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Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering aka "Chemtrails" DEBUNK THIS !!!!

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posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Hi WW,

You can see where djcarlosa is confused. He truly believes that the only aircraft using this Upper Air Route are the Heathrow-Dublin flights.

flightaware.com...

This he stated in the following post.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


The only thing I can do is say which route flies over my house which is the Heathrow to Dublin route its the only one which goes over where I live.


TJ




posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


How do you know there were no planes? What equipment were you using to identify a/c?

If it was just your Mk 1 eyeball then you'd have to have a pretty good one to actually see an aircraft at 30,000+ feet......



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by tommyjo
reply to post by weedwhacker
 




OK! Better info, I can sink my teeth into, thanks! (EGLL to EIDW. Of course, that ONE route, just between those TWO cities, is travelled both ways, yes?? But, of course, other flights can be routed there as well)...


Let's see....flight plan routings....oh? FlightAware doesn't have the flight plans for UK/Europe, as they do for US flights. Makes it more difficult.... STANDBY ONE.....

I see the confusion, now. Wales is SouthWest England, yes....? West and slightly North from London, on a path form London to Dublin.

Well...first of all.....the link I showed, earlier....has a LOT of mssing info, as you can see....like the entire ATS over Ireland. The Upper Routes that all "point" to the Cork VOR (CRK), for example.

ALSO.....dozens and dozens of trans-atlantic flights are crossing over Ireland, enroute to the UK, and Europe, and farther East....

The CRK VOR, and Dublin too (DUB) and many others are "anchor" points, for the Oceanic crossing....those are called the "NAT Tracks" (North Atlantic Tracks). Other "anchors" or various fixes, defined Lat/Long positions....

Here, I have posted this link, in older ATS threads....it came up when I "Googled", as an ATS-reference!!!:



All of those black triangles, labeled with five-letter "names" off the coasts of Ireland and the UK are various spots that begin the Oceanic crossing routes....which vary day-to-day, twice a day...to take advantage of prevailing winds.

I could explain more.....I DID in those other ATS threads...hey, wait....I bet ya I can find links....YES! Google found this, and here's my old post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adding: For flights that are either heading to the Oceanic Routes Westbound, or are inbound FROM the West......they do NOT have to follow any of the defined ATS routes....it is that way in the UK, Europe....the USA, and everywhere! Flights are routinely given "direct to" various points on their routes, to shave off dog legs, and cut corners to make it more "straight line"....when there is no conflicting traffic concern.

THIS explains the most likely reason that SOME flights our friend "doesn't" see on FlightRadar24 don't appear!!! THAT 'flight-tracker" is only looking at "DOMESTIC" flights....

I use the term "domestic" to apply to inter-UK, inter-UK/Ireland, inter-UK/Europe, etc.

OCEANIC flights might not be included in that particular "flight-tracker" software database....something to look into......
edit on 13 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by tommyjo
 


the point I'm making here is that last summer there where no planes flying in he directions you see in the vid I posted this is the change I have seen in the last 2 months i wish i could go back and take a vid of the sky last year around this time so you could see the difference there are no airports in the directions these planes are flying and to also point out that yes the Dublin route has alot of traffic and i see those planes going overhead and there contrails dissipate within 2-3 mins so why do these others last so long and create clouds so quickly ?


You are still making classic mistakes in your assumptions. Why do you think that the aircraft are not heading for airports? Look at the aeronautical charts supplied. They have to follow strict ATC procedure and follow waypoints and markers in order to reach their destination safely. UK skies are very busy and nobody wants an accident. You live under a busy transatlantic air route. This will give you a rough idea as to why and how airlines select the routes used.

en.wikipedia.org...

Weedwhacker will explain it a lot better than I can as he is an airline pilot.

Study the following. I can already see some people wailing and gnashing at the explanations contained within.


www.af.mil...

science-edu.larc.nasa.gov...

contrailscience.com...

TJ



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


my vision is perfect and as a child i wanted to join the RAF and spent alot of my time watching the sky looking for planes this has followed me through my life and still I like to watch the sky's.
This is why I know that the trails of the last 2 months are unlike those I've been seeing all my life.
So unless every plane has had an engine change in the last 2 months then these trails are not made by jet engines.
You can attack me try to make me look stupid or personally attack me if you wish but you won't get me to believe that what I am seeing is normal.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


my vision is perfect and as a child i wanted to join the RAF and spent alot of my time watching the sky looking for planes this has followed me through my life and still I like to watch the sky's.


I also have perfect vision - 6/6 - and I can't see an aircraft at 30,000 feet withotu magnification - are you saying you can??



This is why I know that the trails of the last 2 months are unlike those I've been seeing all my life.


Which is fine by me - as I said before, I don't doubt that you are seeing what you are seing.


So unless every plane has had an engine change in the last 2 months then these trails are not made by jet engines.


However this is a statement I take issue with - why is it that you leap immediately to such a radical conclusion?

A lot of people say "the skies were never like this", or words to that effect.

But in practice it turns out that most people only started seeing "chemtrails" when they actually started looking for them - they dont' remember contrails from years ago for the simple reason that they were not looking for them - it is a phenoomena known as confirmation bias.

There is ample photographic and video and literary evidence that contrails have been around for decades.

Why do you choose to not believe it?


You can attack me try to make me look stupid or personally attack me if you wish but you won't get me to believe that what I am seeing is normal.


when did I attack you?

I certainly take issue with your conclusions, but I dont' know you, so what ahve I said or done that attacks you??

On the point of these being normal or not - here I do take issue.

Contrails ARE normal - but they are also artificial - I think sometimes people use the term "normal" imprecisely, and I think that is what you have done here.

If yuo take a bucket of hot moist air, and dump it at 30,000+ feet and appropriate temperatuer, pressure and humidity conditions, then you get a "contrail" from the air in that bucket - that is normal - it doesn't matter where the air comes from - that is what physics makes happen.

However it is also clearly artificial in that all these contrails are being created by aircraft - and that is not "natural" - it is man-made.

And very possibly it is also affecting the climate! But it is doing so by making more clouds - barium, aluminium, whatever else, are not required! there is also scientific evidence about this that you can look up without too much bother.

so to summarise - I take issue with the conclusions you come to - I think you have nowhere near enough evidence to show that contrails are not made by jet engines. you can claim it all you like....but you're always going to be asked what is your evidence, and you need somethign better than "I saw..." sorry.

FYI - here's some photos that are pretty spectacular - appropos of nothing in particular

Skystefs contrail photos - lots of crystal clear photos - check out the rig he uses linked from thsi page.

And a few from Flickr -

Air China over St Petersburg – www.flickr.com...

over siberia – www.flickr.com...

and this one covers both bases – Air China over Siberia – www.flickr.com...



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Why don't you think jet engines can form persistent contrails?

This is what is looks like to crews flying those routes. The aircraft are separated by Air Traffic Control as they use the air routes.



I served in the RAF and before that the Royal Observer Corps. I served in the RAF from 1985 to 2007 and the Royal Observer Corps between 1981 to 1984. I've seen a lot in the skies in that time. All you are seeing is modern fuel efficient engines producing water vapour. As the hot exhaust gases cool in the surrounding air they may, depending on temperature and humidity, at that specific altitude form a contrail. That contrail can be persistent or non-persistent.

Even piston engined aircraft can produce contrails at altitude if the conditions are right.



The above footage is from WW2 era P-51 Mustangs still flying today as private owned warbirds. This is no different as to what the WW2 pilots experienced flying routes over Europe.

TJ



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Maybe this may clear the confusion you maybe having i had not even heard about chem trails until I went looking on the internet for a reason why the plane trails had changed in the sky in the last 2 months.
So unlike most who you can use that argument with it dose not apply to me.
That also might help prove my point that what I see is so strange that it made me look for a reason for it.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Contrail footage during WW2.

B-17 Flying Fortress during WW2.



Contrail footage over Belgium in WW2.



At around 06:08 see footage of persistent contrails filmed during the Battle of the Bulge.



TJ

edit on 13-3-2011 by tommyjo because: Malformed vid link corrected



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


OK....more.....about the flights that MAY overfly the "contested" area of WALES (per one ATS member who posted recently).

I went to FlightAware and pulled up the flight plan routing of something I am VERY familiar with....EGLL-KEWR. (London Heathrow UK, to Newark, NJ USA) on Continental flight# 19.

HERE is the filed ATC flight plan:


CPT UL9 KENET UN14 PEMOB UN24 SLANY MALOT 5300N 02000W 5200N 03000W 4900N 04000W 4600N 05000W URTAK BANCS N72B KANNI BOS


OK...decoding....

"CPT" is the 'Compton' VOR, then Upper Lima 9 to KENET, Upper November 14 to PEMOB, Upper November 24 to SLANY....(direct)....MALOT.....thence, the NAT Track Lat/Long routes:

53N/20W
52N/30W
49N/40W
46N/50W

After 50W, to URTAK, then direct to BANCS, and then "N72B" is a coded routing we look up in a binder of pages that gets regular updated revisions....then KANNI, and direct BOS (the Boston VOR) and after that, there are other published Arrival Procedures used....

My POINT is to go back to the portion of the flight plan, as it departs the UK.....follow along on the various links I've provided, and know that some intermediate "dogs legs" might be surpassed, when ATC offers more direct routing, via direct live radio contact, with the flight.

HERE is the actual ground track info, BTW, just for that one flight:

flightaware.com...

(Zoom in as needed, for greater detail.....). IN THAT example....the dashed blue line, over the ocean, represents the planned ground track. The green line is a bit deceptive.....it only shows the available radar plot info....of course, over the Atlantic, there is no radar tracking data. (Seems that Ireland, AND/OR "PrestWick Oceanic Control" is/are NOT onboard and sharing some data, either....as you can see by the point where the green line defaults, is about the spot where you get "handed off" by radio to Ireland, and later to PrestWick...then, the FlightAware just drew a direct "bee line" to the next radar spot, over by Canada.....).



edit on 13 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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I watched a TV program recently that was about a top secret project where the government sprayed vast amounts of chemicals from planes on Wiltshire to see what effects a biological attack would have on a population here is the link to it watch it and then tell me that chem trails are a hoax.
video.google.com...#
I hope that this may get you to see that it has happened before why wouldn't it be happening again.



posted on Mar, 13 2011 @ 07:18 PM
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herereply to post by djcarlosa
 



The video is well known, and is the programme now. the video was not of the trials over the public - it was of a trial to check out whether spraying would work or not.

Trials were done in 1957 and 1959 each time useing a couple of hundred pounds of the "fine particle" - 3reports are summarised here for a total of 561 lbs of material.

3 more reports are sumamrised here - 1 from an aircraft, 1 from ship, and 1 from a landrover. the a/c sprayed 279 lbs.


In 1963 they used a Devon a/c to spray 150 lbs over Norwich - here are the results of that one

And in 1964 the programme proposed to use 120 lbs and proposed 10 sprays over Norwich - see this pdf report of the method they proposed to use.

All these pdf's, a few others, information on other tests, some commentary and the video are available at www.nr23.net...

And while they are evidence of a secret programme that involves aircraft and spraying, there is no resemblance to the modern chemtrail theory, and they are simply not proof except for the fact that these thigns did happen back in teh 1950's 60's and 70's.

As I say - I have no problem with you asking "what's changed?" - but IMO what has changed is probably that you are now paying a lot more attention to teh sky than you used to, hence you aer seeing stuff that you never used to notice, and you are experiencing "confirmation bias".



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Again i say this sounding like a stuck record i spend more time looking up into the sky than most people and as a keen sunbather lying on my back looking up into the sky all last summer watching the planes go over this is why i noticed the difference in the trails in the first place.



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 

You say that it seems to you that there are more trails in your local skies now than just 2 years ago.

Let's stipulate that what you say is true...Perhaps the recent increase in persistent contrails you say you have noticed is due to a change in weather patterns in your part of the world. Certain weather patterns are known to persist and prevail for years in some parts of the world ("El Nino" in the Pacific Ocean, some areas undergoing years of drought, etc.), so perhaps there is a weather pattern that has prevailed in your area for the past couple of years that is more conducive to allowing for persistent contrails.

I'm no weather expert, but if ATS members "Essan" or "Oz Weatherman" are reading this, is it possible for there to be a changing weather pattern in djcarlosa's part of the world that is persisting for a couple of years (something like the way "El Niños" can persist for years in the Pacific for five years at a time).



edit on 3/14/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

I'm no weather expert, but if ATS members "Essan" or "Oz Weatherman" are reading this, is it possible for there to be a changing weather pattern in djcarlosa's part of the world that is persisting for a couple of years


I can do better than that mate
djcarlosa lives not far from me - close enough that most of the contrails/chemtrails I see he can see and vice versa. And I've not noticed any increase in the past 2 years. My ATS photo-library Contrailcentral contains plenty of pictures taken before then.



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

I'm no weather expert, but if ATS members "Essan" or "Oz Weatherman" are reading this, is it possible for there to be a changing weather pattern in djcarlosa's part of the world that is persisting for a couple of years


I can do better than that mate
djcarlosa lives not far from me - close enough that most of the contrails/chemtrails I see he can see and vice versa. And I've not noticed any increase in the past 2 years. My ATS photo-library Contrailcentral contains plenty of pictures taken before then.


Thank you Essan
...

...But let's stipulate for the sake of argument that someone has truly noted an increase in persistent contrails over a 2 year period (I'm not saying this is necessarily true -- I'm just stipulating this for debate purposes). Is it possible for a weather pattern to prevail for several years that could cause more days to be conducive to persistent contrail creation -- such as a prevalence of drier air at altitude for a couple of years?

If so, then I suppose a more specific question would be: has your part (and/or djcarlosa's part) of the UK been stuck in such a weather pattern? It seems from your answer that perhaps not (at least not in the area around Evesham, UK).


edit on 3/14/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 

where are you getting 2 years from I've said the last 2 months in my area I have noticed the change in both trails and the routes in which the planes spraying them have changed perhaps if you read what I put in my posts before you start your pre emptive strikes on my intelligence and eyesight you wouldn't make such rash mistakes in how you quote me.
www.youtube.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...
Perhaps these 2 vids may help prove my point that what I'm seeing is true.
I will say here and now you can't blind me to the truth and the undertones to some who post reply's to me should know that I read between the lines well enough to know what they are implying.



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

...But let's stipulate for the sake of argument that someone has truly noted an increase in persistent contrails over a 2 year period (I'm not saying this is necessarily true -- I'm just stipulating this for debate purposes). Is it possible for a weather pattern to prevail for several years that could cause more days to be conducive to persistent contrail creation -- such as a prevalence of drier air at altitude for a couple of years?

If so, then I suppose a more specific question would be: has your part (and/or djcarlosa's part) of the UK been stuck in such a weather pattern? It seems from your answer that perhaps not (at least not in the area around Evesham, UK).


It's possible.

There has been a shift towards more meridional weather patterns over the past 3-4 years. This has led to drier, colder winters and cooler, wetter summers. We've also had a lot less in the way of thunderstorms with little in the way of warm, humid air coming up from the south.

I've not looked into it, but I would have expected, if anything, that with less frequent southwesterlies (which is normally the prevailing wind direction here) then conditions would if anything have been less conducive to contrail formation, especially in summer. Air might be a little colder, but also less humid.

Contrails often make for good summer sunsets and I will admit I've taken less of those over the last 2 or 3 years - though in part that's also because after a while, when you've seen a thousand photos of a contraily sunset, you've seen them all!
So I'd not offer that as evidence of less frequent contrails.

It is possible though that if they are occurring less frequently, especially in summer, then when they do occur they appear more noticeable. Whereas in the past we'd not have paid so much attention. And thus, ironically, the impression is that they are occurring more often .....

Or it may just be a case of red car syndrome.
edit on 14-3-2011 by Essan because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 

I've said the last 2 months in my area I have noticed the change in both trails and the routes in which the planes spraying them have changed


Sorry, but that's nonsense.

The flight paths over you are north-south and east-west just as they have always been. And there has certainly been no increase in contrails from 2 months ago - other than insofar as this month has been a bit sunnier than January was, so there's been more occasion when we've not had low cloud cover to obscure any contrails.



posted on Mar, 14 2011 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


I'm sorry -- bad memory. Two months, NOT two years.

If it's only two months, then I suppose it could definitely be a change in weather patterns -- that is to say that the air at the altitude the airliners are flying could be more conducive to persistent contrails over the past two months.

Perhaps prevailing conditions prior to two months ago were not conducive to trails persisting, but the conditions changed in the past two months.



edit on 3/14/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



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