Lack of feminine characteristics...

reply to post by Brown Bear

In general, American women have become the dregs of womanhood, which is unfortunate because as little as 40 years ago they were considered the ‘top of the line’ and it was pleasure to be around them because of the image of beauty and allure that women around the world aspired toward.

Though i agree with some of your points, mainly that to much feminism is not a good thing, and that you cant trade the paradigm of family for a carer or whatever else and not have consequences, infact you cant change anything without there being some consequences, because everything is the way it is, for a reason. But the rest like the above quote are just mute and plain pulled out of your ass, and there is so much overgeneralizing in your post even i got to say, WTF are you smoking.

reply to post by ag893


I am soooo glad you are going outside of the US... Bless you for doing us a favor.

Originally posted by soficrow

All I can say is - don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Whatever it's called, the women's movement is important. Just because TPTB try and takeover everything and everyone that might lend them credibility and power doesn't mean the movement has no merit at its core.

Well, I agree with this line of thought. I'm not at all okay with women not being given equal rights. They should be given the right to vote, and to choose what they think is best for their lives.... but I just don't think that's what's behind the "feminist" movement... at least not now.

btw - I don't agree with much you have to say. Love you anyway.

Perfectly fine, and I love you, too!

BTW, I'm still up for any good book suggestions you have that may help me to break through my current bonds of ignorance. I don't doubt that in some past societies, the gender roles were meshed in. The questions I have are: WHY, and WAS IT BEST?! Perhaps, given whatever circumstances existed, it was best at the time. Now a days... I just don't see it.

I'm not saying that ALL women should stay at home, or that ALL men are superior on whatever task, or what have you. I'm saying it seems incredibly obvious that the AVERAGE male and female have certain inherent genetic propensities, and these are usually manifest as the male best taking the role of provider and protector, and the female best taking the role as a compassionate nurturer.

Does this mean either is superior to the other?! NO!! It means our species seems to have evolved to specialize us via sexes roles. It's just more efficient and productive.

If some women happen to be talented towards sciences, mathematics, ...or being a CEO, let her do it! Freaking encourage her. If it's what's best, OKAY!! My mom is an executive vp, so I can see this being alright no problem. I just think it's foolish to try and act as equals by trying to do everything. It doesn't make any sense! Look outside of male/female, and what's most efficient/best for ... let's just say the family structure to start with. I'm sure you can find exceptions, and I'm sure nobody fully fit's into any generalization, but that's not the point.

Originally posted by irsuccubus
My philosophy...be useful. Simple as that. Be effective and be useful and choose a life other than that of being an ornament. If that means being a mom...do it. If that means driving 18 wheelers...go for it! Women need to approach life as you would a banquet and not allow themselves to get put in a place where they cannot continue to grow as the wonderful creatures they are.

And men....men are amazing creatures that are full of fascination for me and many women, which is why they do so much to get their hands on one. No one should be dominating anyone unless theres latex involved and thats your kink. We all need each other. That being said...RESPECT MA AUTHORITAH!!

Love your post and insight. Sometimes a frustrated "snark & snipe" can bring on the best response.

Speaking of 18 wheelers - - my older daughter drives one of those humongous dump trucks in a gold mine (mom of 17 year old grandson).

My younger daughter - mom of granddaughter - works in Hollywood behind the scenes. So - yeah we are aware of many pitfalls. We "parent". We tell her to enjoy each year. When you are 10 - you are 10. When you are 11 - you are 11. Tough Love ahead. She is absolutely stunning. She looks like an exotic Dakota Fanning - - with Greek/Spanish heritage - - and will probably reach 5' 10" in height.

We focus on: Intelligence - quality - and inner beauty.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by soficrow
I have NO DOUBT that TPTB hijacked, appropriated and subverted the women's movement.

Oh - would you say they are Opportunists?

Yep. And that's exactly what I did say.

No one "created" the women's independence movement.

Well, there were some pretty committed women who put a lot on the line every so often. Suffragettes like Millicent Fawcett, Emmeline Pankhurst and Annie Kenney come to mind, along with women like Nellie McClung. They all made real sacrifices for which we all should be grateful - we are no longer property, to be owned by only men, and we have the right to vote and run for office, to take part in our own government. Rather large goals and significant accomplishments, methinks.

Of course even early on the "movement" was manipulated. Certain corporate big boyz supported /manipulated the Suffragettes into pushing the Temperance Movement - which opened the market for the cannabis industry, and coc aine in Coca Cola - then the manipulation pendulum swung back the other way: alcohol became legal again, grass was illegal and coc aine got "controlled." ...It's all about money, and any "movement" with the power to influence any constituency will attract money-hungry power-mongers.

It is a progression movement just like anything else.

True - and it's also true that any "movement" with the power to influence any constituency will attract manipulators and social engineers, and be subject to manipulation and social engineering strategies.

Nothing stands still.

Right again.

Originally posted by soficrow
Well, there were some pretty committed women who put a lot on the line every so often. Suffragettes like Millicent Fawcett, Emmeline Pankhurst and Annie Kenney come to mind,

Oh yeah - - I know.

My gramma chained herself to some political/government building. I'm just not sure which one.

There was a reason I put "create" in quotes. Didn't mean to diminish the accomplishments and dedication of early dedicated women of independence.

reply to post by Annee


I got one of those. A bird boned beauty that will be tall like her dad. All big eyes and delicate tendencies. And yet her favorite things are martial arts and scary movies. And I didnt cultivate that...I just left her free to choose her own fate. Women ....like flowers, bloom in all sorts of ways and while we could sit here and debate the differences between men and women and why they are this and that....the bottom line is that we are all human. We all have needs and desires and while there are many things inherent to our respective genders...its all the same set of switches with the only difference being in the wiring. And in knowing that perhaps we can learn to give eachother a bit more credit. It isnt a Mars Vs. Venus thing. Thats retarded, lol. Women need to understand that men..well...are gonna be men and while they might go along with things, chances are most probably want to club you over the head and throw you over their shoulder...this scenario probably playing itself out in the deepest part of the subconscious. And men need to see that women have evolved ALONGSIDE them and not behind them. Its alright to be who you are because thats your best chance for happiness. Its not up to either gender to make the rules for the other. Just be prepared to compromise. And that goes for both sides.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Brown Bear

 

In general, American women have become the dregs of womanhood, which is unfortunate because as little as 40 years ago they were considered the ‘top of the line’ and it was pleasure to be around them because of the image of beauty and allure that women around the world aspired toward.

Though i agree with some of your points, mainly that to much feminism is not a good thing, and that you cant trade the paradigm of family for a carer or whatever else and not have consequences, infact you cant change anything without there being some consequences, because everything is the way it is, for a reason. But the rest like the above quote are just mute and plain pulled out of your ass, and there is so much overgeneralizing in your post even i got to say, WTF are you smoking.

Hmmmm. I presume you're referring to my opinion on page 14?

I just recently returned to the USA and after having been away trekking for many years and coming back is a rude awakening due to many trends unseen to the people like you (for example) who are enmeshed in them. You would do well, and advance toward consciousness, if you struggled to understand the root of the comments you reject since apparently you accept some parts. Believe me, the Truth hurts a Social Scientist like me as much as it does someone like you.

Deny ignorance (and conditioning). Disbelief or acceptance of illusion and delusion doesn't change reality. As for your other comment: only the best, Buddy, only the best.

Just curious, did you actually realize this or did you just paraphrase pages 11-12 of the March 14, 2011 Issue of Newsweek? The author of the article is Kathleen Parker. It just sounds like you wrote down the same thing she said as If it was your own expirience.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


You're telling me people have sex, end up with babies and that's when the nurturing instinct kicks in? I argue otherwise, and NOT JUST based upon personal experience. And the desire to love and care for them goes beyond the postpartum oxytocin induced bonding hormone surge. And my choice as to how many kids I have is based upon logic NOT desire.

I absolutely believe there is a built in design to desire children in women yet conditions in individual lives mute or turn up the inherent trait. Just as the many babies that died long ago, the horrible reality conditioned people to remain detached. This doesn't mean that the natural instinct to desire family and attach weren't there. The conditions may have been harsher then, but the fact is now with ideal conditions we've made a mess of what could be healthy foundations BY playing into the "need" to be an independent woman, and rather than taking the oppression of men and balancing that out, women have rather taken it to the opposite extreme. Instead of holding fast in and demanding respect and equality in the roles we are naturally adept to, women have instead abandoned them to get as far away from the association to the oppression. Being a housewife and a mother is not a oppressed state. It is the relationships and rights that surround them, and the way women are viewed,

And where you get the idea that men don't have the inherent desire to raise and stick with a family is beyond me. I see plenty of that desire in men who've evolved and balanced the way that women should as well to form a cohesive, fulfilling and DESIRED family life.

To me it's all an apparent imbalance of thinking one extreme holds the key when true balance takes the coming together of both sides. The world is a mess for many reasons, but one includes children being raised without the fulfillment of a mother's nurturing and or without the strength of a father's teaching AND vice versa. Women will grow up thinking men are detached a-holes and go on to marry one because that's how their father was. It takes a balance of both from BOTH parents to form a emotionally balanced individual. So I don't believe it's just a circumstantial free for all.

And if women's lib was what it was "supposed" to be, then why the hell do we have such a pervasive problem with oversexed, slutty, misogynistic, crap all over t.v. and other media. We're confused when times are bad and confused when times are good and still haven't figured out who we are.

When I was but a wee lass, my mother once said to me, "I go to work and work and I come home and work". This was circa late 60s. My parents were still married (unhappily). My mother started going to school for Nursing in the early 60s because somehow, she could see as a stay-at-home Mother, that things might not end well, what with all of the drinking, philandering and spousal abuse from my Father. Eventually he left - as a result no less, of my much older siblings catching him with another woman. Of couse, Mother had to work, but she had a marketable skill by then. When she came home there were other things to do, so she did not get to bed until quite late at night. By the way, Dad was having a grand old time running the streets with various Ladies and going back and forth to Jamaica.
That little experience taught me a few things:
I did not want my Mother's life and I told her so...I wanted to live like my Father and have a grand old time doing what I chose to with this ONE LIFE that I have. I wanted to take part in all of the opportunities that most of the World's women did not have. I wanted to have my OWN money and not have to beg or manipulate some guy to give me a few bucks because I had no means of support, save him - I watched my Mother do that in my very early years and it was dehumanizing.
At 16 years old I mentally catapulted myself ten years into the future and tried to magine the husband, the kids, the house, cars, the mortgage and I immediately became depressed, lol.
At that moment I decided that I would never have children - they're alright but through no fault of their own they can complicate life beyond measure (on top of being noisy, expensive and somewhat destructive).
I have never regretted my decision '
Not only that, but I had the presence of mind back then to look at my parents' married friends, and my relatives and could plainly see that many of these Women were absolutely miserable although some tried to keep up a good front.
Ladies and Gentlemen - you may not realize this, but your children are WATCHING you.
I married but discovered that for some odd reason, just that little piece of paper for some reason seemed to infer ownership of me by my husband...well, so much for that, lol
Sure I can be aggressive/assertive/arrogant at times but one (regardless of gender) has to be that way to get what is needed in life - competitiveness is everywhere.
Sweetness and emotion is reserved for the times when it is appropriate - any other time it is perceived as a weakness, especially by Men.
When the Sexual Revolution happened, it not only freed Women( and it did) it freed men as well.
Some Men are now wondering what their roles are now that Women are able to make their own money have thier own home and for all intents and purposes have their own families without them(except for the sperm contribution, lol).
It is like my Grandmother used to say , "If you want to feel needed, make yourself useful".

For the Women who wish to whine about how the Sexual Revolution goofed up their chances to be taken care of by a Man..it didn't goof your chances up, honey. There are still Men out there who are willing to do that, but you HAD BETTER be WILLING to put up with WHATEVER foolishness they dish out should you choose not to have a fall-back position (marketable skills, etc.).

For the Men who wish to have a Woman that they can subjugate/dehumanize/ treat as mere chattel..well, there are those out there, too-but you had better be WILLING to wade through any manipulations/head games/schemes/setups/trick bags that she will put you in.
I hope you both find each other I would think that the best location for the above types would be anywhere in the Middle East and some places in Asia - I hear that's the way they roll....

As for me, I am alone, childless and loving it - I have a nice fellow who stops by now and again when either of us has needs to take care of or for conversation about each other's lives. He has his home/money/life and I have mine, and that's the way we like it. I can take a vacation or leave the dishes in the sink overnight or read without ten thousand interruptions.. My days are quiet, unfettered and unfooled with. If you think that is selfish..well, it is, I suppose. but I watched for many years what happens (and it ain't good) when a Woman is self-less.
I am not obligated to marry or have kids.
When I was born I made no promises to anyone, written or oral.
Not everyone should be married.
Not everyone should have children (any State's DCFS will tell you that).
The worst relationship in the World is two people who NEED each other.
If you would like to revert to the 1500's that's cool but for goodness sake's please go to another country where that idiocy is permitted and allow the rest of us to evolve

Peace Out

reply to post by PaganArchangel


Not everyone has had messed up parental relationships, and therefore constructed their view of family differently and were and are able to go on to have happy functioning families that include mothering and being a housewife. They had a good example before them of what a healthy equal functioning relationship should be and set out to find just that. There are women who actually DO find such a thing called domestic bliss, and find it fulfilling and to them a true expression of their femininity and womanhood, and also wouldn't have it any other way.

reply to post by kalamatas


That's cool, but for those of us for which marriage and children seem like drudgery, there is also bliss in singlehood and childlessness, whether one comes from a dysfunctional family or not..just sayin'. I don't live in a country that obligates me to marriage and constant Motherhood, and I am thankful for this.
I was born in the right place

Communism was at the root of feminism. Betty Friedan, who wrote The Feminine Mystique, was involved with communists.
elliotlakenews.wordpress.com...


Marxist communism in the feminist movement: www.savethemales.ca...\\

More Marxist feminism www.tldm.org...

in the Party's own words and admission www.fifthinternational.org...

and thats only 4 out of the 1,850,000 Google hits on my search

Originally posted by PaganArchangel
reply to post by kalamatas

 

That's cool, but for those of us for which marriage and children seem like drudgery, there is also bliss in singlehood and childlessness, whether one comes from a dysfunctional family or not..just sayin'. I don't live in a country that obligates me to marriage and constant Motherhood, and I am thankful for this.
I was born in the right place

and there it is...the other side of the coin. I love your post because it shows that there are people who can live perfectly fulfilling lives without cashing in on their ovaries, lol. And I say that with fun because I am a mom and I love my life but I am no romantic. Its hard work and often the rewards dont always match the effort put in. But as I said....would not trade it for the world. I am sort of the opposite. I was raised by single by choice mom and decided to go against the grain and nest. All my life I had been groomed to be the independent sort but I knew early on what I wanted. We have to go where our hearts lead us and should be allowed to do so without fear of being made to feel guilty about our choices.

Originally posted by polarwarrior
reply to post by Yeah-Alright

 

I know what you mean. But I have also noticed physical changes, and not just with women becoming more butch but also men becoming more feminine. I think this may be because of the large variety of gender bender chemicals found in western foods especially in places like America, western countries that don't have so much of these chemical (like certain parts of Europe) don't seem to have as much problems.

I'm wondering if these chemicals could also be causing psychological changes as well as just the physical. And if these chemical effects, combined with the societal factors (such as feminist movements and metro-sexual new age guy etc. etc.) is exacerbating the changes.

Personally im all for embracing the differences/opposites of the sexes, rather than merging them into a common middle ground all just for the sake of equality. But, in general I think we should always cherish diversity. This doesn't mean I condone any oppression, but rather that we should be careful not to destroy the sexualities just because we cant get them to effectively complement each other in synthesis of teamwork.

edit on 7-3-2011 by polarwarrior because: (no reason given)

I knew it! Chemicals in processed food do have a great influence on the people that it's consumed by. It may also be the root to that "Why do I have hair right there" issue a lot of women get. I'm getting back to organics!

What amazes me is all of the unspoken rules regarding what Femininity and Masculinity should be all about. If a woman's Femininity is measured by her having having a marriage and children..well, what about the ones that are unable to have kids and those who do not wish to marry? Have they lost their Femininity? No, they have not.
Who made up these (mostly unspoken) dumb rules anyway?
Whether married or no, childless or not, alone or spoken for, I was born Female, am Female and will continue to be so for the rest of my life and the only ones capable of divesting me of this would be my Creators. I define who I am and no one else.
Don't let what others choose to do with their lives bug the crap out of you. they are not obligated to live their lives as you see fit and visa versa. Sure, I've caught flak for not wishing to marry again or not having children; ironically it was mainly by Women who were in relationships that were not the best and they had kids to boot. Out of the Women that were truly happily married with kids (and there were much, much fewer of them) , I heard not one peep. Their view was "hey, it's your life to live as you wish"
Who knows? One of these days there may be a Man that I would like to so be with that my wishing to be with him will supercede my desire to be on my own.
But he's going to have to get up pretty early in the morning for that one, lol
Marriage is a partnership in VERY rare cases (I have seen only a couple like this in 50 years of life).
It's fantastic when it is a true partnership but it is a drag otherwise..power struggles galore - who needs it?
Just my opinion, lol

Originally posted by unityemissions

Originally posted by soficrow

...Whatever it's called, the women's movement is important. Just because TPTB try and takeover everything and everyone that might lend them credibility and power doesn't mean the movement has no merit at its core.

Well, I agree with this line of thought. I'm not at all okay with women not being given equal rights. They should be given the right to vote, and to choose what they think is best for their lives....

Glad to hear it.

but I just don't think that's what's behind the "feminist" movement... at least not now.

Little in this world is "pure" - and what is becomes quickly contaminated. Doesn't change the core, or the sincerity of those who are truly trying.

The same players have used the same strategies for thousands of years to counteract every attempt every population has made to gain its freedom - the Christian church, the party system and democracy, the labor movement, women's movement, every revolution and every movement that speaks to human freedom.

Please, be clear - it's not the women's movement per se that you question; it's the contamination, manipulation and countermeasures imposed by TPTB, masquerading as the genuine article.

...And as far as the "destabilization" strategy goes - you and others like you are playing into the counterpoint, being manipulated right along with the ones you're pointing at. Think about it. It serves TPTB's agenda VERY well to have people totally distracted with trivia, angry about nothing - fighting with one another over what? sexual roles and orientation? race? who's on the lowest rung of the ladder versus the second lowest? ...and while the fools quibble over the kibble, the Big Boyz go along their merry way raping communities of their water, countries of their oil and timber, destroying the planet and the people on it.

The problem is NOT with gender roles - the crisis is what's going on behind your back while you point fingers and bicker over crumbs.

We are in this together. We each have unique strengths and weaknesses, and something special to offer. TPTB do not want us to discover these truths, so they set us at each other's throats over anything that can be manipulated to serve their purposes.

Fight the machine, not the men and women getting crushed under the wheels.

I'm still up for any good book suggestions you have that may help me to break through my current bonds of ignorance.

Read/scan all the posts made by thoughtsfull, irsuccubus and Illusionsaregrander - there's real gold there - then grab a few terms to Google. You'll be fine.

I don't doubt that in some past societies, the gender roles were meshed in.

There were jobs to be done, and ideally, whomever was best suited to the job at hand took responsibility. No muss, no fuss, no ego. And no super-imposed notions of innate superiority or hierarchy.

The questions I have are: WHY, and WAS IT BEST?! Perhaps, given whatever circumstances existed, it was best at the time. Now a days... I just don't see it.

Hierarchies exist because they're easy to manipulate, not because they work. The whole leader-follower rap is just PR - a sound bite designed to market a truly bad idea.

You said earlier that you think women should be "given" [sic] the right to "choose what they think is best for their lives." …Just follow that thought to ALL its implications and logical conclusions.

I'm saying it seems incredibly obvious that the AVERAGE male and female have certain inherent genetic propensities, and these are usually manifest as the male best taking the role of provider and protector, and the female best taking the role as a compassionate nurturer.

"Oh, REALLY!" she bristled. "And where were YOU indoctrinated?"

…We're well past the time when the man had to protect his family from the monsters that came in the night. In any event, believe me, our grandmothers knew how to protect themselves; then as now, the designated "protector" was not always there when he was needed. So women do have diverse survival skills and abilities - and always have had. The ones that didn't died before the bloodline got off the ground.

This notion of men being the provider and protector is relatively new, and imposed by the manipulators - designed to define mens' place according to the current needs of "the economy" and corporate industry, keep men serving the corporate agenda (NOT to benefit their families or themselves as individuals) - and diminish everyone in the process, male and female. …Real men and women work together - always have, always will. Which is a big problem for the corporate industrial economy.

Corporate industry needs employees to commit all their energy, time, consciousness and lives solely to the "job." But if you spend all your energy and productive time working, then someone else has to prepare your food, do your laundry, clean your house, massage your back, help you release your tension, and etc..

Kings, CEO's and VP's are well-paid for their "dedication" - they can afford servants, the best chefs and hookers, masseurs and personal trainers. The profits are made on the backs of the workers. Technicians, managers, supervisors and laborers need servants too, but they'll never be paid enough to hire them - even though the corporate industrial economy requires the same time commitment from lower level employees as it does of the executive echelons.

What to do?

Enter the Provider Myth and the "family man" - a truly ingenious marketing strategy - designed to justify exploitive live-in support services for exploited male employees who aren't paid enough to purchase needed services retail. The way it's structured, the male, his wife, home and family ALL support and serve the corporate industrial economy first, and boost the profit line big time. The guy marries his job; the wife supports his job; the profits go to the corporation and everybody thinks it's "natural." Why? Because that's what they've been told.

The nuclear family, single family dwellings, stay-at-home-all-alone moms, dad the provider working for the machine - none of it's "natural." It's downright absolutely and extremely unhealthy: isolationist, exploitive, abusive. And the Provider Myth is pure bull puckey - but you guys buy it hook line and sinker.

The so-called "natural" gender roles you're touting are unnaturally unmitigated crap. Those gender roles were conceptualized, designed, marketed and forced upon you to serve the needs of the corporate industrial economy. Nothing natural about it.

You've been played.

reply to post by thoughtsfull

reply to post by irsuccubus

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thank you all very very much for your informed and thoughtful posts. It is truly a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

~ sofi

Urghhhh, this is getting to be a bit annoying.

Being feminine or masculine has nothing to do with much of anything besides one's inherent hormonal propensities.

I don't give a fkkk what society or our culture demands... if it seems best I will adopt it, if not .... fkkk it.

Being feminine basically means having a bit more estrogen pumping through your blood than testosterone, and vice versa. These hormones are mostly what gives us our inherent feminine/masculine qualities, it seems. Everything else doesn't really matter to me.

If a guy is acting like a girl, I may just call him a pussy or girly. What of it?! If he's got more estrogen pumping through him, so be it. Same for a woman. If I see a woman acting all manly, I may call her out. It probably just means she's got a bit more testosterone pumping through her than average. What of it?!

Nothing "wrong" with how you are inherently, I just think it foolish for people to change their inherent ways because they are deceived. Deceived into thinking, first off... that they aren't equals. Secondly, that they should insanely strive to prove their selves, by attempting to (it seems) act superior.


@ sofi

LOL

That is all....

Actually, no it isn't... I'll make it super easy on you.

Suppose you and I have the same muscle definition, and body weight.

We both do 1,000 pushups over a given period of time.

Who will have bigger biceps/triceps???

On average, the male.... it's INHERENTLY built into us, LOL....therefore...we are the inherent PROTECTORS.....

sorry, but that's a huge DUH!!!

reply to post by soficrow


We've been played, and how!
What lies behind us and what lies in front of us is nothing compared to what lies right to our faces.
I agree that the old "divide and conquer" strategy is used over and over to keep people fighting with each other over BS so that they don't see what is really going on.
Just what the hell is wrong with Humankind??? O.O
We've got to be the most dysfunctional Species in the Universe...no wonder the E.Ts won't visit, lol