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We Hold These Truths to be Self Evident

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posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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I have long held that there are self evident truths. That all men are created equal to name the first one to come to mind.(I wonder why that is huh?). This is certainly something that I have wanted to believe, that all men(meaning all humans) are created equal and that this is a self evident truth. For that matter I have spent a fair portion of my life trying to understand our human condition with this premise always in mind.

The evident truths that I have used in my life I believed led me to other evident truths. There was this evident belief on my part that once enough of these evident truths had been collected, from inside as well as outside my own thinking processes, I would be able to form a coherent philosophy which would, being composed of self evident truths, be self evident to others. Good for me, I'm such a good person. Terry, wake up.

But how about if there are no self evident truths.

There are any number of truths which people take for granted but which are already within the established memetic systems that have developed through our history and their self evident nature exists only as they form a factor in an equation that we accept as axiomatic. Attempting to enlighten someone, or to present self evident truth, who is clearly chugging along in another memetic system I now think is folly.

I do not care for preaching to the choir. But more and more I am beginning to think that it is only the choir that is listening. And as a card carrying member of the choir of Openness and Listening to Opposing Points of View, I am finding it more and more difficult to listen to other peoples preachers.

This then leads me to think that either I am becoming closed minded or maybe just maybe my old hope of self evident truths bringing this world together is hopeless.

So how do we find and develop a larger context where all our diverging and not so self evident truths can get along.

I wish I could express this more fully but it's all I can come up with for now.




posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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I don't think they are self-evident at all. It just means that "fror the sake of argument, we're going to agree on a few things, and here's what they are." Here's one: We can all agree that this thread has nothing to do with aliens & ufos, therefore why is it here?



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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My bad. I was reading along n this forum when this thought came to me and it being my first original post I just started writing. Inexperiene. If a moderator or some one Wants to move it to a more appropriate location that would be fine by me. Thanks



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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All men are created equal . Self Evident as proclaimed by God himself but humans read more evidence than there actually is . God said , all are 'created' equal , but he never said they ended up that way . The life of a totally innocent 15 year old girl who has done nothing wrong is not equal to the life of a scum sucking crack dealer who sends a bullet down the street and into her lower spine . She's worth infinately more . God made allowance for serious punishment of serious misbehavior so although it is self evident that we were all created equal , that's where the self evidence ends . Most will become beautiful human beings , our brothers and sisters but we are under no obligation to understand and make excuses and allowances for the ones who become of lesser value .



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:50 PM
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There are moral maxims that are nearly uniform throughout time and country. These might be among your self-evident truths. Sometimes they are called "The Natural Law." Some examples would be:

Humanity ought to be preserved.
Special duties to parents and elders.
Special duties to wife and children.
Duties of good-faith and veracity.
and several more.

But as Kant wrote about categorical imperatives, unless you assume right at the start that there are ethical rules, no logical argument can create them.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by TerryMcGuire
 


interesting food to ponder. Although i dont have anything to add at 5am in the morning (here) i think it will give me some thought juice for the day. Also i dont think you are becomming closed minded, mabey just some bouncing with other like minds would help stimulate the thoughts
looking forward to seeing what others have to say and add.
edit on 4-3-2011 by antinwochick because: Last comment directed wrong



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
I don't think they are self-evident at all. It just means that "fror the sake of argument, we're going to agree on a few things, and here's what they are." Here's one: We can all agree that this thread has nothing to do with aliens & ufos, therefore why is it here?


Maybe because he feels like he is an alien in this world.
I know I do....and I have more or less the same problem Terry has.

Because I've lived for a long time in my small world of kids and a few friends, I haven't noticed this till I was more or less 40.

Th each year I felt more and more alone.

So now I'm back to my small world.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by TerryMcGuire
My bad. I was reading along n this forum when this thought came to me and it being my first original post I just started writing. Inexperiene. If a moderator or some one Wants to move it to a more appropriate location that would be fine by me. Thanks


Yeah, probably belongs in "Introductions" instead of "Aliens and UFO's".
but, welcome aboard newbie!



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by TerryMcGuire
I have long held that there are self evident truths. That all men are created equal to name the first one to come to mind.(I wonder why that is huh?). This is certainly something that I have wanted to believe, that all men(meaning all humans) are created equal and that this is a self evident truth. For that matter I have spent a fair portion of my life trying to understand our human condition with this premise always in mind.

The evident truths that I have used in my life I believed led me to other evident truths. There was this evident belief on my part that once enough of these evident truths had been collected, from inside as well as outside my own thinking processes, I would be able to form a coherent philosophy which would, being composed of self evident truths, be self evident to others. Good for me, I'm such a good person. Terry, wake up.

But how about if there are no self evident truths.

There are any number of truths which people take for granted but which are already within the established memetic systems that have developed through our history and their self evident nature exists only as they form a factor in an equation that we accept as axiomatic. Attempting to enlighten someone, or to present self evident truth, who is clearly chugging along in another memetic system I now think is folly.

I do not care for preaching to the choir. But more and more I am beginning to think that it is only the choir that is listening. And as a card carrying member of the choir of Openness and Listening to Opposing Points of View, I am finding it more and more difficult to listen to other peoples preachers.

This then leads me to think that either I am becoming closed minded or maybe just maybe my old hope of self evident truths bringing this world together is hopeless.

So how do we find and develop a larger context where all our diverging and not so self evident truths can get along.

I wish I could express this more fully but it's all I can come up with for now.





I think this is what happens when we start growing up inside. When I was younger I wasn't afraid of being liberal. I had a lot of problems, to be sure. There're successful liberals and failing liberals, just like there're failing conservatives and successful conservatives. I was a failing liberal. But now I can't be liberal for 5 seconds without feeling guilty or shameful. I have two sides to my character now. I have hte side thatls a liberal and the side that's a conservative. They fight each other every day. I always feel split. I demolished the idea that there's self-evident truth years ago. I just don't believe it. You can't get everybody on the planet to hold hands for one reason. You can only get some people to do that, and the rest you force through threats and fear. That's what always happens. If they can't take it anymore they protest or something or they just give up on life.

Lately I've been thinking that this existence is a lot like prison. There's no way out. We're trapped in this body and this life. The only way out is to end our existence. There's several times more non-human DNA in our body than human DNA. This means we're essentially slaves to something that's not even human. It's hard to call it cooperative because there's so much more non-human DNA. It's synergistic, I'd say, but maybe we're not nearly as human as we once thought. And since there's no way out, then it makes sense to say that this is some kind of prison where we're slaves to the constantly changing cosmic ocean. Of course, I say all this with tongue in cheek, but it still makes a lot of sense to me. I don't care whether it makes sense to others or not. It might be self evident to me, but like I said before, ideas are a dime a dozen and everyone has them.

I think a lot about aging and death and I've come to a conclusion that I am a very weak person. I just have no guts. I'm a coward. This world scares me. I was not made for this world. I get weak kneed about small things. The only reason evolution works and that the human species survives is because people are tough enough to keep going despite the reality around them. Perhaps religion and beliefs and ego are required to keep things going. I often think about this. I think they're needed. Without them we'd struggle just to get through a single day.

I'm living proof, in my mind. I used to be a christian. Now I am alone. There's no god. I don't believe in an after-life. Everything is temporary. Not a single thing is permanent. Everything we do is vain. It's a dismal outlook on live and hard to share with others because even I think it borders on depressing. It's a shadow of my former beliefs. And make no mistake, it's a belief. I BELIEVE there's no after life based on Occams Razor. This is used in science. The simplest explanation is most likely. It discards things that're not needed. So a natural explanation is probably more likely. In other words, when we die we our consciousness fades until there's nothing and the materials that constitute our body get reabsorbed into the earth. That explanation is much simpler than those that involve a god or spirit or other such things that're not understood.

But it's still a very sad belief. Everyone that has died is DEAD. We'll never see them again.

But that doesn't mean it's purposeless. Investing in society is more important than investing in yourself because society will outlive you. We cannot live forever so it's pointless to pin all your pursuits on youth. When we base our satisfaction on how strong or how beautiful we're we automatically compromise ourselves. Youth doesn't last for more than a decade or two. It's a snapshot in our lives. It's nothing. It's gone in a flash. We have to find satisfaction in something that lasts or we're never going to be happy. And even then, nothing we invest in is going to last forever. Even our civilization will probably die at some point since history shows that civilizations never last very long. Ultimately, I can only hope that investing ourselves in society or the pursuit of universal knowledge (the sciences) is enough and the reason I say that is because even these are temporary.

But that's just me trying to be optimistic. As I said, this belief is a joke compared to the one I had when I was a christian. When I was a christian there was a reason for things and there was an after life. It was better. I grew out of it, sadly. It's like hte magic and splender of youth. I grew out of that too. But I yearn for it... and sometimes hope that maybe I haven't grown up at all.

I wish I could be more uplifting. I'm a very sad pitiful creature. It seems that when I look at reality I mostly only have negative things to say to others. The positive things I have to say usually go unheard or unrecognized or misunderstood. I love some of hte sciences and get excited about them. I love how there're other stars in the universe and we can see them and that's incredible to me. I get excited about some things that a grown up probably shouldn't get so excited about. Not all of me has grown up if hte measure of maturity is whether you get excited and giggly or not. I just wish I got excited about things that normal productive people do. So far I don't. I'm not productive and the things they get excited about make me bored. For example I don't get excited about helping poor people because to me poverty is more complcated than that. It's the product of a lot of things, not whether or not I try to help a poor person. I thin it's good to help poor people, but poverty won't go away until we can solve the source of the problem not the branches that come out of it.

I think the better way to look at maturity is that some parts of us grow up while other parts don't.
edit on 5-3-2011 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 06:45 AM
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Originally posted by schuyler
I don't think they are self-evident at all. It just means that "fror the sake of argument, we're going to agree on a few things, and here's what they are." Here's one: We can all agree that this thread has nothing to do with aliens & ufos, therefore why is it here?
Is it self-evident that there're UFOs?

Some people would swear that it is.

And just as many would swear that there's a god and that no mass can go faster than light. But what if god is indifferent and doesn't get involved with the universe. Maybe he just sits back and creates new universes over and over and laughs to himself about what he sees but does nothing more. He may as well not exist in terms of our perspective, right? What if we can go faster than the speed of light by twisting space/time, thus avoiding altogether the rules that forbid it?

Can we live in a universe where god both exists and doesn't at the same time?

I can understand this seeming off topic. It probably is. But I really don't care whether the OP is or isn't. It just seems so academic to me.
edit on 5-3-2011 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by jonnywhite
 


I know this thought. About this being a prison. Like you I also was a Christian when I was younger. I crawled out of it because it was to limiting for me. I say crawled because it was not easy.almost like I had to dig a tunnel to get out. Like a prison.

Religions are memetic systems, belief systems. Closed, self contained and ridged collections of ideas which run through our mental structure controling our thinking like a set of railroad tracks do for a train. Which is ok as long as one wants to go where the tracks are running. No prob.

Unlike you I still believe in God. Or rather again. It's kinda like I am finding God. But this time I get to assemble my own understanding. One thing I think is that God let's us think what ever we want to think and in doing so we set up our own railroad tracks. Even an off road 4wheeler can use a little path at times. But I get side tracked.

Yeah, I too considered this place as a prison. That we were all sent here to live out our terms ,life after life until we cleaned up our acts. Man that period was depressing. But then I remembered that this was just another thought system I had stumbled across,or made up, another set of railroad tracks and now I keep it safely tucked away in my collection of ways we can view reality drawer.



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by TerryMcGuire

But how about if there are no self evident truths.


So how do we find and develop a larger context where all our diverging and not so self evident truths can get along.



You find this only in yourself. Simply by standing unflinching before hate, violence and all the ills in this sick world you defeat any and all who would perpetrate these things. Though you may die in so doing, you will have also lived as so few have truly lived. The dream is that the example you set will spark that fire in others and that your brothers and sisters will rise and stand with you.

We can see this happening right now in some of the most oppressed places in the world. It is possible. It is real. It is true.



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by notsosunny
 


An alien? Maybe. I guess psychologists would simply say we are alienated. Feeling set apart from others. I guess so but look at this world. It's not as if it's all one big rosy love fest and we are a few loners hanging out on the edges of the party, to shy or afraid to join the Real people. The Real people we see on screen dancing and playing and having a good time which we can have too if we just buy brand X. I don't think it's necessarily bad to feel alienated or alone. I mean I guess it could be but it dosent have to be.

I may be an alien. And you may be a alien. I spent several years in a chat room set up for people who believed themselves to be. I however took the position that I wasn't. That I was an earthling who had woken up to the idea that there might be Wanderers (souls which have originated on other planets or other planes who are now incarnated here for one or many lifetimes). Most of them thought that this was their last incarnation as humans and that the reason that this was so is because humans have reached the limits of our growth here and it is time to move on and that they are here to assist.

For now I am looking at the idea that some alienation may just be the loosening to our bonds with the present paradigm. That things are changing rapidly and that to hang onto the old systems and thoughts about being will only hinder us in our ability to comprehend and face the future as it presents itself to us.



posted on Mar, 5 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by iforget
 


That is a good dream. That is a strong dream. It is a dream that can bring us to life. Thank you.




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