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Originally posted by Klassified
You know the worst part about this story, DD? It is we the people who will suffer for their failure.
They will sure enough double or triple their intimidation, groping and molestation tactics after this.
Passengers beware. It's about to get a whole lot worse.
Originally posted by Gnarly
If TSA has been taking our rights away, can someone provide me a list? I mean, you guys keep going on and on about how they keep taking rights away, yet I don't see any rights being taken away.
I want an actual list. I want the real names of each and every right, and a full description of what that right allows me to do, and a full description of exactly how it was taken away.
I GUARANTEE NOT A SINGLE PERSON WILL BE ABLE TO DO SO. IF NOT, THEN I AM CORRECT IN CALLING YOU SHEEP.
Originally posted by Gnarly
Unreasonable searches? What makes it unreasonable to search someone for boarding a plane? Seriously, can you honestly say you think it's unreasonable to be searched before you board a plane?
Is it your property that you are flying on? No.
Are there dozens of other people around you? Yes.
So because you do not own the plane in any possible bit, and because it's a public place, getting searched is not unreasonable.
You have the right to refuse service to someone if you own a business. You also have the right NOT TO BUY A TICKET KNOWING YOU ARE GOING TO GET SEARCHED. You are clearly, knowingly, buying a ticket that will require a search to be able to fully use it.
Again, is the plane your property? Is the airport? Do you own a single centimeter of the it?
Back to the quote you provided: I've already covered that in my earlier post. You notice how I say there's more than one single perspective on what someone might view being secure in their person might be? I bet you didn't. There's other people who want to feel secure traveling. If no one cared, there would be no driving laws. Yet, however, because people do actually like to live not in fear, we implement laws and enforce them for the general benefit of the society. Not for some temporary safety.
Do you honestly expect every single person on board with you to think just like you? If so, you are way ignorant. Those people might be freaking out of their minds. Not everyone feels safe being around a bunch of people. Do you always feel secure on every bus you take? Regular people get out of hand with each other on buses, it actually does happen. People fight and kill each other on buses, and it can happen on planes. Some people might even have a heart attack knowing that someone brought an item such as box-cutters on board. Think of the havoc that would cause.
With a planet that has billions of people on it, there are going to be more and more confrontations happening each and every day. Or we could just drive drunk and not care.
If you were, say, to be searched in your own without a warrant, that would unreasonable. That's in your privacy, not out in public. Even in public, we still have our privacy, though we lose that privacy as the public body is squeezed together. It's inevitable. You can't ride a bus and say someone can't sit here because you are uncomfortable with them sitting there. It's not your bus, or your seat. You're just using a service that someone else is providing.
Edit: If you were searched before boarding your own private jet, that would be unreasonable. Is the jumbo plane your private jet? Please answer.
Originally posted by DimensionalDetective
reply to post by Gnarly
Boy, talk about the epitome of irony.
You're actually DEFENDING the TSA's right to fondle and take nude pictures of american citizens, and calling US sheep?!?
LMAO!!!
I suppose next you'll be trying to convince us all how fantastic it will be for them to expand their operations onto trains , cars and public venues too, eh? Such as they have concluded they want to?
epic.org...
Um... It is NOT a "public" plane. It is a plane owned by a corporation. If the CORPORATION was paying the millions (or likely, billions) to do searches, fine, but then I would not use that airline. Right now, *I* am paying to have my body assaulted against the Bill of Rights.
True. But it's the GOVERNMENT doing the searching for the CORPORATION. And, actually, I, personally DON'T buy a ticket. I refuse to be assaulted by my GOVERNMENT.
Not the plane. Nor does the GOVERNMENT own it. The airport? I suspect I own a stake in it as a tax-payer... But that still does not give the GOVERNMENT the right to strip me of the rights listed in the Bill of Rights. In fact, the Bill of Rights trumps the GOVERNMENT.
Lessee... Secure from unreasonable searches and seizures... It is NOT just "secure." It is secure from unreasonable searches and seizures. What could that mean...? Oh. It means that the GOVERNMENT cannot search me or seize my property unreasonably. And we get RID of 'laws" that are UNCONSTITUTIONAL - or we should if we are to support the foundations of the US of A.
What data can you provide that all of a sudden society will have an upswing of more and more confrontations happening each and every day? And why does that make it right to eviscerate the Bill of Rights? Again, Benny Franklin would see you as undeserving of either liberty or safety.
Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say that I am protected against unreasonable searches and seizures ONLY at home. It says I have that right PERIOD. The GOVERNMENT cannot do that and uphold our Constitution. You want to shred the Constitution so that you feel safe??? Benny is rolling in his grave.
If the GOVERNMENT searches me - and *I* pay for that search, with the odds of a problem being lower than winning the lottery... THAT IS UNREASONABLE.
Originally posted by Gnarly
reply to post by Amaterasu
Do you not understand what public means?
Here you go.
Notice how it says group of people.
Um... It is NOT a "public" plane. It is a plane owned by a corporation. If the CORPORATION was paying the millions (or likely, billions) to do searches, fine, but then I would not use that airline. Right now, *I* am paying to have my body assaulted against the Bill of Rights.
There are dozens of other people sitting in the seats right next to you on that plane. It's a public place by definition. When you stress the word "I", I do not understand. Yet, you are PAYING to be searched, not assaulted.
In case you don't know what the word means.
See how the word says attacked? Physically attacked? If the TSA agents were assaulting people, there would be lawsuits. People would actually do something about it. Since these agents don't actually assault people, we don't hear of such news, now do we?
True. But it's the GOVERNMENT doing the searching for the CORPORATION. And, actually, I, personally DON'T buy a ticket. I refuse to be assaulted by my GOVERNMENT.
So, who buys the ticket for you? You could always choose another way to travel. You have that right. You are not forced to board a plane. You still have that right.
Not the plane. Nor does the GOVERNMENT own it. The airport? I suspect I own a stake in it as a tax-payer... But that still does not give the GOVERNMENT the right to strip me of the rights listed in the Bill of Rights. In fact, the Bill of Rights trumps the GOVERNMENT.
So you DON'T own the plane. The government doesn't own the plane, but they sure as hell own the space they fly in. So they kind of get to make sure their airspace is how they see fit. Do you have any stocks in the air company you are using? Well, you are a customer and get to use a seat for a few hours, I'll give you that much. They don't have the right to strip you of your rights. You choose to get searched on your own free will.
Lessee... Secure from unreasonable searches and seizures... It is NOT just "secure." It is secure from unreasonable searches and seizures. What could that mean...? Oh. It means that the GOVERNMENT cannot search me or seize my property unreasonably. And we get RID of 'laws" that are UNCONSTITUTIONAL - or we should if we are to support the foundations of the US of A.
Is it unreasonable to think that people could hijack a plane and drive it into a building to kill people? No. It may be unlikely, but it's not unreasonable. History has shown that people kill other people, for whatever reason that may be.
What data can you provide that all of a sudden society will have an upswing of more and more confrontations happening each and every day? And why does that make it right to eviscerate the Bill of Rights? Again, Benny Franklin would see you as undeserving of either liberty or safety.
Do you understand probability? As the population increases, there is lass space between each person. More and more people, less and less space. With less space, the activity that happens is happening in a smaller and smaller space. Thus increasing the probability that one motion is going to interact with another motion, whatever the result is. As more and more nations develop, more and more enemies are made. If we were the only nation, we wouldn't have threats from other nations. There is about a hundred-ninety-five countries in the world. Conflict is GOING to happen as it is HUMAN NATURE.
Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say that I am protected against unreasonable searches and seizures ONLY at home. It says I have that right PERIOD. The GOVERNMENT cannot do that and uphold our Constitution. You want to shred the Constitution so that you feel safe??? Benny is rolling in his grave.
Do you understand what privacy means? You have the right to privacy in your home, yes. You don't have the full right to privacy outside. You don't lose the entire right, just some of it. You pay taxes, don't you? You give up privacy by doing that. Apply for a job? You give up privacy for that. Ride a plane? Uh oh, you can't have full privacy! Don't you also give up privacy rights when you go see the doctor? Or why should I have to give up my right to be secure in my person to be secure in my person!??!?
If the GOVERNMENT searches me - and *I* pay for that search, with the odds of a problem being lower than winning the lottery... THAT IS UNREASONABLE.
The word you are looking for is unlikely.
Notice how one deals with reasoning, and the other deals with probability?
Originally posted by Amaterasu
Originally posted by Gnarly
If TSA has been taking our rights away, can someone provide me a list? I mean, you guys keep going on and on about how they keep taking rights away, yet I don't see any rights being taken away.
I am supposed to be protected against unreasonable search and seizure. They are assaulting me with unreasonable search and if I have a bottle of water - they seize it (very unreasonable). Why is it unreasonable? Because the chance of having a "terrorist" issue is about 1 in 1,000,000,000,000. Sorry if you feel you are "safe" being stripped of you protection from unreasonable search and seizure. I absolutely do NOT.
I want an actual list. I want the real names of each and every right, and a full description of what that right allows me to do, and a full description of exactly how it was taken away.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Or is the Bill of Rights not good enough for you?
I GUARANTEE NOT A SINGLE PERSON WILL BE ABLE TO DO SO. IF NOT, THEN I AM CORRECT IN CALLING YOU SHEEP.
Um... Bad guarantee. You are not at all correct. In fact... I suspect you might be the sheep here.
Originally posted by Gnarly
I still don't have a list.
I guess none of these people want to protect this country. Just like everyone in the FBI, the CIA, let's just include everything, including the army. Cops are bad guys, firefighters are bad guys.