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Women and Survival.

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posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:06 PM

What a huge difference culture makes to your worldview.

The kind of women I grew up with and around, and I'm not just referring to the Apache ones, would be baffled by some of the comments in this thread, saddened, and probably more than a little pissed.

For instance, the woman who taught me to use tobacco moistened with saliva to draw insect poisons was Callie, a tough white woman friend of my Grandma's with three or four kids by different fathers. NO one called her immoral or anything bad: everyone was extremely unfailingly polite to her. It was't her looks, she was a rather dumpy woman dressed in boots, jeans and a plaid shirt most often. However, she customarily wore a belt knife and pistol, was known to have a boot knife, and usually had her Winchester or shotgun in her hand or handy. She herself was honest, tough, and polite, worked hard, didn't gossip that I knew of and was a fair hunter. She tolerated zero BS from anyone. If the SHTF when she was around, she'd be the one protecting the city boys, and God help any would-be rapists.

Grandma was so tough that the local cops would drive her home if she got too far into her cups at the Bluebonnet rather than confront her. Different times. She was highly respected by the town that grew up around her. She taught me the old ways and gave me examples of clear logical reasoning that have guided me throughout my life.

My own mother raced stock cars, ran bars, bands, hung out with a lot of famous CW stars like Hank Williams and Lefty Frizzell ( I have a song they co-wrote at an airport once, signed by Lefty and all the band), shot a guy once who tried to rape her, broke a friend out of jail. She was tough, too...I miss her every single moment of every day and take joy in remembering her life.

I guess my point is that I was taught that women are naturally tough, intelligent, capable, and indepedent. I expect those qualities in women. When the STHTF I've made it abundantly clear to the women I know that I will expect them clear-headed, capable, and willing to shoulder whatever burdens are required by the situation without whining or complaining. Healthy bitching is okay, as long as it elicits a laugh. I also expect them to contribute ideas and insights I would miss because of my maleness.

I've trained my granddaughter to look at the land as I was taught. She knows how not to be lost and knows the difference between not knowing precisely where you are and being lost. She can handle weapons and tools passably well, and can think through problems and anticipate several outcomes. She knows how to start a fire, how to cook, how to garden, and how to fish. She'll be fifteen this year, and is growing into a worthy woman.

These are the sorts of women I was told of growing up:


Gouyen, meaning "Wise Woman," was born into Chief Victorio's Warm Springs Apache band around 1880. One day, while the group was resting at Tres Castillos, New Mexico, it was attacked by Mexicans. When the offensive was over, seventy-eight Apaches had been murdered and only seventeen had escaped, including Gouyen and her young son, Kaywaykla. Her baby daughter, however, was murdered and shortly afterwards her husband was killed in a Comanche raid while visiting the Mescalero Apaches.

A legendary tale is told about the revenge of Gouyen. One night following her husband's death, she put on her buckskin puberty ceremony dress and left the camp carrying a water jug, dried meat, and a bone awl and sinew for repairing her moccasins. She was looking for the Comanche chief who had killed her husband. Finally, she found him engaged in a Victory Dance around a bonfire with her husband's scalp hanging from his belt. Gouyen slipped into the circle of dancers, seduced the chief, and killed him, avenging her husband's death. Then she scalped him, cut his beaded breechcloth from his body and tore off his moccasins. She then returned to her camp to present her in-laws with the Comanche leader's scalp, his clothing and his footwear.

Gouyen remarried an Apache warrior named Ka-ya-ten-nae. Later, she and her family were taken prisoner by the U.S. Army and held at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where she died.


Lozen was born into the Chihenne, Warm Springs Apache band, during the late 1840's. She was the sister of Chief Victorio and a skillful warrior, a prophet, and an outstanding medicine woman. Victorio is quoted as saying, "Lozen is my right hand . . . strong as a man , braver than most, and cunning in strategy, Lozen is a shield to her people."

Legend has it that Lozen was able to use her powers in battle to learn the movements of the enemy and that she helped each band that she accompanied to successfully avoid capture. After Victorio's death, Lozen continued to ride with Chief Nana, and eventually joined forces with Geronimo's band, eluding capture until she finally surrendered with this last group of free Apaches in 1886. She died of tuberculosis at the Mount Vernon Barracks in Mobile, Alabama.

The stories of Geronimo, Crazy Horse, and Custer pale beside the tale of another warrior - one who fought relentlessly, successfully, and against all odds almost continuously for forty years. This warrior fought longer then Geronimo or Crazy Horse and more effectively than Custer. History suggest this warrior wielded supernatural powers, evaded successfully a full one-quarter of the United States Army, and displayed an epic personal courage and heroism. But you’ve probably never heard of her.” And it is no more than the truth, for who has ever heard of Lozen? This great warrior of the Apache is never mentioned in the White accounts of the Indian wars of the Southwest, and Aleshire believes that this was done by her own people. Not because they were ashamed of her, but because they wanted to protect her from the attention of the Whites who they had learned not to trust.

Lozenn is/was one of our most respected and revered warriors, probaly the greatest of us all. She fought in more campaigns and battles than any other Apache warrior, and I mean fought, with bow, with gun, with knife, and with teeth, she fought for our freedom. She was one of my role models for women growing up. How can I know her tale and think any woman weak or incapable? I could never disrespect women or her memory so.

If the Apache man defined the image of the warrior, raider and master tracker in the mystique of our western deserts, the Apache woman gave heart and sinew to her people under the punishing trials of a nomadic life.

The woman saw her worth recognized in the most fundamental traditions of the tribe. "At marriage a man goes to the camp of the girl’s parents to live," said one of Morris E. Opler’s Chiricahua Apache informants in his book An Apache Life-Way: The Economic, Social, & Religious Institutions of the Chiricahua Indians. "We do this because a woman is more valuable than a man. We do it to accommodate the woman. The son-in-law is considered a son and as one of the family. The in-laws depend a great deal on him. They depend on him for hunting and all kinds of work. He is almost a slave to them."

What is the Apache Sunrise Ceremony?

The Apache Sunrise Ceremony or na'ii'ees is an arduous communal four-day ceremony that Apache girls of the past and present experience soon after their first menstruation. Through numerous sacred ceremonies, dances, songs, and enactments, the girls become imbued with the physical and spiritual power of White Painted Woman, and embrace their role as women of the Apache nation.

For most of the four days and nights, to songs and prayers, they dance, as well as run toward the four directions. During this time, they also participate in and conduct sacred rituals, receiving and giving both gifts and blessings, and experiencing their own capacity to heal.

In the early 1900s, when the U.S. government banned Native American spiritual practices and rituals, conducting the Sunrise Ceremony was an illegal act; as a result, its practice diminished, and those ceremonies that did occur were conducted secretly.

Not until 1978, when the American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed, was the Sunrise Ceremony openly re-established on most reservations. But even today, because of the expense and time involved - which also includes four days of preparation and four days of teaching and recovery - some girls celebrate for one or two days, rather than have four day ceremonies. The families of girls entering puberty in a particular year may also sponsor joint Sunrise ceremonies, in which two or more newly menstruating girls celebrate the rites of Changing Women together.

To all of the women on this thread:

Never doubt that you are as capable, intelligent, courageous and enduring as any man.

Shake off any residual mental images of women as dependent, frail, ignorant or incapable.

Before the SHTF, figure out what skills you'll need and develop them. Learn how not to be lost no matter where you are. Skillsets are far more important that stuff, with the right skillsets you can replace stuff, but all the stuff in the world won't replace missing skillsets.

....Ok, side instruction for those never told: in the wilderness or strange city, always pick out four different peaks, tall trees, or other landmarks, one for each direction, tall enough to be seen from low or blocked places. Chances are you'll be able to keep at least two in sight at all times, three frequently. Combine that with a physical or mental map of the broader area, and you can never get lost.

When the SHTF I fully expect women to be full partners in survival, not dependents, sex toys, or victims. Without them there is no point and no fun.
edit on 7-3-2011 by apacheman because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:15 PM
reply to post by TKDRL

We are equals in the sense that both should respect each other, but women and men bring different skills to the table and I think that is what is being discussed here.

You left your pants down buddy........I can spot a weak man just by the way he is able to interpret and discuss a topic here on the forums.

And since this thread is about strength and survival amongst women your weakness seems a bit off topic here.

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:20 PM
reply to post by iLoGiCViZiOnS

Lol sorry if you thought that pointing out an attitude that I found might be counterproductive to the whole survival thing off topic. And really, trying to insult manhoods and call people weak will only effect the weak, I find such accusations a laugh riot, thanks

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:24 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Lots of great points, and some sound advice in there. Sounds like you knew some amazing people in your lifetime.

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:27 PM
reply to post by apacheman

I love your family as my own. Wish I'd met them. I admire such people - regardless of gender.

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:28 PM
reply to post by Rocky Black

One thing I would like to add is a parabolic mirror. Even if it is a small handheld one, those are awesome to have, really handy.

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 05:58 PM
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
Dear OP,
What a well thought out post, flag for you girl. I as a woman look at survival situations as a chance to use skills I may not have used in a while. I grew up camping foraging, hunting, fishing, and shooting anything and everything that propelled any type of projectile, and Im damn good with a tomahawk if needed for a bit closer stuff. I have alot to bring to the table, but I also have taken steps to put myself in with a group of reliable people that I trust.
If you are worried about being alone and surviving, take the steps now to cultivate those people you feel might be beneficial to YOU. Dont try to make yourself beneficial to someone else, to do so will only mean that someone will find a way to use you for what you can do or the knowledge that you have. Would it not be better to use that knowledge to benefit yourself and those you have chosen to be with rather than to be forced to use it for someone elses benefit? Preperation seems to be the survival creed of the day, and I agree, but that doesnt mean just stockpiling items and knowledge, it also means stockpiling a source of trusted individuals that you can count on when the chips are down.

Mountain man roundevous knap ins, and survival classes are great places to meet like minded people, as are historical reenactors who lean specifically toward pioneer years or medieval years. Alot of how they lived, and what they had to do to survive can come in handy when things go south

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 06:56 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Best post in the entire thread. This is what I want to see from women!!!!!!

It's just that I see so many girly girl chicks these days.... I forget there are true badass women out there.

Great post me friend.

posted on Mar, 7 2011 @ 07:08 PM

Originally posted by SolarE-Souljah
reply to post by apacheman

It's just that I see so many girly girl chicks these days.... I forget there are true badass women out there.

Great post me friend.

That's because they're where the badass men are........ALASKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haven't you ever heard of that saying In Alaska "where the men are men and the women are men to?" Well thats true *you can thank me for the visual later*

Hey at least there dependable especially in survival circumstances hehehe
edit on 7-3-2011 by iLoGiCViZiOnS because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-3-2011 by iLoGiCViZiOnS because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 11:18 PM

Originally posted by ForestForager
"After all women are an integral part of nature..." - Bio-Dome

I'd survive through hell with my wife at my side... without her, I think I'd lay down and die myself.

Brother you got that right. I'd rather die than be without my ladylove.

posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 11:58 PM
Hello, Interesting thread

@ the self defense videos I think you'd have to be conditioned and do that sort of thing atleast 3 times a week and or atleast have good response in the muscle regions that you would use to do such attacks because I can't imagine the asian women doing much trying to smack a thug rapist in the ribs he would probably just walk his weight into her and have his way. So I'd say atleast if a SHTF situation happened, know your technique (technique is vital because even having a conditioned body won't help if your standing there anchored to the ground throwing your arm around) and I guess some knowledge of the body wouldn't hurt either (ie unlocking your hips by twisting on the balls of your feet accordingly as you hit to add a lot more power - really using your core/hip momentum to throw your palm strike more efficiently at victims ribs).
Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do (Art of the Intercepting fist) would be a good place to start.

posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 07:14 PM
Okay, in an effort to get this thread back on track
I wanted to post that I purchased a rifle today. It's a Ruger 10/22. I used to shoot a lot in my youth and was pretty damn good at it, but haven't fired anything bigger than a pistol in many years. My son and I are going to take a shooting class next weekend so I can get comfortable with it again.

This was something I wanted to check off my "to-do" list. I've got a great start on food and water storage, as well as other supplies we'll need, but I was really feeling behind the curve in the home defense area.

In my area, there are 3 women and 1 man who are sort of a "group." We meet together periodically, and plan and figure things out together. I'd love to have more local folks join us, but as one of my best friends mentioned today, I'm wondering if there are a lot more of us "preppers" out there that only post on these forums but don't talk about it in real life for fear of being called crazy. I know for me, I am a manager at my very well-known Fortune 500 company, and when I've even mentioned my concerns at work, people look at me like I'm nuts. And since I need to keep my job to finance the preparation that I'm doing, I find myself keeping my mouth shut. I wish there were a way to meet more local people who could form a group, in case TSHTF.

But I'm grateful for all of you out there who are thinking and posting. I learn so much from you all!

posted on Mar, 11 2011 @ 07:17 PM
reply to post by UtahNavyBrat

Good for you! Have fun at the shooting class, definately a step in the right direction. Shooting is fun as hell, and a great stress release

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:57 AM

Originally posted by ForestForager
"After all women are an integral part of nature..." - Bio-Dome

I'd survive through hell with my wife at my side... without her, I think I'd lay down and die myself.

Brother, you got that right.

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 11:42 AM
Good thread.. Just adding observation that made over the years.. Women are equal to men able to do the work.. The villagers here farm and fish for their living the women work the same as the men - then some if theyve children to care for. All without the conveniences that people have there in the west. (No cars, no fastfood, no salons, no modern farm equipment etc.)
Along with quite capable of learning to defend themselves.. Taught both my wives and adopted children martial arts - they're quite skilled and Ive no doubt if needed to they could defend themselves from an attacker.
So ladies Ive no doubt that you can learn and achieve anything you wish .. Dont let anyone discourage you from learning..
If the proverbial shtf you'll be ready .. And be a stabilising influence on the men around you so maybe next time society wont be as messed up...

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 11:45 AM
reply to post by SolarE-Souljah

Just women by themselves.... Well maybe they can talk a deer to death. LOL.

Well, I have actually done that mister smarty pants.

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 12:43 PM
Firstly, this is my first ATS post! Hello all!

Alright, on to what I was going to say! Now I'm just adding my own two cents (or ten or whatever).
Personally, I think having the right mindset, in whatever SHTF situation may or may not happen is half the battle.
It also helps to have a good network of friends who won't ridicule or make fun of you for your 'preparedness' mindset/attitude. I have several male friends (I am a woman) who don't disrespect or think any less of my ability to survive or contribute to a survival group just because I am a woman.

In fact, what I find mildly amusing, (I am by no means making some reverse sexist statement here) is that often I know a bit more about the woods, guns, hunting and survival/preparedness (though not always, or in every area) than my guy friends!
Part of my mindset is because of the way I was raised by my mother and father. I often discuss survival topics and preparedness with my father in particular.

As such (I hope I'm staying on topic here) here are some personal ideas of mine to help with basic preparedness:
-Have a survival "bug out" pack ready at home or in your car if you need to be on the move. The list of items for such packs can be found all over the internet.
-Have food/water enough for family/yourself/friends/pets (let's not forget fido or bun bun!)
-Have some way to protect yourself. I know some may be anti-gun/rights/etc but I am firm supporter of gun rights myself. (Though that's not the only way you can protect yourself is obvious)
-Have a plan for a meeting place if you and your family/friends are separated at the time SHTF.
(I know I have missed a lot in this list, but it's just an over view, you guys know what I mean

As for what I can do as a woman specifically in survival situations...well I'm not sure, outside of "traditional" roles...I would prefer to accentuate the skills I have as an individual to help in a survival situation, you know? I am good with guns, hunting skills, and some others, as I've mentioned earlier. I guess that's it, I suppose.


posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 01:16 PM
Oh good grief. This is a no brainer. Women are just as capable as men in the every-day mechanizations of survival even in a more basic existence. I can certainly gut a deer faster than my husband. Dragging it around is easier for him though.
But I can get my horse to drag it for me and he has a hard time with that. So... Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. It comes down to your knowledge base at the end of the day. In general if you can learn it, you can do it.

So Hooray! I'll join the party. WooHoo! Sisters Doin It For Themselves!

But wait...

This thread has been buggin me for a while and this is where I am going to pi** every one off now... Hang on.

I know that this has been touched on in this thread, but I still feel it is being vastly underestimated. It isn't the environment that an individual woman needs to protect herself from, it's other people... This is why the whole "get a strong man to protect you" mentality came about in the first place. It wasn't first and foremost protect us from the environment (although they can don't get me wrong), but to protect us from other people... Usually men... But other people in general.

Human beings as social animals are dependent upon each other for survival. Even for those that can survive alone avoiding interaction with other human beings is difficult. In a more basic situation the more basic instincts would have fewer inhibitors---social sanctions, ideas about morality etc... to curb them, and people can get pretty silly, and brutal about breeding rights now. In that situation it will get very vicious very quickly, but I'll get back to that last bit.

This is how the instinctive contract works... Man protects woman to secure that one individual for procreational rights. He "claims" her within the group and the group supports this dynamic across the board because it contributes to stability (primarily less fighting among the males over breeding). In return she has the babies and contributes in the less risky environmental endeavors in order to protect the offspring. The man does the riskier things to hedge the bets in favor of his own offspring, and because frankly he (generally) is more physically robust and better suited to withstanding dangerous labor, but they share the work.

As an aside... I am aware that many people (particularly women) find this perspective offensive. They don't like to think about it. Tough Sh** girls, it's how it works when you strip the veneer of civilization.

Also, when there is a societal breakdown (i.e removing those social inhibitors in place to facilitate stability), historically things get very hard for women in a hurry. This is where I offend the men now, so no one feels left out...

Many men (especially young men) aren't that interested in social stability. They aren't even that interested in actual reproduction (children in other words) they are interested in having sex. There is a disconnect between the act and the consequence. Not only are they not that interested in creating social stability their own monkey-brain is screaming at them (not all but many) to have sex with as many women as quickly as they can. Because of this, when there is no society, (or a stronger male) to protect a woman she is now vulnerable to being a veritable disposable commodity.

Ladies, many men will not be interested in protecting you, they won't care about your skill set, or how survival prone you are, they may not even care (that much) what you look like, they will be interested in having sex with you and discarding you when they lose interest, (which may be as soon as they roll over frankly). Many won't give a rats a** about your consent.

Not to mention that many societies have repressed the "primitive male" within to the point that they have veritably no outlet... and when they get that outlet with no fear of consequences the sex and the violence get mixed up and that can get very, very ugly.

For example, (cause this one just dropped my jaw), putting "sand up there" will not help you, that will hurt you too, and try not to think about what happens when he's pi**ed because his pecker his torn up and it's your fault (cause that's how he will see it), and no one is going to call him to task for what he can do to you.

I see all sorts of discussions about knives and how to protect yourself, which is smart. Great. But... What if there are six of them... Or twelve?

That's just the sexual pressure, that isn't counting the struggle over resources between individuals and groups, and all of that can get mixed up in ways that is really muddy and mean. This isn't going to be happy-land I can grow my garden and hunt my food ladies. This will suck. This will suck more than many of you can even comprehend apparently.

You can't survive without a tribe. Fine. Have your friends with you. Surround yourself with those that are capable. Great. Smart. However whenever you take any animal and present them with new, and unpredictable stimuli you will get new and unpredictable behavior. When you add in intense pressure for resources, and a sort of reversion situation that fosters old instincts you will be caught flat footed by people you thought you knew well and even by yourself.

There is a reason why we have tried so hard for civilization, and glossing over the ugly because you (like many of us) realize that something has to give and you are tired of waiting for it to break, fail to realize that you will most likely be broken right along with it. There is no way for most women to prepare themselves for that kind of a scenario and still be functional within this one. Unless you are very lucky, (and rest assured it is luck not skill that will save you) it will be you, and your daughters, and your daughters, daughters that will suffer. I'm sorry, chances are that your capabilities will not matter. Not. One. Damn. Bit.

I'm sorry, for my bluntness and crudeness, but I really think that these lines of thought need a cold bath. Creating the skill set is smart, but going in with an unrealistic expectation is stupid.

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 03:37 PM
reply to post by redhorse

You bring a very interesting and good point up: You can't always trust those who you would think are trustworthy. That aside, I think it is best err on the side of caution with this. There are those who you can trust. And despite the situation of resorting to more primal instincts that you brought up (i.e. sexual lust/drive/etc) not every single man is going to be a jerk-face. I honestly don't think you were being crude, you were just being honest! You brought up some very good points to think about.

posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 03:48 PM

edit on 13-3-2011 by LadySkadi because: revise post soon

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