Christians - a question?

reply to post by halfoldman


Don't let that confuse you, it is just like the child, they lie but they do not know the Truth so they are not sinners. Heathens are not sinners they are just lost. They will eventually find their way or they will wander.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


If a person knows the Truth and does what they want until their deathbed, then they are condemned and cannot be saved. Sorry, I do not believe that you can waste a life and expect a return. I suspect your confusing a Politician from a Christian.

reply to post by halfoldman



It's a poor question. A person needs to be "born again" which comes from the Holy Spirit. Once a person is born again they cannot become "unborn". Everyone commits sin after being born again, we still have a sin nature that won't be fixed until we have glorified sinless bodies at the resurrection.

So if a person is actually born again after saying the sinner's prayer they can't lose their salvation. So that's the focus, being born again by the Spirit, not a prayer made. Here's another way to look at it:

"How many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on the cross? Answer, ALL OF THEM were." ~ Chuck Missler

reply to post by NOTurTypical

So if I join another faith after I'm "saved" I will still be saved by Jesus when I die?

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So if I join another faith after I'm "saved" I will still be saved by Jesus when I die?

If you're born again of the Spirit you'll have zero desire to do that.

Breaking down the real concepts away from the religious ones here would be a good idea.
The bible at one point -
For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." Modern day word - Abba - means Daddy

The thrust of this very simple scripture is bore out in others that I will not bother you with for now.
Essentially when you become "saved" you are adopted into the Family of God. Now I won't go into the multitude of things that could happen to make one seem like they got saved or act saved or attend a church and walk down an aisle at some point or some nonsense... Only God and You know for sure if you are saved.

At that point you become part of the family. Just like a family - you get upset or mad at one another or even your parents... yet your still family. No real father kicks children out of the house - disowns them or punishes them for breaking a lamp or some such thing... all that is needed is to go and say Daddy I messed up - I am sorry I will try to do better - and you move on.

Religion teaches that you mess up once and God sends down a lightning bolt in your general direction.
The problem in todays world is the role of the father is messed up in most peoples thinking. So you tell someone that God loves you like a Father... well this does not work for those that the father abandoned them, abused them, or was never around.

However imagine an ideal world where a father figure was there in your childhood and always available to talk to and always ready to help you if you needed him... any real father would die for their children if it meant they would live. So how does the same concept of a father get so messed up that they think that after getting saved and you sin your going to burn? Its not going to happen. They don't have a real grasp of very simple concepts from scripture.

Additionally you get the other side of the argument - Oh what if I choose a different religion - or I do this or I do that... Or the even better version... I knew a christian and they did this and this...

Basically it breaks down to this... A christian is at best supposed to mirror Christ - and Christ like behavior.
This actually includes things that Christ did as our example in His life 2000 something years ago... So lets look at things that Christ did... Heal the sick, Raise the dead, Cast out Devils, Chastise the Religious leaders of the day, Gather people to Him to teach them, and point them to God the Father, Walk on water, tithe and offer, feed the hungry, etc...

So using that as a definition even in parts and bits and pieces how many people really qualify with the definition of a Christian? So one that gets saved has access to all of those things in essence. Not many get more than a few off that list in their lifetime...

SO when I hear the argument that you can lose your salvation, or sin or choose to be in a different religion... you were not (more than likely) a Christian to start with. (see my other reply to another Christian topic for religious categories that people fall into that call themselves Christian) ATS Forum Link

Real Christianity is not a religion but a Relationship with God the Father so real and so close that you and He can talk to one another and it be more real than you talking to your friends. A Father that loves you and helps you in your Daily life is not one that you would willingly walk away from.

Its not a tree hugging warm feeling of tingles and goosebumps or indoctrinated thinking from youth and brainwashing... but a real genuine relationship with the Creator of all things... That is not something you can really chalk up to wishy washy words like "higher power" or "light being" or "universal peace"

Its God, He is real and He loves us more than we know.
So this God - as a father wants to spend time with us and be involved in our lives. No single mistake is going to kick us to the curb. We are family now. Get used to the concept that family is forever and forgiving.

Sorry for the info overload. Scriptural references available if you want... I tend to talk in mostly english and not throw scripture around at every chance... no one reads them but Christians anyway in most cases.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Despite that, I'd still like an answer: if you're saved, and you sin here and there, are ya still hellbound?

Depends on whether you're asking a Catholic or Protestant, and further, which kind of Protestant.

Catholic -- absolutely. If you die in a state of Mortal Sin, you're toast. And there are a lot of things that can be considered Mortal Sin, and that's what the whole Last Rites and Rite of Confession are all about.

Protestant (Arminian) -- possibly. Though we are saved through God's grace, we have the free will to reject it, or renounce it after we have been saved. However, this requires the "sin against the Holy Spirit" sort of renunciation. Bad behaviour isn't condemnable, because everyone exhibits bad behaviour, though the case can be made that abhorrent behaviour is commensurate with a renunciation of faith.

Protestant (Reformed) -- technically, no. If you have true faith, saving faith, you cannot lose it, no matter what you do. What about someone who is "saved" and then goes and murders and rapes and does all sorts of horrific things? Or renounces their faith? Well, they obviously never had "true faith" in the first place, so they were never saved.

Personally, I'm an Arminian, though I can see the merits of the other two positions. An easy delineation is the answer to the question "Can there be Christians in Hell?" A Catholic would have to say "yes", while a Protestant would have to say "no".

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by halfoldman
Despite that, I'd still like an answer: if you're saved, and you sin here and there, are ya still hellbound?

Depends on whether you're asking a Catholic or Protestant, and further, which kind of Protestant.

Catholic -- absolutely. If you die in a state of Mortal Sin, you're toast. And there are a lot of things that can be considered Mortal Sin, and that's what the whole Last Rites and Rite of Confession are all about.

If you truly repent before death then you go to heaven - or at least that is what I was taught - the last rites & confession are only outward signs of repentance - they may make it easier to repent, but they do not do it for you, and the priest does not forgive you your sins in confession - only god can do that.

only god knows what is truly in your heart and will decide.

As I said above this is 60's & 70's Catholic school indoctrination - primary, & secondary, by brothers & sisters, attached to a church at primary & a cathedral at secondary.

I could never understand the "grace" thing that some protestant friends tried to explain to me a couple of years back.

But what the hey - I dont' belive in any imaginary friends any more, so I'm off to hell anyway! :p

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by halfoldman
Despite that, I'd still like an answer: if you're saved, and you sin here and there, are ya still hellbound?

Depends on whether you're asking a Catholic or Protestant, and further, which kind of Protestant.

Catholic -- absolutely. If you die in a state of Mortal Sin, you're toast. And there are a lot of things that can be considered Mortal Sin, and that's what the whole Last Rites and Rite of Confession are all about.

If you truly repent before death then you go to heaven - or at least that is what I was taught - the last rites & confession are only outward signs of repentance - they may make it easier to repent, but they do not do it for you, and the priest does not forgive you your sins in confession - only god can do that.

Correct, the priest absolves you of your sins -- in effect, resets you back to your baptismal salvation, though it's not technically complete until you do your penance, the "Say 10 Hail Marys and 4 Our Fathers" part. True repentance plays a part in both Catholic and Protestant views, as no one that I'm aware of preaches that an insincere faith is a saving one. The person who has led a selfish and sinful life and who feels bad on their deathbed far more likely feels bad about the fact that they're dying, not that they were lousy toward others in their life.

It is said that all Christians live within "salvation tension", which differs for each of the three categories I've noted. The Catholic worries whether their works are sufficient -- are they in a state of Mortal Sin, or merely one of Venial Sin? It's tough to say, because the lines are fuzzy.

The Arminian Protestant worries about whether they will remain true to the faith until they die, because being saved today doesn't mean anything if you're going to live another fifty years. It's tough to say, since no one can tell the future, or what temptations lie ahead.

And the Reformed Protestant worries about whether they have "true faith" or "temporary faith", which results in the seemingly crazy "conversion experience" process, but even that isn't conclusive, since no one can tell that their experience was truly sincere.

It is fairly easy to see, however, why each of these groups have this tension, given the nature of what they believe to be at stake.

Lots of good theology here people. Here's mine.

Paul the Apostle said "Take up your Cross everyday" which pretty much refers to living the life of Christ. If you are truely a follower of Christ, you would be secure in your faith in God and your salvation. All have fallen short of the glory of God, and yes, we will continue to do so untill the day we die. We are born into a world of sin. But that is exactly why Jesus died for us. When he died, he was the perfect sacrifice, the perfect example of how to live our lives. Christianity literally means "Little Christ". The whole purpose of being a Christian is to live and breathe God, to be a shining example of his purity and love, despite being human, and thusly a sinner. And as stated before, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, then refute Him or His power, you never believed in the first instance. God still loves you, but your falseness in live was nothing but vain.

reply to post by halfoldman


Nope once your saved your always saved. Christians sin just like everybody else, we do it everyday. We simple go out of are way trying not to sin. If we could be unsaved by sinning then none of else would ever be able to be saved.

This whole concept of being saved is a joke...really.

What makes you saved?

Attending your church?

Believing that Jesus died for your sins, so no matter what you do you're "saved"

Knowledge of the spirit is all you need to be saved. Love everyone and everything....do your best in life, be positive. With knowledge of spiritual ways...your soul will progress naturally.....

You don't need a bible to be saved... Knowing your spirit exists saves you.....

From there you make your own way, and your Karma will correct you as necessary....

Originally posted by Akragon
This whole concept of being saved is a joke...really.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

1 Corinthians 1:18

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
This whole concept of being saved is a joke...really.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

1 Corinthians 1:18

So what of the preaching of the cross.....what makes you saved by hearing another preaching about those events?

reply to post by Akragon


Good question. I'm NOT saved by hearing someone else preach the cross. I'm saved by what happened at the cross. Christ was the sinless lamb of God. I'm saved by what He did, certianly not on any merit I deseve.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Good question. I'm NOT saved by hearing someone else preach the cross. I'm saved by what happened at the cross. Christ was the sinless lamb of God. I'm saved by what He did, certianly not on any merit I deseve.

Alright, think of the idea of being "saved'........because he died on the cross, you're saved? What does that mean to you?

Can you explain this or is it just that happens automatically...because you heard it, or read it..

I too would love to know the answer to this, as Hell was just a trash pile outside of Jerusalem, and Satan is made up, and Jesus is dead. So, what are we supposed to be scared of, that we have to "get saved," I guess that is a blood oath when you eat the flesh of, and drink the blood of your godman. Anyway, given the dimensions of the Christian heaven, which are clearly given in the Bible, with all of the good little Christian dying for all these years, it has to be full by now. No Vacancy. can all come to Summerland though. Big and wide, and never full. Coldest beer and hottest women in the Galaxy, dancing in the moonlight, and glory to the Goddess.

reply to post by Akragon


Okay salvation is referred to in 3 tenses in the scripture. It's called the 3 "P's" of salvation. A person can say "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

Past tense: We have been saved from the Penalty for sin, Hell by Christ's work at the cross.
Present tense: We are being saved daily from the Power of sin over our lives by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit within us.
Future tense: We will be saved from the Presence of sin in our bodies when we are given glorified sinless ones at the resurrection.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Okay salvation is referred to in 3 tenses in the scripture. It's called the 3 "P's" of salvation. A person can say "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

Past tense: We have been saved from the Penalty for sin, Hell by Christ's work at the cross.
Present tense: We are being saved daily from the Power of sin over our lives by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit within us.
Future tense: We will be saved from the Presence of sin in our bodies when we are given glorified sinless ones at the resurrection.

ok...past present and future....thats not what i asked.

Why are you saved?

Yes we all know he died on the cross........but why does that save you from death or hell or whatever it is you think you're saved from?

He died for our sins isn't a explanation to "why" you're saved...

reply to post by Akragon


I've already answered that. What else are you wanting to know or are you trolling?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I've already answered that. What else are you wanting to know or are you trolling?

No you didn't.... the three P's? are you serious..?

Or did i miss it?


Btw i don't troll religious threads, only rediculous ones