Michael Moore: America IS NOT Broke, Madison Speech

reply to post by aching_knuckles


What im saying is Moore is a hypocrite, if the wealthy are trying to keep themselves rich by making the middle class poor, then what is he doing?The same thing

look at all of is movies, they came out just in time to capitalize on people's insecurities, so in effect he is doing what he denouces.

I have an idea for him, give up all your money to show good faith and hope the rest of the wealthy follow insuit. It wont happen I dont think their is anything he can do to gain respect from me.

Originally posted by joejack
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

What im saying is Moore is a hypocrite, if the wealthy are trying to keep themselves rich by making the middle class poor, then what is he doing?The same thing

Can you prove this statement? Even one link? How are movies "keeping people rich by making the middle class poor"? Have you ever even seen "Roger and Me"? Moore has consistenly been fighting for the middle class for years, as he is from Flint MI, where the middle class was destroyed.

Also, I hardly think moore is making blockbusters that are topping the charts. More people probably saw X-MEN than all of his movies combined.

It sounds like you are making up lies and reasons to dislike him because you dont agree with him politically.

reply to post by aching_knuckles



You may be reading in to that statement too much, Im not saying he is trying to hold down the middle class by making movies, selling book, ect... What he is doing is selling his leftist propaganda to whom ever will listen to his dribble. Making profit on peoples emotions and insecurities when ever something goes wrong in this country.

He does make some good points sometimes but has a nack for streaching or distorting the truth to fit in his little argument. His contributions to perpetuate nation term-oil doesnt help anyone by adding fuel to the fire.

Telling the "general public" who is at falt in his eyes for any problem that may arise, is not helping anyone. America "may" not be broke, the weath of this country "may" be held by the top 1%. The only reason he jumps in the situation is so he can make a buck. Pointing the finger and saying "they did it" accomplishes nothing

Take a look at "Sicko" yes their is a problem with the heathcare system and insurance companies, but every thing he puts forth to show his view is so distorted its hard to follow is actual argument he tries to make.

Originally posted by joejack
Telling the "general public" who is at falt in his eyes for any problem that may arise, is not helping anyone. America "may" not be broke, the weath of this country "may" be held by the top 1%. The only reason he jumps in the situation is so he can make a buck. Pointing the finger and saying "they did it" accomplishes nothing

Wait, isnt this what we all do here on ATS? I know I do, and if I could make a movie about it, I would. Im sure if someone approached you to make a movie about how socialism is ruining america for a million dollars, you would jump at the chance, would you not?

But it sounds like you are just another FOXbot, as you use the buzzword "socialism", and you dont like him because he is not on "your side".

I'd rather watch Moore's films than hire him as my accountant.

reply to post by aching_knuckles


Maybe I should be more literal when talking to you, you seem blinded my Michael Moore's aura. He points his finger at who is at fault in his mind. Like I said he does make a point like "America is not broke" true we are a powerhouse economy (or once was how ever you want to look at it). He takes this truth then applies it to his "leftist" views (yes his view is to the left) which just makes the situation worse. Spreading conjecture and propaganda is no way to inform the public what is happening.

I dont recall using the word "socialism" but thank you for putting words at least I didnt have to pay for them. If someone offered me a million to make a movie that would be used as propaganda to push the view of any party I would tell them to keep it. Instead I would work to fix the situation rather than exacerbate it with misguided political views.

Ill let the FOXbot one slide, Glen Beck is not my idol he is the right wings Michael Moore

Originally posted by joejack
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

Maybe I should be more literal when talking to you, you seem blinded my Michael Moore's aura. He points his finger at who is at fault in his mind. Like I said he does make a point like "America is not broke" true we are a powerhouse economy (or once was how ever you want to look at it). He takes this truth then applies it to his "leftist" views (yes his view is to the left) which just makes the situation worse. Spreading conjecture and propaganda is no way to inform the public what is happening.

I dont recall using the word "socialism" but thank you for putting words at least I didnt have to pay for them. If someone offered me a million to make a movie that would be used as propaganda to push the view of any party I would tell them to keep it. Instead I would work to fix the situation rather than exacerbate it with misguided political views.

Ill let the FOXbot one slide, Glen Beck is not my idol he is the right wings Michael Moore

Just to get the thread back on topic;

Moore isn't knocking people who are wealthy, he's reporting on those people who amassed HUGE fortunes through falsehood, fraud, crone-ism, manipulation.and outright lieing. They produce no real products, they provide no real service, and you paid them without choice. They SCREWED YOU, the common man out of your money and investments. Moore provides a product and service that people WILLING pay for. See a difference?

And you don't want this brought to light because you think it exacerbates the situation and it's propaganda? To me, that stinks of the "head in the sand" syndrome. The facts are the facts. If people don't openly discuss thinks of this nature to begin with ( facts), no solutions will ever be thought of and implemented.

Again....I highly suggest people view the documentary: "Inside Job" by Charles Ferguson. You'll all realize we're on the same team, regardless of party affiliation....and it has now become US vs THEM, the common, honest man ( wealthy or not) against the super elite , dis-honest man( power brokers and manipulators).

Wisconsin isn't about money or benefits, it's simply about breaking YOUR spirit, YOUR soul and forcing you to finally bow down and accept. Total compliance and capitulation...........it's a Wall Street government and a Banker's World order. Tea Partiers and Union advocates.......your on the same team, focus your disgust at those that deserve it, not each other

reply to post by Connector


This doc. Is it available on the internet? If not where would you suggest I get a copy. Didn't see on comcast. Blockbuster by us is no longer. The library says they will get back to me.

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by tooo many pills

 

" The truth is, there's lots of money to go around. LOTS. It's just that those in charge have diverted that wealth into a deep well that sits on their well-guarded estates. They know they have committed crimes to make this happen and they know that someday you may want to see some of that money that used to be yours. So they have bought and paid for hundreds of politicians across the country to do their bidding for them. But just in case that doesn't work, they've got their gated communities, and the luxury jet is always fully fueled, the engines running, waiting for that day they hope never comes. To help prevent that day when the people demand their country back, the wealthy have done two very smart things:"

What he says here is nothing New . So how is he Personally gonna Change that ? This Speech in nothing more than a Publicity Stunt by him to gain Attention .

edit on 6-3-2011 by Zanti Misfit because: (no reason given)

Yeah, I guess he shouldn't have said anything at all right?
Grow up, stop judging someone based on others opinions of him, make your own opinion up.

Originally posted by joejack
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

What im saying is Moore is a hypocrite, if the wealthy are trying to keep themselves rich by making the middle class poor, then what is he doing?The same thing

look at all of is movies, they came out just in time to capitalize on people's insecurities, so in effect he is doing what he denouces.

I have an idea for him, give up all your money to show good faith and hope the rest of the wealthy follow insuit. It wont happen I dont think their is anything he can do to gain respect from me.

Why don't you give up your money to the homeless?
Hypocrite.

Originally posted by crappiekat
reply to post by Connector

 

This doc. Is it available on the internet? If not where would you suggest I get a copy. Didn't see on comcast. Blockbuster by us is no longer. The library says they will get back to me.

reply to post by crappiekat


It is out on DVD.

Amazon

IMDB

InsideJob.com

And of course it's been making the rounds on the bittorrent clients

As I mentioned before, it goes into the fine detail on how it was done, by whom and why, with each agonizing step... going back into the 70'-80's. It is a very bi-partisan look at the global banking elite. It will blow your mind.

Please pass along.............

reply to post by Connector


Ok sorry to derail the topic somewhat, but instagating class warfare doesnt solve the problems at hand.
The people at the top do have misguided morals and Moore does point this out which is good. The averege american does have to take a little bit of the blame for this for living beyond its means.

The top elite allowed us too live beyond our means by issuing loans and credit lines knowing that a the payments cant be sustained. We make payments on these loans, they hike up the cost of living and dont make the adjustments to the working man, making payments unstainable they take the property leaving us with nothing and our money in their pockets. That is where we made our mistake.

As soon as all of us realize we have the power to stop this, than something can be done. The rich cant get richer if we dont give them our money. Allowing goverment bail-outs of financial institutions is another problem that we let happen by not voicing the priorities of our country. Michael Moore fails to metion this. Let the elite overgrow their own body and topple that would redistribute weath. Good thing about capitalism is if the guy ontop goes under someone will take his place.


and the american people need to keep the goverment in-check not the other way around. Politicians get rich by accepting bribs from companies to pass laws that help the companies get richer

reply to post by joejack


Alex NEVER FORGOT about the Dirt on this Guy either !


www.youtube.com...

Check out Michael Moore tonight on the Rachel Maddow Show
at 9:00 PM ET/PT on MSNBC as he talks with Rachel about
his Madison speech, the Forbes 400, and the latest
attack on cities and unions in Michigan:

Link to Michael Moore's Web Site and Rachel Maddow Video on Michigan

This video with Rachel Maddow on what the Michigan Governor is trying to do in Michigan will blow your mind.

Incredible speech Mr. Moore.
I'm no fan of his movies or politics but this speech was truthful and inspiring.
The media would have us believe all the Wisconsin state workers are greedy leeches who just want more, more, more. It's the government and the uber rich who want more, more, more!
Bush's parting gift of the TARP bailouts was the greatest slap in the face the American taxpayer has ever received .
Damn straight I'm mad, we bail these clowns out for Trillions of $ and they're already filthy, stinking, rich!

Mr. Moore needs to get one thing straight and it is not a small thing - WE DON"T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY!!
I don't care if you didn't go to college, that is something every American should know.

God save the Republic and the working men and women of America.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

Uh, by trying to prove me wrong, you proved me right. Look at the bolded part. Why would they only be able to provide 10%? Maybe because thats all that was deposited, like I said.

Such a simple minded fellow. Your understanding is incomplete. You've got some of the right nuts, bolts, and whatchyamacallits - just not in the right spot or order.

It seems like the point you were trying to make is that the people losing money are investors in the bank, people with money to invest. But its not true...that other 90% is "made up" and then interest is collected on it. How is it "made up"? The Fed prints it and acts as "the bankers bank", like you said. That 90% is not backed. Which is why the system is a scam in the first place.

You fail to make the connection between currency and product. The reason fractional reserve banking is such a powerful economic tool is because - so long as the currency is perceived to have value - it can drive productivity as though it were not devalued. So long as the wealth generated adds up to be very similar to the 'magipoofed' amount of currency, then all appears well.

However, you seem to be under the impression that if this money is not paid back, that wall st. investors who make our world go round are suffering and losing out, as they provided the other 90%. That is simply not true.

We all lose out due to hyper-inflation.

Here's what happened, in a nut-shell, because you don't seem to understand. The economy was pretty stable - America had a very strong manufacturing and resource industry coming out of World War II and heading into the 60s and 70s. Gas prices were an almost insignificant fraction of per-capita GDP and few other countries in the world could rival our manufacturing capabilities and quality. Most jobs were fairly stable and secure - the vast majority of the unemployed were transients that were only unemployed for a few months to a year.

Why live in a dingy apartment when your current income will qualify you for a loan to get you a nice two or three bedroom house on the corner? Job security bolstered the concept of credit lending. Banks quickly learned the power of lending and, as technology allowed, began issuing lines of credit for general goods and services (in the form of credit cards). As we entered the 90s, the average per-capita debt was substantially higher than the per-capita income.

It was only natural that the housing market got hit first. Houses are like other hard assets like precious metals - worth a lot when people are having trouble finding a seller, and almost worthless when you can't find a buyer. The housing market had largely been driven by lines of credit. As manufacturing jobs began to evaporate from our economy and per-capita debt soared - people were simply unable to bear the burden of the debts they had voluntarily taken on. Houses began to foreclose, and the number of sellers began to overwhelm the number of buyers. Housing values dropped.

The housing market had been a sort of economic 'sink' to dump the inflationary spending into. Mortgages are taken out over a manner of decades - loaning someone several times the amount of cash you actually have for a loan to be paid off over the course of twenty years at a quarter of their annual salary masks the fact that the money to cover that asset isn't there. However - since the loan is leaned against the value of the house (artificially inflated due to the number of people looking for housing and getting lines of credit to do so) - and these loans are a huge function of the overall economy - their value will rapidly depreciate to well under the liability of the loan should a downturn occur.

Translation: I have money, and so should you! If you dont, dont worry, just spend less! I have money, but I cant spend any, or it would ruin the economy! (I seriously still cant believe you said that people spending money would kill the economy...we are a consumer based economy!)

It's as I said earlier - these people with "all this money" in the bank can't really spend all of that money. Or, they could - but since the bank only operates at a 10% reserve status (possibly more, depending upon what bank it is), spending that money would only go further to devalue the currency on the market.

We are not a consumer driven economy. We are a lending/credit driven economy.

This is "rich" thinking at its best. "Well, if I could somehow get a little money in the bank, its easy! Everyone should be able to do it, they are just lazy/stupid/ignorant!"

To be blunt - that's pretty much true.

There's a little bit of concession there for those who have over-obligated themselves (kids, families, etc) without adequate prior awareness - but, really, saving money is not that difficult. Most people just have a spending and priorities problem. I guarantee I get paid far less than you do and spend twice as much as you do just to get to work. I room with friends and sleep on the couch while splitting the rent three ways. I -could- get my own apartment - but saving is more important than having a my own bachelor pad. I don't need to impress any chicks and try to get laid, either - last thing I need is to deal with an unexpected kid.

I don't need a Mustang, WoW subscription, or even my own room (hell, haven't had one since I got brothers, and I won't when I have a wife and kids... why start now?).

Now - others can set up their priorities how they want to, but I know many people who are lucky to have a thousand dollars set in reserve. They could barely go a month being unemployed before being eligible for bankruptcy.

That's poor planning. All there is to it.

Drive investors to other markets via tax? I hate to tell you this, but businesses dont leave because of tax, they leave because they can pay a chinaman 10 cents instead of paying an American 10 dollars an hour. Heard of NAFTA? If anything, there should be a tarriff and more taxes on every cheap piece of chinese crap coming into this country, so that the american worker would have a chance to survive!

Here's the gap in your thinking... why are Americans still trying to center their economy around goods that minimally educated and paid Chinese people can build? We forged our economy by doing what few others could do - and doing it better than they did.

What's missing now?

Higher taxes also do not help. We can compete with China on a price level when dealing with the higher-quality and more technically demanding and advanced manufacturing. We could beat them hands-down with lower taxes. The problem is that the taxes carry over to any buyer, American or not. Israel pays some of our corporate taxes when they purchase products made here. While you might think that's good - it doesn't help when trying to sell things against competitors who have very low employee wages by comparison.

It is cheaper for a company to go to china, build a factory and hire workers, create a product, ship it across the world back to america and put it in walmart than it is to build a factory here and pay american workers! That is nonsense! Are you telling me that china has a freer econonic system? If American businesses just want freedom, why the fck are they going to china?? is there no government regulation in china?? they execute people over there for business failures!

We persecute people for business success, and will probably be executing them before much longer.

Of course, the real question should be why it should cost so much more to live here in America. I'll admit - your average worker in China doesn't get nearly the quality of life the average worker does here in America - but the cost to quality ratio is disproportionate with America catching the worse side of the deal.

they go to china for one reason, CHEAP LABOR. It has nothing to do with taxes, in fact these traitors are paying the chinese tax money to be there.

Hey, I'll be honest with you. I plan on making my own manufacturing industry some day centered around the defense industry. Current regulations here in the U.S. will prevent me from selling the type of advanced weaponry I want to sell to anyone but the U.S. It's simply a game I refuse to play. I'll be more than happy to hire from the American labor pool - but will more than likely set up business somewhere where the locals are a little more appreciative to have work and be getting paid a fair wage for it.

A business cannot afford to operate and compete at a loss.

Of course, as you say this - some of your largest domestic industries (the beverage industry) report 30% profit margins while your most criminal of outsourced companies report only a 5% profit margin.

In fact, you would not be able to afford the computer you are currently on, had it been made in America. It would, easily, cost twice as much as it does now.

We, as Americans, have bigger and better things to do. We should be industrializing space - pioneering new forms of agriculture and energy. That is how we should be driving our industry and economy forward. We don't need to be making spoons, fans, or even computers anymore. Other countries can do it and for far cheaper than we can afford to pay our workers and still expect them to live comfortably.

It's time for us to do something worth our higher cost of living for a change. We cannot remain stagnant, doing the same things day in and day out, and expect to stay on top of the world.

if america were FOR THE PEOPLE, we would tax the bejeesus out of these imported products. but it is a PRO BUSINESS CORPOROTOCRACY that allows companies to pay chinese wages and sell at american retail prices. Yes, poor big business in america is sure getting strangled by the .gov, huh?

It's not really the big business that needs to be mentioned at all. Never has been, and never will be. The problem is in how difficult it is to start up a business and do something new. To "ensure our safety" - a wide range of products and services require government approval via systems that are simply impractically long for any start-up to undertake. I could - in theory - build a fusion power plant in my garage and it'd not see the light of day for ten years to clear the hurdles of red-tape that would prevent me from using anything new to generate electricity and sell it to people.

Ever thought about starting up your own line of cars? Wouldn't be that difficult for even a relatively small shop with some moderate start-up capital (under a million dollars) - spare for all of the regulations to 'keep us safe' that would balloon the start-up costs to several million plus years of testing and qualifying for certifications. Same with pharmaceuticals - hell, people can and do make them on their stove-top (granted, the illicit and dangerous class of amphetamines).

It's the small businesses that drive innovation and keep our industries agile and on the leading edge of the times. Large business will always be the high-volume suppliers that will always gravitate toward lower cost/part. They don't drive innovation so much as they, eventually, make it the common denominator.