief and finite enough; therefore the number of questions each of us may ask in a lifetime is also finite.

And though we humans are many, yet we are finite in our numbers.

Thus the number of questions posed the universe by humanity is finite.

Indeed, I believe it is very small. We tend to ask the same questions over and over again, finding different answers to them as time goes on.

*

reply to post by Tryptych

It interesting that some scientists can't get past the idea that "god" is some dude on a cloud, something personal, something physical.

How did you come to this slanderous conclusion? Clearly not by talking to any scientists.

Scientists are comfortable with abstract intellectual concepts, because you cannot do science without them. The concept of a non-physical deity is well within their range. Whether they choose to believe in God or not, their conceptions of the divine are far from primitive.

You are upholding a false conclusion for no better reason than to make yourself feel superior to others.

reply to post by Astyanax




Of course you are right and I was just being silly but if the number of questions is finite than the answer to the OP's question, in theory, have to be "no, the world and the univers are not too complex and mysterious to truly figure out for humans"? .

Oh....you already said that.

I agree with your first post and that it is the way our expectations do not line up with the actual way things work that is making us believe it;s too complex to ever figure out and create the concept of infinity. I suspect it's our enormous ego covering it's own butt that is producing this notion but than.....

isn't the ego's capacity of making up excuses infinite?? I know our limited lifespan dictates that our conscience,self aware mind is limited in the amount of questions it can ask but wouldn't it's capacity be infinite?

I'm not making sense again, am I??

Peace

reply to post by sphinx551


Hey sphinx551, good question. There are a plethora of "theories" going around the world, yes. You'll never truly know whether one is true or not, as a matter of fact, we don't even understand what "truth" is. There's a line between subjective and objective which is so fine that most of us can't identify what is definite fact and what isn't. We've (the human race) have only created the false difference between true and false to feel safe here - all truth is relative to another "truth", which comes from another "truth", which comes from another "truth [...] and when you see the source of all these "truths", you realize it was just somebody's shot, a long long time ago, at explaining something, just an idea, just a "what if". There are no objective bases to any truth.

What if, from the day of your birth, you've been subconsciously learning through all of the subliminal messages? For this reason, there are so many things a human will be afraid to question, maybe even feel stupid asking. Are you even real? Is all this around you real?

You haven't been in outer space, so how do you know it even exists? What if this planet is all there is - it's certainly the only thing you can experience for the moment. Does it make you feel claustrophobic, therefore uncomfortable, therefore you quickly dispose the idea?

But do the senses actually prove reality? By touching, seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, do you feel safe in this reality?

Like Morpheus said in The Matrix: "If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."

But this sort of thinking gets you nowhere! You can sit there and question all day and you'll never know the truth. So we just stay one level above the source of all these "truths", and work from that point on...

reply to post by operation mindcrime

isn't the ego's capacity of making up excuses infinite??

It does seem like that at times.

But consider that every thought consists of a sequence of discrete neurological events. Each such sequence is a specific, perhaps unique combination of events. There are perhaps trillions of such possible combinations, but not an infinite number of them. No finite quantity multiplied by another finite quantity ever yields a value of infinity. The human capacity for self-deception is more than sufficient for its assigned task, it is not strictly infinite.

How can we say with such confidence that there are no infinite quantities in nature? It is because the world is made up of discrete components. As Bob Dylan put it, every hair is numbered like every grain of sand. Continuity is a kind of illusion. Infinity can only be a mathematical fiction because reality is 'digital'.

It is well known, especially among the mystery-lovers who comprise the bulk of ATS members, that the boundary of a Mandelbrot set is of infinite length. As you 'zoom into' the fractal figure, it reveals more and more convoluted detail. Because of this you can never measure or calculate the length of this boundary and come up with a finite value. See how it works here.

We see apparent fractals in the real world, too. For example, consider the map of a coastline, which shows ever more detail as the scale zooms in. However, the difference between a physical coastline and the boundary line of a Mandelbrot set is that the latter is imagined to be made up of a set of points of zero dimension, whereas the boundary of a physical coastline is made up of grains of sand of finite size. Since it is made up of dimensionless points, you can zoom in on a Mandelbrot figure for ever; but you can't do that with a real coastline. At some point you will reach a limit, which is set by the size of its discrete material components.

The same is true if we look beyond the molecular level. Subatomic particles occupy only permitted energy states; they make 'quantum jumps' from one state to another without passing through any of the state-values in between. There is no continuity at all on the quantum level; continuity in nature appears to be an observer effect, or a phenomenon of decoherence.

So much for infinity on the microscale. On the macroscale, the universe originated in a dimensionless singularity a finite length of time ago. Within a singularity, the concept of infinity does make sense; every massive singularity is infinitely dense. But as soon as the Universal Singularity acquired physical dimensions, it ceased to have any infinite properties. Unless, of course, it expanded at infinite velocity to occupy an infinite volume. We have absolutely no evidence that such a thing happened, and many good reasons to doubt that it did.

Black holes contain singularities, and every such singularity also has infinite density. The trouble is, such a singularity is effectively outside reality. We can never observe a naked singularity, for as soon as it acquires an infinite measurement, it removes itself from the universe. In its place we see the event horizon of a black hole: an object of finite size, mass and density, with finite, calculable effects on the matter and energy surrounding it.

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


Hey passenger. Niiiiiice thought. We are relative to the absolute not lost but wandering and wondering in its marvel.