Christians - a question?

reply to post by Akragon


Yeah, you missed it:

I'm NOT saved by hearing someone else preach the cross. I'm saved by what happened at the cross. Christ was the sinless lamb of God. I'm saved by what He did, certainly not on any merit I deserve.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Yeah, you missed it:

I'm NOT saved by hearing someone else preach the cross. I'm saved by what happened at the cross. Christ was the sinless lamb of God. I'm saved by what He did, certainly not on any merit I deserve.

Actually i caught that...

He died on the cross, how does that save you?

reply to post by Akragon


"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

1 Corinthians 15:1-8


Christ died for all our sins. The Son of God took the wrath of God against all sin. The event foreshadowed by Abraham offering his son Issac as a sacrifice for sin.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

1 Corinthians 15:1-8


Christ died for all our sins. The Son of God took the wrath of God against all sin. The event foreshadowed by Abraham offering his son Issac as a sacrifice for sin.

So according to what you're saying...we can do no wrong because he died for "all our sins"?

reply to post by Akragon

So according to what you're saying...we can do no wrong because he died for "all our sins"?

What? Lol, No. When you're born again you have no desire to live continually in sin.

(That would be the present tense used in the Bible of salvation)

Wow... never any tension on these subjects are there.
Just to interject. Ignore me if you wish - either of you.

To sum up some very complex concepts on a forum is difficult to do in the best of times even with simpler subjects than this one. However I personally believe that it is a difficult concept made simple if you use what the book says to understand things. I am not going to use verses and such because adding them as proof... as most Christians do... holds no water to someone that does not think the book is valid to start with.

Basically - There is this thing called Sin. We got that from Adam... (call it what you like - but you know the basic concept of this already.)
Sin means we missed it - we fell. In this fallen state we have physical and spiritual death.
God made us for friendship and so forth - yet now because we messed up He cant really hang out like He wants to with us - that and we are dying off as a species pretty early in the game.
God tells man a price had to be paid to get things right again - a price man could not pay himself. He talked about this in many ways over the years... mostly its visible when we see the whole bloody sacrifice thing start. Its nasty - peta would not approve for sure... blood having to be shed to even "cover" the sin issue for people for a time and a season.
So the people were trained to kill - the whole sacrificial lamb thing and a scapegoat and a whole lot of symbolism going on in all of that back then...
All of the sacrifices were only ever temporary but even then they knew that one day the killing of animals would stop because a permanent payment for the debt of sin would be made.

The people were trained by God to kill the messiah - He said that He laid it down willingly. His sacrifice being just what was put in place long ago to take care of things for those that believed.

So far we have sin, death and a payment for sin in a permanent form (no longer animals) - and that was that.
Any person that took that payment as their own payment (as we are allowed to do) and reconnects with God using that method.

Basically the book says at one point - if you really really believed what Jesus did for you and that He is who He said He is... you would speak it out loud.
That form of verbal communication is what one verse says... is all it takes to be saved. Now if you mean it or not really is between you and God. A lot of people fake it. Seriously. Why I don't know.

So what happened... there in all of that?

To be saved...

You realize there is a thing called sin and you can't do anything about it in of yourself. The payment for sin was death - physically and spiritually.
More to the point the FULL payment was payment in spotless sinless blood.
If you agree and acknowledge that Jesus paid that price and rose again... and do something with that info like pray to God and ask for salvation... then if its genuine - you are saved.

You are not saved by attending church
You are not saved by speaking in silly "praise the lord" phrases every 5 seconds
You are not saved by shouting hate at anyone that walks by
You are not saved by following some moron that leads people around in ignorance and bigotry
You are not saved by acting snobby to other people or acting better than anyone else... (seriously!)
You are not saved by giving a preacher on TV all your cash for your 24 hour miracle (No Really!)
You are saved ONLY by the payment that Jesus made and accepting it and getting things right with God.

Its very little to do with you... however that point in time you should hopefully be interested in knowing more about what just happened and why it happened... and hopefully you would be interested in getting even closer in relationship with God and the one that paid the price for you. If you don't I would personally think that you were not really saved at all... but ultimately only God knows.

Being saved has nothing to do with stained glass or fancy buildings or shiny white suits and loud music... (thank God!)
Being saved means that as far as God and you are concerned - your slate is wiped clean and you have a chance at a new life in so many more ways that you can know.
Being saved means communication is now free and open between you and God and usually this means you start changing things in your life as He directs - for the better.

There is a little more detail that could be gone into... I foretell countless Christians shouting at me for being too simple in some of that and overlooking this and this...

Essentially that is all Salvation is... getting things right again with God through His Son and the payment that was made... Generally from that point on using that new relationship to change yourself inwardly and watching the things around you change as well.


I tell this to people all the time... as I said (i think) in my previous post. Its not about Religion its about Relationship … cause its plain to see that (any) Religion messes up everything it touches. The book calls its definition of religion man helping man… I think we can agree that no one uses that version of the word.


(I think no one reads my posts... but oh well. I am new here and get my post count up each time - whoo hoo!)

reply to post by ziplogan

(I think no one reads my posts... but oh well. I am new here and get my post count up each time - whoo hoo!)

Not true, good job laying it out in layman's terms.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


OK, saved from the power of Sin. I get that. but Sin was originally a Babylon King, and he is long dead and rotted. Sin-Muballit (reigned 1748 BC – 1729 BC short chronology) was the father of Hammurabi. He was the fifth king of the first dynasty of Babylonia. Yahweh hated him, as is recorded in the Bible.

How can he have power over anything? You Christians really should research your root words more, instead of just reading them in a literal manner.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

When you're born again you have no desire to live continually in sin.

Is this why so many Priests and Minister have affairs with women not their wives? Is this why so many little boys get molested in church? And friend, I have been born again. and again, and again, and again. Probably lived more lives here on Earth that I would have chosen to.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

OK, saved from the power of Sin. I get that. but Sin was originally a Babylon King, and he is long dead and rotted. Sin-Muballit (reigned 1748 BC – 1729 BC short chronology) was the father of Hammurabi. He was the fifth king of the first dynasty of Babylonia. Yahweh hated him, as is recorded in the Bible.

Do you really think that the Bible was written in English? Or that the King of Babylon had either an English or Hebrew word as part of his name, and the whole "offending God by breaking his rules" thing that is a constant theme of the Bible is a misunderstanding? You've made some outlandish claims in the past, but if this is a joke, you forgot the smiley face.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

So according to what you're saying...we can do no wrong because he died for "all our sins"?

What? Lol, No. When you're born again you have no desire to live continually in sin.

(That would be the present tense used in the Bible of salvation)

So you're saying once you're "born again" you won't sin.....we all know this is a lie. Humans are greedy hateful creatures....you may be inclined not to sin if you think you're saved or "born again" but its still in you. And more then likely you'll "sin" again...regardless of being saved.

This still isn't answering my question......."what makes you saved"... Jesus died for our sins is such a cop out... It explains nothing .... Typical white wash from your church...

People in that time were told "you only have one life to live"...very similar to what they tell you now...but some people can see through the lie. Think of it this way... If you only have one life to live...and have no access to books that contain spiritual knowledge.....The best thing you can do to avoid "hell" or eternal damnation (which they loved to spew out to the public) Is to listen to those who have that "spiritual knowledge"...Of course....this would be the bishops or ministers or what have you. One life to live.....so listen to what we tell you....or you'll burn!! Sound familiar?

They hit you with this white wash garbage.....believe what Jesus did for you....and your saved. While this is partially true....they'll never explain to you exactly what saves you from this eternal hell or death.

On the other hand i'd be more then happy to explain it since all anyone can seem to do is spit bible passages at me... Try to think outside your book...

How are you born into sin? Its simple....you can't be born into sin unless you've previously lived. Jesus explains to you that the Greatest in the kingdom of God is a child. So what the churches are telling you is that even though children are the Greatest in heaven....they're still sinners. How can a baby sin? He can't....its not possible. So we get back to the fact that we've all lived before... We've all build up our own Karma in our incarnations, and thus....are born over and over into whatever you created for yourself, or original sin.

People tend to focus on what happened on the cross.......but they're focusing on the wrong thing. Yes he died a horrible death...but again it wasn't his death that saves you...

He died for our sins...is your typical whitewash from whatever religion you chose. In focusing on this you understand nothing...yet somehow you're saved. Lucky for most its much easier then all that.......

It wasn't the fact that he "died on the cross" that saves you.....Its the fact that his death was not the end of his spirit. He showed everyone that death is only physical........but your spirit lives on.

He gave the world knowledge of the spirit, a belief that there is definately life after your body dies.

In knowing and understanding that information.....you are saved.

A mental assent or acknowledgment without action solves nothing.
Even in peaceful protests - or civil disobedience - there is action involved to try to bring about change.

IMHO I believe it is people like that - that only acknowledge Christ in their mind but not in their heart - is where you get people that dress, talk, smell, sound, and act (to a point) Christian... but their life is of no consequence... they seek only what they can get from God or out of the group of believers they show up with intentions other than what a gathering of believers should be focused on. Knowing and not doing is useless.

Pick any one of the other threads on ATS about protests turning to revolutions - they knew their Gov was corrupt and used the knowledge to at least protest and try to bring about change.

Why in for lack of a better word - in religion - does it make sense then to learn something and do nothing with it?

Yet in my short time on this planet I see it again and again. So called Christians setting the very low standards that the rest of us get accused of.

Out of those sort of people that come and go and fall away from Christianity "some how" I doubt they were "saved" at all. Acting Christian does not make you a Christian. I meet Christians that drink and smoke and cuss that I would rather hang out with than the phonies... I even ran into people that tried to keep people out of church because they smoked or drank or didn't dress in a certain way.

I was on staff at my church at that point and I brought it to the attention of the leadership at the same time as going to the smoking drinking swearing and hurting girl... and told her the truth. That no one has the right to tell you to stop going to church or try to make you conform to this or that.

Later on the girl showed up at church and sure enough this ignorant lady started berating her in the hallway about the same stuff - right there in front of everyone... I was about to stop her but then the girl walked right up to her face and called her a b%^*ch and so forth and I cheered her on!

So back to my very minor point... Acting like a Christian is not enough to make you a Christian. Neither is Knowing about Christianity - or this or that... (insert religion or random belief system here) without change and growth - you accomplish nothing.

At best you can sit and feel self satisfied and in a self justified way to suit behavior or actions (if any) to suit your whim.

Unfortunately - a few of you even mentioned it - Christians (so called) do the same - picking doctrines or making them up to suit the fact that they don't want to change their behavior or conform to the example that Christ set.

Salvation is not a license to sin... it says that in the book. At best once saved it means that you can get any future issues of messing up... and you will... right with your Father God - rather than letting them go unaddressed.

Salvation requires action. A gift has to be received to be accepted in any real sense. Imagine a birthday party and your beloved hands you a gift... arms outstretched - a hand written card on top waiting for you to read and open it and see what is inside the box... and you just say thanks and don't take it from them... thats what people do with the concept of salvation or knowledge of Jesus without action following it.

You knowing the gift is there does nothing to really truly accept it.

reply to post by Akragon


A widely held belief is that "original sin" is the tendency for people to act selfishly and in ways that are counter to not only what God tells us to do, but which most of us realize are wrong. If we didn't have the taint of original sin, we wouldn't act that way.

How are you born into sin? Its simple....you can't be born into sin unless you've previously lived.

There is a logical failure in this. There are more people today than there were yesterday, and more today than there were a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago and so on. If humans are reincarnated, where are the new ones coming from? Or if we are preexisting souls who decide to spend time on Earth, why do more and more souls keep making that decision?

If you wish to solve that problem by saying that new souls can come into existence, then would these people who weren't pre-existent not be "born into sin" by your theory? Why do they still act just like everyone else then? The conclusion one would come to is that, as the population grows and new, "sinless" souls enter society, things would get better, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

He gave the world knowledge of the spirit, a belief that there is definately life after your body dies.

In knowing and understanding that information.....you are saved.

Saved from what?

There are a number of views as to why Christ had to atone for sin, but I like this one by Anselm of Canterbury, a Catholic theologian in the Middle Ages. By ignoring God, choosing sin over loving him, we have offended God. God cannot simply ignore it, or he acquiesces to evil -- evil "wins". So Anselm saw things in terms of satisfaction, that God demands satisfaction (payment) in order to forgive us for intentionally trying to harm him.

This seems reasonable. Our laws proscribe punishments for crimes as part of this satisfaction premise. So, too, with God. But there is a problem, because the scope of a crime is something of a factor of who you are committing it against. In Anselm's time, for example, a crime against a peasant and a crime against the king carried notably different punishments. It's still the case -- if a man punches another man in the face, both our opinion and his likely punishment are much less severe then if he punches a woman in the face, or a child. Same act, degree of offense is solely on the basis of whom it's against.

The problem, as Anselm saw it, is that, in sinning against God, we have sinned against the eternal creator, and have, thus, incurred an infinite debt. A debt that we can never repay, for which God can never claim satisfaction. The only way out was for God himself to pay the debt, and that is why Christ died for us, and why we are saved -- we incur a debt we can never repay, Christ steps in, vouches for us, pays the debt, satisfaction is met, and God forgives.

Call it unnecessary overhead, if you like, but if you agree that God cannot simply ignore evil, and that justice must prevail, it makes a whole lot of sense.

reply to post by adjensen

There is a logical failure in this. There are more people today than there were yesterday, and more today than there were a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago and so on. If humans are reincarnated, where are the new ones coming from? Or if we are preexisting souls who decide to spend time on Earth, why do more and more souls keep making that decision?

So by this you assume that we are the only intelligent life in the universe... This premise is impossible just by the shear number of solar systems in our Galaxy alone...

No my friend its completely logical.....theres been many people that have experienced their past lives as a butterfly or a tree... It seems to me the "new ones" like you stated...always existed. Energy can't be created or destroyed....correct?

Saved from what?

Saved from the belief that you only have one life.......one chance. As i've said you create your own reality....so if you believe that when you die....thats it, its over....nothng more to see. Perhaps for that particular person...it might be...the end.

The problem, as Anselm saw it, is that, in sinning against God, we have sinned against the eternal creator, and have, thus, incurred an infinite debt. A debt that we can never repay, for which God can never claim satisfaction. The only way out was for God himself to pay the debt, and that is why Christ died for us, and why we are saved -- we incur a debt we can never repay, Christ steps in, vouches for us, pays the debt, satisfaction is met, and God forgives

And by believing this you are forever a slave to your religion..... God doesn't need a debt repaid, Nor did christ "step in and vouche for us" Again this is nothing but a cop out for religious people to continue to "sin" and do what they will...There will always be someone to forgive their actions.....hey you can even confess your sins to your minister / Rabbi or whatever they call themselves.... yet another sad joke. By the way, make sure you tip them....they're providing a service

Its completely pointless as a matter of fact, only because you are free to do whatever you like in this life anyways. You create your own Karma, so it doesn't matter what you do... If its wrong according to God, it will come back to you....and thus you will learn your lesson

Originally posted by Akragon
So by this you assume that we are the only intelligent life in the universe... This premise is impossible just by the shear number of solar systems in our Galaxy alone...

Actually, I do not make that assumption, but it only pushes your problem back -- no matter what creation belief you might hold, there was at one time no life in the universe.

Energy can't be created or destroyed....correct?

Correct -- that's the first law of thermodynamics. Which says that the source of any created energy in this reality must be outside of it and not subject to said law, which is what Christians believe is the nature of God.

Saved from what?

Saved from the belief that you only have one life.......one chance. As i've said you create your own reality....so if you believe that when you die....thats it, its over....nothng more to see. Perhaps for that particular person...it might be...the end.

I have seen other people state similar beliefs, and I cannot make sense of it, but that's okay. However, I do seem to recall seeing some statistic along the lines of atheists experiencing Near Death Experiences at about the same rates as theists, so I think that would contradict the notion that if you believe that there is nothing, then there is nothing. Anecdotal, though.

hey you can even confess your sins to your minister / Rabbi or whatever they call themselves.... yet another sad joke.

Actually, as a Protestant, I don't confess my sins to anyone but God.

Again, I am not writing these articles to change your mind -- I'm glad that you've found something that you're so passionate about. The point is to explain why the early church developed the beliefs that it did, and rejected teachings that it saw as being in conflict.

reply to post by adjensen

Actually, I do not make that assumption, but it only pushes your problem back -- no matter what creation belief you might hold, there was at one time no life in the universe.

I won't deny that.....whats your point?

I have seen other people state similar beliefs, and I cannot make sense of it, but that's okay. However, I do seem to recall seeing some statistic along the lines of atheists experiencing Near Death Experiences at about the same rates as theists, so I think that would contradict the notion that if you believe that there is nothing, then there is nothing. Anecdotal, though.

I was just presenting a theory honestly.....

Myself i believe everyone without exception goes to whatever afterlife there is. I know i've been there though i can't remember it.... so i make no assumptions of it. Life is a learning process....if you don't learn your lessons in this life, you come back for more.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Actually, I do not make that assumption, but it only pushes your problem back -- no matter what creation belief you might hold, there was at one time no life in the universe.

I won't deny that.....whats your point?

That your original point -- that people are "born into sin" because of past lives -- has the logical problem that, for at least one "go around", people cannot be in that state, and yet they still sin, so it can't be the source of doing wrong. The whole notion of karma has merit, but without retained memory, reincarnation seems like it cannot lead to a more and more enlightened position through the ages.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Actually, I do not make that assumption, but it only pushes your problem back -- no matter what creation belief you might hold, there was at one time no life in the universe.

I won't deny that.....whats your point?

That your original point -- that people are "born into sin" because of past lives -- has the logical problem that, for at least one "go around", people cannot be in that state, and yet they still sin, so it can't be the source of doing wrong. The whole notion of karma has merit, but without retained memory, reincarnation seems like it cannot lead to a more and more enlightened position through the ages.

so you're talking about the very first incarnation of ones soul or spirit? I guess that would be a problem, but remember this knowledge comes from a book that was written by man not God.

I don't claim to have all the answers friend

Retained memory from previous lives apparently can be recovered.

Still when you are born you are blinded from your spiritual past...I see reincarnation as the only way to lead to a more "enlightened soul" In each incarnation the soul grows through experience and thus has a tendency to be more "spiritual" .....More loving, more understanding...more empathetic...because through the lessons of his past lives this soul has probably experienced both sides of every situation... The lessons you haven't learned are presented to you in each incarnation.

Its what we're all here for, to learn... I believe if you learned all the lessons you needed to learn according to God....you wouldn't be here.

reply to post by Akragon

So you're saying once you're "born again" you won't sin.....we all know this is a lie.

I didn't say that. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually said and comment on that.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

no desire to live continually in sin

Gotcha, my bad..