Did Jesus kill?

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Then his followers come along and say, "Look! He died, now we can be as bad as we want, as long as he died for us ya know".

No, they certainly do not say that (well, not real followers, anyway.) Read Paul. Read James. Some Gnostics believed that sin was of no consequence, because it was only material sin, and spirituality was all that matters. But Paul and James both specifically called Christians out on this belief, because there were some believers who bought into it.

How can you have read the Epistles of Paul and not seen this?

Loving others and being a peacemaker is NOT a reasonable service of a Christian. It IS HIS COMMANDMENT!

Whoever said that it wasn't? But it's not what saves you -- no Christian believes that they are saved solely through their own works. Protestants believe that we are saved through faith, and faith alone, while Catholics believe that we are saved through faith, but not faith alone, your works count, too. Protestants respond that works are important for demonstrating that we do, in fact, have true faith.

If you reject Christ's salvation and believe that you will be saved on your own merits, you are free to do so, but the overall view (it differs, of course) is that you will be subject to judgement by the Law without being wrapped in the cloak of Christ's righteousness, and if you fail to live up to the Law of the First Covenant (which, technically, would be impossible for you, as you've said that you are not Jewish,) you are condemned.

Originally posted by adjensen
If Gnosticism is right, then Judaism is wrong, because two contradictory things cannot both be right (though they can, of course, both be wrong.) If Judaism is wrong, then Christ, as a Jew, is wrong, and being a follower of Christ has no more merit than being a follower of anyone who proclaims "be good to others". There's no point, in fact, of being a follower of anyone -- just be good to others and be done with it.

What an arrogant statement to make my friend. You are seriously in ere here. Do you not see what YOU are doing?

You are telling GOD how to speak to HIS children. You are telling HIM what tongue to use. Shame on you to think you can tell God how to manifest to his children. Shame on you for thinking you can tell God who IS his children. He gave One Law to his children because he loves them ALL. That Law is to love one another.

He told it to Muhammed and Muhammed told it to his people. Thus the Arab people were united. He told it to the Jews, and the Jewish people were united. He told it to the people in the Americas, the aboriginals of Australia, he tells it to the Wiccans and the Pagans, and everywhere he tells it, a people are united.

The problem is the children do not understand God's voice. They think it comes from outside them so they cling to culture and their own voice. Little do they understand that the voice that united them always comes from inside. When a culture loves one another, it becomes strong and grows.

Now we are competing cultures all trying to win the fathers attention and favor. We are all fighting over a father who loves us all.

Shame on you.

Originally posted by adjensen
If you believe that your own good works are sufficient for your own salvation, as you seem to, then what's the point of claiming to be Christ's follower, since you're preaching a message that he clearly refuted?

Works have nothing to do with it my friend. Works, are nothing. It always is, and always will be motive.

My motive comes straight from the heart. I genuinely weep everyday for the silliness we have become. I have seen the various cultures around the world. I have been to the high and the low. I have seen the goodness that is in us all.

What seperates us is the illusions we have allowed to come up between us. Religion, culture, race, sex, wealth, intellect, the list is endless the amount of walls we have put up. Yet, in our core we all want the same thing. We want the kingdom of Heaven, Nirvana, the state of existence where there is no want.

Can't you see that if we put our defences down, tore down those walls, we could make this place the heaven that we all imagine. We have to come out of our tombs and be born again. We have to not look for idols, but look within for the Love in each of our own hearts. And LET IT OUT!

The second coming of Christ was three days after his death. It was in the spirit of those men who followed him. Each disciple did his best to perform Christ's work. Over time, they drifted further and further from the truth. Now the followers today have gone even further. Thus the church is shattered into many denominations and are weak.

The same happened in Islam, the same in Budhism, even the Pagan circles have become shattered.

It is time to get back to the truth. The plain simple truth that brought us all together into our various groups.

Love one another.

Nothing else needs to be said.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by NOTurTypical

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Well I would still have to say, any other gospel or teaching, that is not Unconditional Love and Peace, however I will also point out that there are many dark squares in the scriptures, and distortions. We need to pray for our sight to be healed as Yeshua instructed in the parable of the sower. For all instructions, even spiritual ones are blind and in darkness.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

That seems fairly convenient. Christ suffers because of the judgements of others.

You're a heretic. Christ didn't suffer because of the judgments of others. He freely gave His life for us sinners. that was His entire mission. To die in our place at the cross. Jesus HIMSELF says this, you should know this if you truly follow Him.

Christ teaches to love all.

NOT THE WOLVES! Christ told the wolves their father was not God, but the devil. Here are some quotes from Christ that you certainly haven't read before:

"(Jesus) answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.' " (Mark 4:11-12)

"But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness,
but is guilty of an everlasting sin." (Mark 3:29)

"Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You (Jesus) loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God (Jesus), your God (the Father) anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions"; (Heb. 1:8-9)

^ Messiah means = Anointed

Christ dies to show to love all.

Perhaps you should look at what He is going to do when He returns. I'll give you a hint, His raiment will be stained with blood. He was only the Lamb once. He never again will be the suffering servant.

Again, this should NOT be news to you.

Then his followers come along and say, "Look! He died, now we can be as bad as we want, as long as he died for us ya know".

Straw man. None of Christ's disciples taught this, you're lying. Paul's and Peter's epistles destroy that idea.

I have seen the light. Thank you for dieing for me Jesus, now excuse me, I have some raping, murdering, and pillaging to go do in your name. Thanks for taking one for the team!

No one here has claimed that, you're bearing false witness... a LIE.

Loving others and being a peacemaker is NOT a reasonable service of a Christian.

You're a liar. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service." Romans 12:1

It IS HIS COMMANDMENT!

You're twisting the words of Jesus Christ. He said to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself." Luke 10:27

Christ DID NOT end the command at "neighbor", He ended His command at "as YOURSELF". Myself, if I were believing a falsehood and teaching heresy I would HOPE and EXPECT a Christian to tell me I was wrong and rebuke me! Remember the Proverb:

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." Proverbs 9:8

Part of "LOVING" your neighbor is rebuking them when they are in error! It's not "love" to sit back and encourage them when they have a doctrine of demons that will ultimately get them condemned to Hell for eternity. Withholding the truth for the sake of affirming anyone's life without rebuking errors is NOT love, that's hatred. If you love someone you'll rebuke their errors.

reply to post by IAMIAM

Works have nothing to do with it my friend. Works, are nothing. It always is, and always will be motive.

Herein lies the one part of the Gospel of Thomas I had to pray over and took into sungazing. I had answers given that relate immediately to what you have posted above. The intent. In fact this is also metaphor, so as to hide the true meaning again, and I feel is one of the major distortions that some mystery schools who follow this stumble over.

www.gnosis.org...

14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

What came here to me is that he was pointing out that it was the intent of the heart and that those he was speaking to, they were the "you", meaning he knew their hearts.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're a heretic.

Funny, they said the same thing to Christ. If Christ was a heretic, I consider it an honor to be in his company.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Christ didn't suffer because of the judgments of others. He freely gave His life for us sinners. that was His entire mission. To die in our place at the cross. Jesus HIMSELF says this, you should know this if you truly follow Him.

He did not commit suicide. He had to be first judged by the Priesthood, then he was judged by the Government, and lastly, he was judged by his own followers.

Yes, his own followers sat back and watched it be done. They did not want to risk their lives in his defence. The story plainly shows them all denying him.

That WAS the Sin he died for, man's Judgement!!!!!!

Open your eyes and see what kind of world we have created by our inferior judgement.

Don't you think we could a little bit better than this if we worked together from the heart?

Isn't that what Christ was teaching?

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Wolves? Be like the sun, be warm and steadfast and shine your kindness on all, sheep and wolves, every man, woman and child, and shine your light.

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.
---Luke 19:10

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
---Romans 12:21


Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
---John 3:16 KJV

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust
---Matthew 5:45 KJV

"But I tell you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you. To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer also the other; and from him who takes away your cloak, don't withhold your coat also. Give to everyone who asks you, and don't ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.
"As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive back as much. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
---Luke 6:27-36

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by adjensen
If Gnosticism is right, then Judaism is wrong, because two contradictory things cannot both be right (though they can, of course, both be wrong.) If Judaism is wrong, then Christ, as a Jew, is wrong, and being a follower of Christ has no more merit than being a follower of anyone who proclaims "be good to others". There's no point, in fact, of being a follower of anyone -- just be good to others and be done with it.

What an arrogant statement to make my friend. You are seriously in ere here. Do you not see what YOU are doing?

You are telling GOD how to speak to HIS children. You are telling HIM what tongue to use. Shame on you to think you can tell God how to manifest to his children. Shame on you for thinking you can tell God who IS his children.

What you are doing is condemning me for defending Christ from heretical teaching. You are claiming that the Gnostics, who utterly rejected God, as he was testified to being by Christ himself, are simply another avenue to find God, which is nonsense.

I'm not telling God how to do anything. I'm telling you that defending heresy and rejecting Christ is not the path to salvation.

He gave One Law to his children because he loves them ALL. That Law is to love one another.

You seem to be conveniently forgetting that Christ gave us TWO laws, not one. By denying him, and claiming that a radically different view of God, which is contrary to Christ, and contrary to scripture, is perfectly legitimate, you are violating, intentionally, the first of those two -- to love God with all your heart.

How can a person who exhibits such disregard for his word claim to be a follower of Christ?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well the bible was written in hebrew I'd say that's about as precise as it can be.

Originally posted by Unity_99
Herein lies the one part of the Gospel of Thomas I had to pray over and took into sungazing. I had answers given that relate immediately to what you have posted above. The intent. In fact this is also metaphor, so as to hide the true meaning again, and I feel is one of the major distortions that some mystery schools who follow this stumble over.

www.gnosis.org...

14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

What came here to me is that he was pointing out that it was the intent of the heart and that those he was speaking to, they were the "you", meaning he knew their hearts.

Oh yes, he knew their hearts my friend. Look at those passages again. This time, imagine "You" being your ego. If you do those things for "YOU" you will be condemned. Do not do good works for YOU, do them for God.

In other words, let there be a higher purpose to all your actions.

But, that's just my view.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by adjensen


And you still dont know what I'm talkin about maybe you don't remember saying. "I don't know why you brought that up I'm not jewish.

So I said It's called an example. Go back and re read. Not that hard!

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Funny, they said the same thing to Christ. If Christ was a heretic, I consider it an honor to be in his company.

You're lying again. Show me where in the scripture the Jews called Jesus a heretic.

He did not commit suicide.

You're right, He committed Deicide. Let me show you what Christ actually said on the matter:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:17-18

How can you claim to follow Christ, yet be so ignorant on so many levels to the different things HE Himself says? No man took Jesus's life, He freely layed it down for His friends.

He had to be first judged by the Priesthood, then he was judged by the Government, and lastly, he was judged by his own followers.

The Priesthood broke numerous laws concerning Christ at His trial. The priesthood didn't follow God's laws for a trial. As far as the Romans go, Pilate said SEVEN times "I find no fault with this man."

Yes, his own followers sat back and watched it be done. They did not want to risk their lives in his defence. The story plainly shows them all denying him.

Peter denied Him. It was NOT Christ's will for any of them to try and stop Him giving His life for us. In fact, again, you're ignorant to what Christ said. Remember in the garden when peter said he'd never let the authorities take Jesus and kill Him?????

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." ~ Matthew 16:23

Why did Jesus call Peter "satan" and tell him that he was "offensive"? Because Peter said:

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee."

Does the thought ever cross your mind that His disciples did nothing to stop Him from giving His life because they were present when Jesus REBUKED Peter for saying he would not let it happen? Do you even read your Bible?

That WAS the Sin he died for, man's Judgement!!!!!!

100% wrong. Christ died for ALL man's sin. In fact, Christ "became sin" on the cross, and it "pleased" the Father to crush Him. Again, this is all scripture.

Open your eyes and see what kind of world we have created by our inferior judgement.

That's why you judge BY THE WORD OF GOD and not by our own understanding.

Originally posted by Vicarious10000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well the bible was written in hebrew I'd say that's about as precise as it can be.

I agree Hebrew is precise, but I was quoting the New Testament which was written in Koine Greek.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're a heretic.

Funny, they said the same thing to Christ. If Christ was a heretic, I consider it an honor to be in his company.

Actually, Christ was not accused of heresy, he was accused of blasphemy. And, in either case, he wasn't guilty, unless you don't believe that he really was God.

You are, by definition, a heretic, because you are teaching things that are contrary to Christianity. It might seem to you that there is no harm in what you are saying, but you are intentionally trying to lead people away from what Christ himself testifies is the only way to salvation.

Originally posted by Vicarious10000
reply to post by adjensen

 

And you still dont know what I'm talkin about maybe you don't remember saying. "I don't know why you brought that up I'm not jewish.

So I said It's called an example. Go back and re read. Not that hard!

Uh, okay. Who cares? The salient point had nothing to do with who is Jewish, rather the bit about Gnostic enlightenment -- care to respond to that instead?

Originally posted by adjensen
What you are doing is condemning me for defending Christ from heretical teaching.

I am not condemning you, I am speaking the truth. The reason is because Christ did not want defenders because they always end up using the sword. Didn't someone lose an ear? Could they not hear the message being told here? Let's heal that ear back on and hear the message in that tale.

Christ did not want defenders. Man is incapable of defending Christ without resorting to the sword.

Originally posted by adjensen
You are claiming that the Gnostics, who utterly rejected God, as he was testified to being by Christ himself, are simply another avenue to find God, which is nonsense.

If it was nonsense, don't you trust that God is capable of correcting it? Is God so feable that he needs you to clarify the matter for him? Why can't they be right, and you be right as well. What is wrong with different?

Originally posted by adjensen
I'm telling you that defending heresy and rejecting Christ is not the path to salvation.

I agree with you here, absolutely.

Originally posted by adjensen
You seem to be conveniently forgetting that Christ gave us TWO laws, not one. By denying him, and claiming that a radically different view of God, which is contrary to Christ, and contrary to scripture, is perfectly legitimate, you are violating, intentionally, the first of those two -- to love God with all your heart.

He gave two laws to those who needed two laws. Those who could not understand what was meant by "The Kingdom of God is within you.

To those who understood that that meant that God dwelled within all of us, and by loving your neighbor you are loving yourself, Christ gave the one commandment of, Love one another.

33Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Originally posted by adjensen
How can a person who exhibits such disregard for his word claim to be a follower of Christ?

I am hoping you get it soon my friend. Christ didn't read from the scripture. He pulled in allegories that people understood. He told the truth simply from his heart. He didn't need to recite the Torah. He was the Torah.

Just saying,

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Thank you, that added even more dimension to the answers I got. That was the big stumbling block for me because my whole draw into Christianity (having both Christians and staunch athiests and science majors in the family so I was not raised religiously) was feeling the Presence of Spirit, in the words of my grandmothers bible, pre-teen years. I then read the whole thing and was horrified. Not my cup of tea, so much was not Spirit at all, but seemed to relate to wars, and generals, and control of people, but, there was still Presence in so many passages. Mind you I can feel that Light, in many other readings as well. In fact, the Light rejoices with all expressions of Light. Light = Light. Love = Love. Peace = Peace, and its just trying to split hairs to own the truth or think one is fully in it if they follow one religion or listen to one set of experts on this.

So when I encountered that my reaction was to not look at that gospel any further, but I was confused, because I had felt the Presence of the Spirit of Love and Peace. Which is why I finally took the most unacceptable passage into prayer, suspecting it didn't mean what it appeared to be saying.

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Thank you, that added even more dimension to the answers I got. That was the big stumbling block for me because my whole draw into Christianity (having both Christians and staunch athiests and science majors in the family so I was not raised religiously) was feeling the Presence of Spirit, in the words of my grandmothers bible, pre-teen years. I then read the whole thing and was horrified. Not my cup of tea, so much was not Spirit at all, but seemed to relate to wars, and generals, and control of people, but, there was still Presence in so many passages. Mind you I can feel that Light, in many other readings as well. In fact, the Light rejoices with all expressions of Light. Light = Light. Love = Love. Peace = Peace, and its just trying to split hairs to own the truth or think one is fully in it if they follow one religion or listen to one set of experts on this.

So when I encountered that my reaction was to not look at that gospel any further, but I was confused, because I had felt the Presence of the Spirit of Love and Peace. Which is why I finally took the most unacceptable passage into prayer, suspecting it didn't mean what it appeared to be saying.

My friend, there is the Light of God in everything in this creation. There is no evil. The sense of evil comes from within, it is fear and uncertainty that causes us to judge. That and past bad experiences. The fear and uncertainty are lessons about ourselves, the whole species. If you find something you do not like, look for the good in it. It is there, but you have to crawl through some mud to get to it.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by adjensen


I actually don't care about none of that. That's all you! I was just letting you know that not all people who say they are enlightened are saying only they can access knowledge. That's like saying anyone who has sinned is going to hell.

Well sorry to tell you but everyone who has ever lived sinned in some way or another. So just clearing it up for you.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're a heretic.

Funny, they said the same thing to Christ. If Christ was a heretic, I consider it an honor to be in his company.

Actually, Christ was not accused of heresy, he was accused of blasphemy. And, in either case, he wasn't guilty, unless you don't believe that he really was God.

You are, by definition, a heretic, because you are teaching things that are contrary to Christianity. It might seem to you that there is no harm in what you are saying, but you are intentionally trying to lead people away from what Christ himself testifies is the only way to salvation.

Let him defend his own statements. I'd really like to see how Christ was called a "heretic" considering it was not a word until Irenaeus coined the term.