Mayan & Assyrian Connection: the mysteries of Cetho Temple, Sukuh & Penataran Temple in Indonesia , page 1

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Topic started on 3-3-2011 @ 12:49 PM by nagabonar

Hi Ats,

Credit: much of the information I am posting here, I have found on an Indonesian Language PDF file, made by Mr Agung Bimo Sutejo and Mr Timmy Hartadi Turangga Seta found here: link

I took the liberty to translate parts of it, add some own information such as introduction of Majapahit Kingdom and constructed this thread by only focusing on Cetho, Sukuh & penataran temple , although the PDF file talks about a lot more. The PDF file also connects the temples with Sumerian, but after some research i decided to put it in connection with Assyrians since it is more in time line with the Mayans (in addition I found quite a lot of other interesting information on other sites due to leads provided from the PDF file, which lead me to Ancient UFO's reliefs , which are not commonly known, as well as some other leads in connection with Plato, Atlantis in Indonesia, and bird like humanoids but this belongs to another thread on another day)

As the title says, via this thread I am trying to point out that there is some big coincidence in the similarity of architecture and also some statues, as well as reliefs of the temples mentioned with the Ancient Mayan civilization, as well as Assyrian (could also be Babylonians or Sumerians - I am not an expert

) civilization . These temples have been build (supposedly!) around 1300 AD by the Hindu kingdom of Majapahit, which was a vast archipelagic empire based on the island of Java, Indonesia from 1293 to around 1500(wiki majapahit). This kingdom has build hundreds of temples and palaces in an almost always similar architecture. Why "almost"? well, there are these following two temples which have a totally different style from the usual Majapahit architecture, located on the mountain of Lawu in central jawa at 1400 meters above sea level, both temples only a couple of kilometers apart. It should be mentioned that former Indonesian President Soeharto made some much criticized renovations and added an entrance not in line with the original architecture of those temples, and a couple of new statues. However, the original "pyramids" are still there and these form the heart of those temples. Both temples are still in use for praying today by remnants of the local Hindu population:

Cetho Temple

cetho temple

Sukuh Temple

sukuh temple wiki

Notice the similarity with Mayan temples? here is what wiki says about it:

The main structure of Candi Sukuh is like no other ancient edifice; a truncated truncated pyramid reminiscent of a Mayan monument and surrounded by monoliths and meticulously carved life-sized figures. A stone stairway rises through the front side of the pyramid to its summit. It is not known what the monument's unique shape was intended to symbolise. One theory is that it represents a mountain, however, why it replaced pre-existing forms of ancient Javanese temple design. There is no evidence that the main building supported a wooden structur

And there is more.....

A lot of Indonesians Archaeologists say that Cetho temple has been build during the Majapahit times. however there are a lot of question marks surrounding this statement. For example, the Cetho temple has been built with river stone, although most temples during Majapahit times were build with red sand stone. Also the reliefs and statues are very simply carved if compared to the usual Majapahit reliefs and statues at other places, which were done very detailed. This shows that Cetho temple should be even older.

Also some statues at Cetho temple are not showing a traditional Javanese person, but rather an Assyrian!

notice the beard, jewelery ("watch" and earrings -ancient javanese used sticks as earrings) big eyes, and back of head...I can assure you this is not a Javanese statue, and you won't find a statue like this in Ancient Indonesian cultures again. Here are some images of Assyrian for comparison:

Coincidence made by a crazed ancient artist ? there is still more to come....

Relief at Cetho temple (top) and Sukuh temple (bottom):

Relief at Villahermosa, Mexico:

And one more time our Assyrian buddy at Cetho temple:

and a relief at Monte Alban, Qaxaca, Mexico:

The Question: is there a connection between the Old Javanese, Old Mesopotanians and Mayans? lets find out....

At Sukuh temple, there are several humanoid bird statues positioned around it. most of them have lost their heads, but luckily there is still one bird man statue intact (as well as one bird man relief):

Sukuh temple bird-human statue:

Mayan Bird Man:

Mesopotamian Annunaki with a nice Rolex, like the Assyrian statue at Cetho temple:

I start to think that instead of Reptillians, we should focus our search on the human birds ?

PART 2 : The Temple of Penataran

the temple of Penataran is located at Kelud mountain in east Java and has been build between the 12th and 15th century by the Majapahit Kingdom: wiki . It is the largest ancient hindu temple in east java. (fyi, the largest hindu temple of the world is Borobudur temple in central java, where I (nagabonar) personally went with my wifey and kid before in hunt for UFO reliefs - this will be another thread because so far I only found one UFO relief at Borobudur out of thousands of reliefs available)

there are loads of reliefs here which seem to show a "certain" connection between Mayans and Ancient Indonesians, it is a pity though that most of the reliefs did not stand the test of time, but luckily some are still recognizable:

the first head seems to show a Han Chinese, the second head a Cambodian Champa, the third head a Mayan, the fourth an Indonesian, and the two persons on their knees with the scull cap, could it be ancient Jews?

the following reliefs show soldiers attacking something. Notice the headdresses - those are definitely not Majapahit soldiers. You might say " well Mayans did not have elephants" ...but I come back to that a little below.

and here is another hit: an american cactus ! not an endemic Indonesian plant

In regards to elephants and Mayans...lets have a look at some reliefs and a statue which originate from Copan, a Mayan Kingdom in Honduras:

and here is an image of a Copan warrior:

Following another similarity. Left shows a relief of a demon at Penataran temple, middle is a mask still in use by Balinese hindus today, and far right is a statue from mexico city, which archeologists are saying is depicting an ancient Aztec King:

And last but not least, an entrance guardian statue, left is from Penataran temple where one can find such statues in all sizes from small to big, the statue on the right is a small one, originating from the Mayans:

So ATS, what do you think .... could there really be a connection between the ancient Indonesian kingdoms, Mesopotamians and as often discussed, the Mayans ? Did the Mayans somehow managed to come to Asia, taking into consideration that elephants have died off in the Americas 10,000 years ago? Or was it the other way around, Majapahit soldiers managed to bring an army to the Americas even before Bartolomeu Dias rounded the Cape of Good Hope? After all it is proven that the predeccesors of Majapahit, the Srivijaya kingdom (7th - 13th century) ships managed to sail 3300 miles to the wedt, to Madagaskar. But still - the Pacific Ocean is sure a big pool of water! And what about the humanoid birds.....is it pure coincidence that each of the mentioned culture, each on a different side of the globe and at the same time, have a similar deity?

Cheers!

edit on 3-3-2011 by nagabonar because: typo

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 12:55 PM by elfulanozutan0

I find intriguing that the more you look into the history of ancient civilzations from around the world that you will find more and more "coincedences" pointing that these "primitave" civilaztions seemed to have a common source of knowledge and culture.

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 01:05 PM by nagabonar

reply to post by elfulanozutan0

indeed as far flung it may sound, but maybe the Sumerians (which predated all the civs mentioned) did have an influence around the globe....

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 01:08 PM by LibertyLover

The shape of the temples is interesting and does remind one of Mayan temples. The statue on the other hand does not look Assyrian at all. To me it looks very much like the statues from the ancient Harappan civilization found at Harappa and Mohenjo Daro. Still it's very interesting. Thank you for posting.

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 01:17 PM by nagabonar

Originally posted by LibertyLover
The statue on the other hand does not look Assyrian at all. To me it looks very much like the statues from the ancient Harappan civilization found at Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

thanks for the input....again I am not an expert and most of it got from the source file mentioned. It could make sense though, since Harappa is originating from Pakistan and certainly closer to Indonesia, then Assyria. A;though a Harappan statue looks quite different:

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 02:03 PM by SLAYER69

reply to post by nagabonar

S & F

This is a very interesting comparison.

Bookmarked and squirreled away for future reference

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 02:21 PM by Blackmarketeer

Without going into any great detail or specific instances, I think what you are seeing here (and in many of the "crossover" cultural threads) are depictions of archetypal building types or mythological beings.

An archetypal pyramidal temple has sloping sides and some demarcated entrance. They tend to look the same from Mesoamerica to China to Indonesia. The Egyptians achieved the purest of this form, while the Indonesians made it the most elaborate.

Same with a "bird-man" mythical deity. It's an archetype of "bird" + "man", and probably predates recorded history in many cultures. Even Neanderthals have now been recognized as decorating themselves with feathers, it seems it's another "archetype" to depict a feathered man or bird+man. (see Kandinsky's thread here)

Another long held theory was that the Mayan depiction of "elephants" came from contact with Egypt or Africa, but those were morelikely based on contact between humans and a now-extinct gomphotheres, which paleo-indians hunted. (url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread654512/pg1]New discovery places "elephants" in contact with ancient Mesoamericans[/url])

Obviously the Assyrian reliefs resemble earlier Sumerian depictions, the Assyrians borrowed much of their mythology and styles from them. I don't see that the depictions of bracelets and armlets worn by Assyrians is something unique only to them, it's human nature to decorate oneself, and the wrist/bracelet is a very common theme.

Same with the bearded man, I for one don't see the Indonesian bearing that great a resemblance to the Assyrians, other than depicting a bearded man. Both peoples were dark haired, olive-complected.

I think to indicate a clear and concise connection between two civilizations you need to show their languages or writing were the same or one based on the other, if Egyptians were in America then why weren't Mayans writing in Egyptian hieroglyphics?

I do think humans hot around much more than is yet recognized, but for one culture of civilization to have a profound impact on another, there has to be sustained contact in sufficient numbers.

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 02:29 PM by Versa

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
I think to indicate a clear and concise connection between two civilizations you need to show their languages or writing were the same or one based on the other, if Egyptians were in America then why weren't Mayans writing in Egyptian hieroglyphics?

While I agree with a lot of what your saying the Mayans were using a form of hieroglyphics. Although this also seems to be a natural step in the evolution of writing.

S&F OP for a really interesting thread!

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 03:17 PM by bigfatfurrytexan

This is a very intriguing thread. However, as mentioned by a previous poster, there were elephant-like animals in the Americas, rendering that portion of the evidence somewhat questionable. They dug up a stegamastodon in Columbia that died only 6,000 years ago.

The best evidence I see here are the reliefs. The depictions of humans from all around the world.

Good thread. Thanks for sharing.

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 03:44 PM by Harte

The "Mayan Elephants" are actually Macaws. You can plainly see the little scales around the eyes, just like Macaws have.

Additionally, There is an inscription at that statue that woos never, ever relate. It says that King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord."

That's enough for me.

You can see the Macaws once someone points them out.

Harte

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 04:14 PM by Versa

Originally posted by Harte
The "Mayan Elephants" are actually Macaws. You can plainly see the little scales around the eyes, just like Macaws have.

Additionally, There is an inscription at that statue that woos never, ever relate. It says that King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord."

That's enough for me.

You can see the Macaws once someone points them out.

Harte

Could you link a pic please? I'm not sure which image your referring to. All I get when I search are sketches like this one which are probably missing out bits and/or including bits that fit the theory.

edit on 3-3-2011 by Versa because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 07:30 PM by Byrd

Originally posted by Versa

Originally posted by Harte
The "Mayan Elephants" are actually Macaws. You can plainly see the little scales around the eyes, just like Macaws have.

Additionally, There is an inscription at that statue that woos never, ever relate. It says that King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord."

Could you link a pic please? I'm not sure which image your referring to. All I get when I search are sketches like this one which are probably missing out bits and/or including bits that fit the theory.

What happened was that the first Europeans who recorded this new culture decided that the macaws might be elephants. Once they got this into their heads, they drew them as elephants. This sort of cultural reinterpretation is a real problem when you study drawings of cultural artifacts by people who aren't familiar with the culture. Photographs are more reliable.

The object is Copan's "Stela B" but you can see that "Stela N" also has similar designs and forms:
www.delange.org...

Here's a photo of them:
beachcombing.files.wordpress.com...

You can see drawings of the glyphs for macaw and stylized macaws here

Drawing of a macaw warrior showing how the birds are positioned

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 07:55 PM by Byrd

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Without going into any great detail or specific instances, I think what you are seeing here (and in many of the "crossover" cultural threads) are depictions of archetypal building types or mythological beings.

I agree.

The big missing element, though, is time. The Assyrians lived around 1,000 BC... this temple was built more than 2500 years after that. If they had been in contact with the culture or influenced it, we would have seen Assyrian elements (and cuneiform writing) showing up almost immediately. Rulers love laying down laws and there's a great appeal in having their deeds and words recorded. When Sanskrit came to Indonesia, it was immediately adopted... and did not replace another written language.

It's true that this temple was buit about the time that the Mayans were building temples, but there's no evidence of contact (trade goods) between the two civilizations... and none between these two and civilizations that rose and died a thousand years before these were born.

Same with the bearded man, I for one don't see the Indonesian bearing that great a resemblance to the Assyrians, other than depicting a bearded man. Both peoples were dark haired, olive-complected.

More than that, what's missing is similar cultural elements. The Assyrians are longhaired and wear hoops of gold dangling from their earlobes. The Indonesian man is short haired, with a close cropped beard, and has ear plugs in his ears.

I think to indicate a clear and concise connection between two civilizations you need to show their languages or writing were the same or one based on the other, if Egyptians were in America then why weren't Mayans writing in Egyptian hieroglyphics?

Exactly. They'd probably have jumped on it, too, since the Egyptian hieroglyphics are much easier to write and inscribe than the Mayan hieroglypics. And Demotic is even easier.

reply posted on 3-3-2011 @ 09:09 PM by nagabonar

Evey one. However, I do disagree on some points brought forward here

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Without going into any great detail or specific instances, I think what you are seeing here (and in many of the "crossover" cultural threads) are depictions of archetypal building types or mythological beings.

An archetypal pyramidal temple has sloping sides and some demarcated entrance. They tend to look the same from Mesoamerica to China to Indonesia. The Egyptians achieved the purest of this form, while the Indonesians made it the most elaborate.

there are hundreds of ancient temples, scattered throughout Indonesian archipelago, but the only 2 which resemble the Mayan pyramids are the two temples mentioned, which happen to be very close by each other. Archetypal? Surely not for the old Indonesian Kingdoms which ruled a vast stretch of south east asia.

Obviously the Assyrian reliefs resemble earlier Sumerian depictions, the Assyrians borrowed much of their mythology and styles from them. I don't see that the depictions of bracelets and armlets worn by Assyrians is something unique only to them, it's human nature to decorate oneself, and the wrist/bracelet is a very common theme.

It would make it even more interesting if the statue is actually depicting a Sumerian isn't it? and how about those earrings... as mentioned the old Javanese did not wear such.

Same with the bearded man, I for one don't see the Indonesian bearing that great a resemblance to the Assyrians, other than depicting a bearded man. Both peoples were dark haired, olive-complected.

Find me even one other ancient Indonesian Statue with a beard...there is none and I am living in Indonesia for 15 years now. Generally Indonesians don't like to grow beards and even in ancient times like to keep themselves very clean and neat, as it is the case with most of the extinct Asian civilizations.

I do think humans hot around much more than is yet recognized, but for one culture of civilization to have a profound impact on another, there has to be sustained contact in sufficient numbers.

the question here is not whether these cultures had a profound impact of each other, but rather whether these cultures even came in contact with each other, considering the vast distances between them in Ancient terms.

edit on 3-3-2011 by nagabonar because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-3-2011 @ 02:26 AM by Blackmarketeer

When I mentioned "archetypes" it was to illustrate that archetypal buildings don't stray too far from their basic forms, that is after all what makes them archetypal. A basic pyramidal form looks similar the world over, it's in the details and styling that you see their uniqueness. You have two buildings from two unrelated civilizations that only have a vague passing resemblance to one another. The purest pyramidal form is what you have in Egypt, if you start tacking on steps and terraces you get those of Mesoamerica or even China.

The same with the bearded Javanese man - why not claim it represents a connection to every other culture that has produced a statue of a bearded man? I don't think it even resembles those of the Assyrian, I see more differences than resemblances. Sometimes you have representations that are outside the norm. Consider an Egyptian statuette of "Prince Rahotep" (Khufu's brother), he was depicted with a gold chain around his neck, a very modern looking mustache, and a full head of hair, it's uncommon, but that doesn't mean we should infer ancient Egyptians had contact with 80's era porn stars.

reply posted on 4-3-2011 @ 07:18 AM by ancientthunder

reply to post by nagabonar

many thanks for this post I find it much more than interesting and am very glad that you have shared them. I have been to mexico a couple of times and once again it feels like nobody was interested in what she had to offer.
This is an eagle warrior from a town in malinalco.

[img] upload.wikimedia.org... _Templo_Mayor%29.JPG[/img]
The place had a great energy to it, but for me it felt like the purpose of the place was lost in time. This is something i feel in quiet a lot of places. It kind of feels disappointing that what was really going on it not that evident.

[img] www.esacademic.com...[/img]

this representation is also one of my favorites, I love the colors and the feeling of the warrior.

[img] www.esacademic.com...[/img]

thanks again look forward to anything you send.

reply posted on 6-3-2011 @ 02:55 PM by Harte

Originally posted by nagabonar
Mesopotamian Annunaki with a nice Rolex, like the Assyrian statue at Cetho temple:

I start to think that instead of Reptillians, we should focus our search on the human birds ?

The bird headed one is an Apkallu, not one of the Anunna (Babylonian - Anunnaki.)

There were seven Apkallus, the first of which was Ea (Oannes - maybe you've heard of him.) Oannes was the fish-man-looking one.

The Apkallus were sent here to help humans progress in knowledge and their myth eventually led to the Djinn, as well as what we today call Angels.

They are also known as the "Seven Sages." I think Tolkien appropriated the idea for Lord of the Rings. IIRC, there were seven Istari, weren't there?
Gandalf was one of them.

Harte

reply posted on 6-3-2011 @ 03:50 PM by Versa

reply to post by Byrd

Thanks for the links

I'm struggling to see anything in them at all at the moment but I'm tired

reply posted on 9-3-2011 @ 01:16 AM by aRogue

Great thread and fantastic research. Keep em coming please. Star & Flag.

reply posted on 10-3-2011 @ 08:36 AM by Lynda101

reply to post by nagabonar

Thank you for such a fascinating and interesting post I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I wonder if there wasn't a great deal of travelling going on by different groups of people. I read somewhere that the South Seas seafarers had incredible navigation skills. They knew just by watching the way the wave broke against their craft that there was an island over the horizon - they literally 'read' the sea. These skills are dead to us now and with today's technology probably hard for most of us to imagine. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that people have travelled, shared knowledge and traded with other over considerably larger distances than we have thought up till now. Again thanks for that post.

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