I'm a muslim. I'm not violent/radical. Tell me I'm lying!

reply to post by trumpetthief1


Ok, I will be honest with you right now that to pursue a conversation about the flotilla incident with you will lead nowhere. I have my opinions, you have yours, and it appears neither of us will seriously consider of the other, as you think Israel is unmistakingly an oppresive, Nazi government, while the Palestinians suffer on par with the Jews who died in the holocaust, even despite the grocery stores, beaches, and overall freedom the Palestinians have, albeit with oppression from their own government - Hamas (like last year Hamas demolished 180 houses to build a religious center - yea, so, I think its prertty twisted that the palestinians - who are treated as concentration campers, on par with those sufferring under Chinese totalitarianism, or the refugees in Sudan, have allowed a government to demolish 180 of their fellow citizens houses. My piont is, living in Palestine is like living under a very politicized, dictatotorial regime: like in Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or even Jordan.

And as for those palestinians who were killed by palestinians being a skewed figure by the Israeli Government. Seriously man, you need to read up on the history of Middle East. There has been inner fighting between various factions of Palestinian militants since the 20s. Theres a very long history and REASON for why those figures - 1000 and 600, are not made up numbers, but actual figures for palestinians killed by Palestinians.

Read about the Black September conflict between the Hashomite Kingdom of Jordan and Palestinian Militants. Basically, it was two different groups of Arabs vying for control of the trans Jordan (before 1922 it was called Eastern Palestine). The current government in Jordan are from Saudia Arabia (the HedJaz), put there by the British. The Palestinian militants on the other hand had their own vision of a greater Palestinian state, including the regions they arleady controlled, and the TransJordan 2000 - 25,000 people were killed, significantly more than those killed in operation 'cast lead'

Lebanon Civil War which consisted of various Arab factions, PLO etc. A wopping 130,000–250,000 people were killed in this period. 1,000,000 wounded (half of whom were left with lifetime disability) And yet you talk about the foltilla incident!!! What the hell is wrong with that? Im not blaming you, but this over publication of the Israel/Palestine issue has grotesquely distorted the truth. These issues deserve attention. Why did the media spend 20 times the amoung of coverage on this, paltry issue compared to 250,000 Lebanese in one very small country, dead, leaving 1 million wounded and 500,000 disabled for life. THAT is a travesty. In comparison, if you look at the numbers, you have to be insane not to concede that the Israel/palestine issue is blown completely out of proportion.

And as for the settlement issues. That is the most tragic thing of all. Those people settling in Judea and Samaria (the most Jewish of Israeli regions. This was the ancient kingdom of JUDEA! for christs sake) you would probably find alot in commin with. They are peaceful, YOUNG, 16-21 year olds most of them, and theyre idealistic and religious and they just want to live in the biblical land of Israel which G-d promised them. They employ only non violent methods of protest. They live in horrendous conditions most of them. Living in tents, eating limited food, and spending most of their days trying to develop the land. To work the land and apply other technologies to make it serviceable. And these are MILITANTS?! This is what the media says! And the ones kicking them out arent the Arabs, but the IDF who are using the same brutal tactics people complain that they use against the palestinians. But when it happens to religous Jews (the Settlers) you can barely hear a whisper. No one knows a thing about it,, so therefore, it doesnt exist. Which is why again the media dedicates so much coverage to the Palestine/Israel issue. It is considered the greatest humans right issue today, not because it actually is, but because they WANT YOU TO THINK it is.

I dont personally support the government of Israel, because like all nations they are corrupt. But I definitely am a zionist and completely supportive of the right of the Jewish people, A nation in themselves, with their own language and distinct culture, to have the inalienable right to settle in their ancient and spiritual homeland and delcare themselves a state. The Arabs have 22 of them. They dont need another at the expense of the Jews having their own, in their own historical homeland.

reply to post by dontreally


Don't put words in my mouth. I did not make a single Nazi comparison. I do not believe in the Zionist conspiracy either. Just speaking off facts, I am saying that Israel has been an aggressor. That does not absolve the actions of Hamas. This is not black and white, there are two sides at fault- but to say that Israel hasn't been the one with more power, and caused more deaths, is just ignorant.

But I am willing to accept more fault for Palestine than previous, thanks to the links. I will read those, and I thank you for keeping a level headed conversation with actual points.

Click here for more information.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by trumpetthief1


I really don't care if you believe me or not, I am married to a Muslim. Maybe it's hard for you to believe because you are Muslim? What do I want to be done? I'm not asking your father to speak out, but the Islamic leaders. Instead of justifying these acts they need to condemn them. Your father speaking out isn't really going to do anything. Its up to the people of the religion to reject the garbage spewed from their leaders.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

The second the American Muslim community begins to slap the Wahabi's and other nut jobs into submission there will be a huge bloodletting. I understand the silence, but I want to SEE the courage of conviction.

I guess it will happen when the majority of Christians will slap and prosecute Christian Bush who led illegal war on Iraq and his whole administration. So do you have galls to prosecute Bush? What have you done to prosecute Bush and his lying cronies? What have you done regarding the illegal wars and killing of millions of innocent people in illegal wars? All you have accomplished is harping about thousand year old book, a religion and their priest/ god...whatever, what else have you done beside this? A big Nothing.

Where's you're responsibility in teaching the *snip* administrations after administrations to not interfere in other countries and invade them.

What you are asking will definitely happen if USA stops intervening in M.E and remove it's bases from Saudi Arabia and other M.E countries. It's the American foreign policies which are fueling terrorism and hate. If you can't do anything about it don''t expect anyone else to do anything about it either.

reply to post by craig732


Seriously, that is from old testament. You do understand why it's called old testament dont you?

There's a lot of violence at the root of many of the religions today, especially the western ones. But at the core of each of these religions is LOVE, not hate. I'm not a muslim but i am extremely tired of people attacking what they do not understand.

Islam is a religion of peace and love. It's the extremists that twist and distort its message to suit their cause.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by arollingstone

 

Ok, first of all, there are plenty of cartoons taken straight out of PA newspapers, clips from PA national television that completely destroys your contention that Israel is 'making this up'. No, buddy. Youre right about one thing though: Propaganda. As in Arab world propaganda.

I hardly wanted to touch upon this, but you want to talk about Arab propaganda? Don't make me laugh, Israel runs pretty much all international mainstream news and media networks! How about the reference to settlements as 'communitities' and the obsession with promoting the idea that Israel is 'defending itself' when in reality, they're the agressors. Talk about double-think!

Man, you're boring. You totally ignored every other point I made, this was the most insignificant one. The propaganda appears anti-Jewish, but its more anti-Zionist seeing as it satirises the Zionist belief that Israel belongs to the Jews 'cuz Abe said so'. The Statue of liberty holding the menorah is pretty clever actually lol.

The star of David is on the Israeli flag, that dragon represents Israel whilst the lamb seems to represent Lebanon since it's got the tree from their flag on it. Not a Jew reference that one.

The stereotypical Jew caricatures are a bit much, but whatever man its better than keeping a nation on the brink of economic and social collapse in order to radicalise the masses, and thereafter have an excuse for the oppressive, illegal and inhumane treatment of an entire nationality - isn't it?

reply to post by dontreally


So what if there would be no borders and religious leaders be informed as to not provoke the uneducated into hostile motives and a unified democratic body to govern both cultures without a distinction of religion and history as a tool manipulation ?

Would that be plausible and if so, how well would the social structure of both sides handle 60+ years of programing that the other is far more evil than us ?

reply to post by arollingstone


You lost the argument buddy.

The Palestinian masses dont know the difference between zionism and Jews, or Judaism, from Zionism. If they make reference to Judaism, than they are ATTACKING JUDAISM. , and when they see a Jew swallowing the Dome of the Rock, it doesnt inspire anti-zionism, but anti-Judaism. It is typical and ancient, anti-semitism. Which is why 9/10 palestinians still believes the blood libel.

And why should the historicity of the Jewish people in Israel be a subject of satire? Whats funny is the first point in the PLO charter that the Palestinian people "have a material, spiritual, and historical" relationship to the land of Palestine. What nonsense. Anyone who has read a thing about the history of "Palestine", which is a name rehashed by the British commemorating the Roman ressurection of the long defunct "Philistines", the biblical enemy of the Jews, as a way to spite the Jews, knows that this land has been desolate for hundreds of years. Various peoples have lived in this region. Greeks, Circassians, Turks, Kurds, its the HOLY LAND, holy mainly and mostly to Jews and Christians (Islam relegates this land to 3rd, behind Mecca and Medina, in the hedjaz).
Most Palestinians today are descendants of Syrians, and Arabs from Lebanon, Jordan, the Hedjaz, Egypt, Algeria, and elsewhere. The 1917 population of Arabs in Jewish settled areas of western palestine was 96,000. By 1947, this number ballooned to 420,000. The growth was unprecedented at 400%, while neighboring Arab countries had moderate growths of 30-50%. This was undoubtedly, and even admitted in the Hope Simpson report of 1931, the result of unchecked illegal immigration. A syrian official in 1933 said "in 3 months alone, over 30,000 hurani moved to palestine". The jewish investment in the Jewish settled areas was creating jobs, jobs intended for JEWISH immigration from countries where Jews were being persecuted (Russia, Poland especially). Instead, as the Hope simpson report said the unmitigated immigration into Palestine that took Jobs that were prepared was "an injustice to the Jew". Because of this illegal immigration which the British allowed and enabled, the 'labor quota' was filled, and Jews prevented from immigrating to those Jewish settled areas.

So much for history being on your side. Should i also mention those many riots and massacres committed by Palestinian Arabs against Jews before 1948?

You cannot go anywhere in "palestine" and not find Hebrew graves, synagogues (in 1967, Jordan indiscriminately, and without UN condemnation, destroyed 200 synagogues in the old city of Jerusalem) ancient Tombs, and Holy sites like the cave of the patriarchs, Tomb of Rachel, Tomb of Joseph (which was desecrated a few years back, agan without international condemnation)

Also, look at my last post. The purpose of that post was to put the Israel/Palestine issue into perspective. It recieves 20 times the attention than either the Lebanon civil war (which left 250,000 dead, one of the factions in the fighting was the PLO) or Black September get, despite the fact that Palestinian fighters were involved. Wheres the fairness in the reporting? Its nonexistence. Your argument is pitiful, and frankly im beginning to think youre one of those spread false information types.

reply to post by tristar


HAHA. Im sorry. A democracy, in the middle east? So, the Islamism, and Caliphate aspirations in other Arab countries, is no longer existant? Are you people this seriously disillusioned?

Islam and Democracy are incompatible. They are theologically incompatible. Sharia law, and democracy is like fish and chocolate (a very disgusting combination). It is either Sharia Law, or democracy. A nation that imposes both is a nation that is a dioctatorship, yet insisting themselves to be a democracy.

Israel on the other hand is an actual democracy, or atleast has the base to produce such a society.

Cool, we're getting into that whole "if you read/subscribe to a certain holy book, that means you accept and subscribe to the most extreme of its translations."

Awesome, now I get to quote www.evilbible.com...!

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Judges 5:30 NAB

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)



You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Well, that's all I got for now, but there's plenty more!

There you have it, if you don't believe all of these quotes to be right and true, then you are not Christian, according to previous posters.

Rock on!

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by tristar

 

HAHA. Im sorry. A democracy, in the middle east? So, the Islamism, and Caliphate aspirations in other Arab countries, is no longer existant? Are you people this seriously disillusioned?

Islam and Democracy are incompatible. They are theologically incompatible. Sharia law, and democracy is like fish and chocolate (a very disgusting combination). It is either Sharia Law, or democracy. A nation that imposes both is a nation that is a dioctatorship, yet insisting themselves to be a democracy.

Israel on the other hand is an actual democracy, or atleast has the base to produce such a society.

Funny you should point that out and perhaps other viewers could also see what i am about to type below.

So those who have a different belief system are in no way compatible to each other purely based on religion that was written at a day and age when a ball point pen was non existent. Yet, now, in the year 2011 we have astronauts or cosmonauts living and coexisting in an orbital space station and their so called religion is put aside for the sole purpose of exploration and the human evolution. Do you see how stupid but very effective it is to implant the notion of religion when dealing with superficial or ideological theories rather than a practical approach to the human evolution and its perplex problem of how can one human live with another human without dragging its insignificant theories into a practical world.

Right..so at which direction should i point my finger and say, " deny ignorance "

Don't worry about a few closed minded people OP. We know the media is just trying to make us hate other people.

Troy

Originally posted by I AM LEGION

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

The second the American Muslim community begins to slap the Wahabi's and other nut jobs into submission there will be a huge bloodletting. I understand the silence, but I want to SEE the courage of conviction.

I guess it will happen when the majority of Christians will slap and prosecute Christian Bush who led illegal war on Iraq and his whole administration. So do you have galls to prosecute Bush? What have you done to prosecute Bush and his lying cronies? What have you done regarding the illegal wars and killing of millions of innocent people in illegal wars? All you have accomplished is harping about thousand year old book, a religion and their priest/ god...whatever, what else have you done beside this? A big Nothing.

Where's you're responsibility in teaching the #ty administrations after administrations to not interfere in other countries and invade them.

Are you kidding me? It isn't the responsibility of Christians to teach and implement politics, I thought people wanted separation of church and state...They didn't go to war to protect Christianity they went to war to protect America. And last I checked the US army is comprised of all religions they don't march for God they march for the American way of life. Of course they were lied to about the war but it's not like all Christians were behind closed doors saying "Stupid other religions bought our war". Christians were lied to as well, and many still haven't even figured it out yet!

So you sit there in your ignorant bubble thinking Christians should persecute Christians but that isn't how it works. There is supposed to be agencies in place that are supposed to persecute people like Bush but they have been bought out a long time ago, and I don't think the onus is on Christians to make the persecution I think it is on the agencies.

reply to post by unitedstatesoftheinternet


Funny you should quote all those without providing much information as to who they were said to. The Old Testament was made for Israelite's, not Christians. Many of the covenant's were also made with Israelites who were Jewish, so Christian's don't have to follow the same path.

It is funny when I see people point out these quotes but fail to even mention who is supposed to follow the laws, you know why? I try not to set the record straight because people are arrogant. They want to be right and I don't care if people talk before they think.

So to set the record straight, the Jews entered into a covenant with God, not the Christians. That is like someone from Iraq has to follow the American constitution while in China, it doesn't make sense.

You know what,

Can't we all just admit the history of both religions is violent, the history of mankind is despicable, and the future is looking quite dim after reading through the post.

Just say it, dang a lot of our forefathers screwed up,

It is called Taqqia-In the Koran it is permissible by Allah to Lie to infidels if it advances Islam so yes -You ARE Lying! Islam is a Pagan cult of Death! It should be fought against at ALL costs! It is US or Them & Muslims look at US the same way so rout them out of your lands Or learn to love Shariah those are your choices!