The Antichrist and The Whore of Babylon, page 1

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

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I would argue that the "harlot of Babylon" is a corporate body, not an individual.
She's part of the long Biblical tradition in which Israel is metaphorically represented as a woman, the faithful or unfaithful wife of God.
She rests on the "Beast from the sea", which is also a corporate body (the human individual who most deserves to be called an "antichrist" is represented in Revelation by the second Beast, the "beast from the land")

I ended up doing five different threads on the nature of the Harlot, but a good starting point would be;

Harlot Babylon; "the other woman"

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

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I would argue that the "harlot of Babylon" is a corporate body, not an individual.
She's part of the long Biblical tradition in which Israel is metaphorically represented as a woman, the faithful or unfaithful wife of God.
She rests on the "Beast from the sea", which is also a corporate body (the human individual who most deserves to be called an "antichrist" is represented in Revelation by the second Beast, the "beast from the land")

I ended up doing five different threads on the nature of the Harlot, but a good starting point would be;

Harlot Babylon; "the other woman"

That's an interesting concept.

Would you say that the US and its relationship to Israel is similar to the antichrist and his relation to the whore of babylon?

Danbones-
Ps have any of you actually considered that the Aunti christ might be .....
a ..girl
after all christ was a boy...
they say

Well... yes. I don't mean to sound sexist or anything, I'm just going off of the generally perceived prophecy; most of the imagery involved shows the anti-christ as a seven-headed beast (called "To Mega Therion") being ridden by the crimson whore of babylon.

Personally, when I think "antichrist", I don't see it like bizarro superman or something. The antichrist isn't necessarily the opposite of Christ in my opinion.

By the way, when I say "whore" of Babylon, I am just calling it as what I've read over the years. Perhaps a whore 2000 years ago is not considered a whore today, but that's what they called her (probably has something to do with temptation and the seven sins).

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Would you say that the US and its relationship to Israel is similar to the antichrist and his relation to the whore of babylon?

If we're trying to understand the "Beast of Revelation", we've got to start with the fact that the Beast is supposed to be persecuting the church.
That's the whole point of the book, so the issue can't be ignored. Revelation is addressed to a church facing persecution, and it's designed to encourage them to face the persecution without giving way.

Now then, is the United States currently persecuting Christians and putting them to death, specifically on the charge of being Christians? Is it likely to start doing these things in the near future? No? Then it's not yet acting as the Beast.
For that matter, is there any great world-leader who is now publically claiming to be the returned Christ? No? Then we haven't got the Antichrist yet, either.

The essence of the relationship between the Beast and the Harlot is that the Beast is persecuting the church, and the Harlot is acting as an accessory, being unfaithful to God.
In my threads, I suggested that the Christians of John's time might have seen the Jews of John's time as the Harlot. They were exempt themselves from taking part in the state religion, and they were supposed to be alerting the authorities to the existence of the Christian groups.
I don't think this means the Harlot in a future persecution would be "the Jews", as such. I think they would be a different group of people, behaving in a similar way. My theory is that when the persecution began, the church would split between compromisers and resisters, and "the Harlot" represents the first group, helping in the persecution of the second.

For fuller explanations, I recommend;

Index to Revelation threads

The whore of babylon will be the vatican.
www.remnantofgod.org...

reply to post by DISRAELI

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Just throwing this out there, but on a global level of modern religion, there does seem to be a war going on between Christians (the West) and Islam (the middle east/Muslim Brotherhood). Bush himself even said that God was telling him to invade Iraq.

Do you consider the beast and the antichrist to be two separate entities also?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Do you consider the beast and the antichrist to be two separate entities also?

Revelation ch13 has got two different beasts, one "from the sea" and one "from the land".
On analogy with the "beasts from the sea" in Daniel ch7, I've been assuming that the first beast is a political state.
The beast on which the harlot is sitting appears to be the first beast.

On the other hand, I take the "beast from the land" to be an individual, perhaps the leader of the state.
I used the analogy of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich.
The second beast exercises the authority of the first beast, and makes people worship the first beast.
So Adolf Hitler exercised the authority of the Reich and effectively insisted on worship of the Reich.
So if anyone's going to be an antichrist, it's going to be the second beast.

Revelation doesn't actually use the word "antichrist"; but it certainly hints at the possibility that someone -the second beast, if I'm right- will be imitating and claiming to be Christ.

For further reference;
The Beast from the sea- a World-state.
Great leader and antichrist


PS Incidentally, it is the first beast, and not the second, that suffers the "mortal wound".
So the appearing to die and then making an astonishing recovery is something which happens to a state, not to an individual.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

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Dimitri, are you a Christian, do you belong to a church. I hate to offend you but you are either a young Christian or a borderline believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Have you been spending much time in research because I see no real insight about the Revelation of Jesus Christ by John in your post. Please respond with a little more depth in your thread. Anyone who has spent any amount of time would not make this thread. Are you in the USA or abroad?
You have been a member of this board since 2008 and you have no more to offer on this subject than this? It makes me wonder if I would be wasting my time posting here. I do not wish to offend you but something does not add up here. You say:

"I'm not saying that I necessarily believe in pre-destined fate, but if this stuff is going to come true, then at least we should be prepared for it by understanding the situation."

If you are a Christian you need to get up to speed quick, if you are not understanding this will make no difference because to understand means you have to be filled with the Holy Ghost and be 'born again' from above. Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection has to mean everything to you.

reply to post by lastday

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Do I appear to be some God-fearing Christian?

I follow politics. I am quite aware that some influential political figures are dispensationalists. This means that they believe in the prophecy of purgatory and are actively pursuing its invocation.

I don't really care about the religious side of the end days- It is the geopolitical realities that I take notice of. It is important to observe what can be considered modern crusades that are being carried out around Israel. How much longer before Russia and China get pulled in and fire envelops our blue sky?

The answer has to do with the ascension of one person who can directly influence global state of affairs.

And for your information, I grew up in a small and very Christian town in BC. I went to Sunday school a few times just to learn what religious indoctrination was all about.

lol It's good you're interested in this kind of stuff. But, Antichrist is a church and state conglomerate, the woman being the church part, and the beast being the political part (government of some sort). Here is a video that will explain it:

www.john1429.org...

reply to post by jeramie

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jeramie - your stuck on the the Catholic Church being the whore but it goes much deeper. The Catholic Church is a product of the Great Whore and part of 'Mystery Babylon the Great'. There is a much bigger whore, the Mother, who deserted God in the Old Testament. Jeremiah talks all about it. The Babylonian Mystery Religion comes from Egypt and Babylon. When Israel was in exile the Rabbis who set up synagogue, who incidentally never really left Babylon, inculcated the Babylonian Religion into Judaism in the form of the Talmud (Oral traditions which negated the Word of God) and Cabala Mysticism. Catholicism is nothing but a picture of the Babylonian Mystery celebration learned from the Jews who murdered Christ and had substituted the Babylonian religion and ceremonies that 'appeared' to be legitimate. Catholicism in outward form with and esoteric meaning for those who understand it..ie take the monstrance which is no more than sun worship. All of their ceremonies and garments mimic the old testament priest and temple rites, which is Christ at the Cross were completely done away with. The Jews who wished to subvert Christianity, these are the ones Paul and Jesus warned us about. They took over and merged with the pagan Babylonian religion and persecuted all who would not bow to the 'God' they had made for us, the Babylonian God. Isis, Horus and Set. Together Judeo-Christianity formed the abomination, the false prophet, Talmudic, Cabalistic, Zionistic, Judeo-Christian 'Babylonian Mystery Religion. But the 'MOTHER' OF IT ALL IS JUDAISM. Few Jews have yet to understand what Paul preached, the Hebrew Roots is a perfect example of a mess, still deceiving men. The two horns on the False Prophet are the nations, the Vatican and Israel. Both nations, the beast is the lion-bear-leopard of Europe and the False Prophet who exercises all the power of the first beast is the United States of America under on Babylonian mystery religion....Judeo-Christianity both pointing towards the Image they created to be worshiped.....Israel. Short work of a long story. True Christians are as rare as hens teeth, but garment cleaning time is coming!

reply to post by lastday

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Your envisioning of Europe as the lion-leopard-bear is most interesting. It is these connotations of what our geopolitical global societies are in aspect to the realization of prophecy that I am looking for.

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